das Monkey

I haven't spoken on this, since it will just create more argument, but who am I to shy away from an argument? I see many reasons for it to be in the top 5, but I think it's very dubious to claim that it was the greatest show in the history of television. A show like All in the Family is just as funny, just as groundbreaking (in fact more), dominated the ratings for almost a decade, and actually helped effect positive social change in the real world. Not only that, it spawned three hugely successful spin-offs, each of which was individually groundbreaking in its own way, and in toto create a most impressive body of work that defined television of the entire 1970s and a good portion of the 1980s. Talk about defining an era.

Now if you want to talk about a format that is copied and never equalled ... I Love Lucy and The Honeymooners literally defined the sit-com format. Probably 90% of all sit-coms have tried to copy what they did, and precious few even come close to the consistent level of quality these two shows produced.

So, while to many of us Seinfeld may arguably be the funniest show ever, I cannot justify it being the best show of all time. Where does it fit? I dunno. 2nd? 3rd? 4th? It's certainly one of the greats, but I think it's a cop-out for TV Guide to proclaim it the best television program of all time. If the best show of all time is to be a sit-com, I see a much stronger case for All in the Family. But like I said in my first post, there are a few things in the ordering of this list that make me cringe.

das

Red Dog

I agree. I have always thought that the 70s was the heyday of television sit-coms and All in the Family was king of the hill back then.

Tscott

They put that show staring the guy from Wings that was based on the Harrison Ford movie on this list!?!? That show barely lasted a season!



But, in all seriousness, where the heck is Homicide?

das Monkey

Very good question.

das

Red Dog

I was very surprised that Dallas was not on the list. Not only did it have perhaps the most villainous character in tv history, but it was a top-5 program for 7-8 years. It was also the first prime-time soap opera and it paved the way for future prime-time soaps and the serial format (storylines over the course of weeks) in general.

das Monkey

We were actually just talking about that in my office. Dallas was a fairly unique show and a dominant force for much or the 80s. For a show to garner such high ratings from late Friday timeslots is impressive enough. God knows how many copycat shows have failed to achieve the level of Dallas.

das

palebluedot

\


Ah...what do you know.

I totally agree with you that The Honeymooners created the groundwork that all others try to imitate and usually fail at doing. I think Seinfeld came very close as the Honeymooners was mostly ad-lib if not all and Seinfeld had quite a lot of ad lib, more than most people know.

Now I am biased because I choo-choo-chose Seinfeld as the best because (1) It's in my generation (although it wasn't what I grew up on, it's the series I remember the most and still watch twice a day every day) (2) It IMO, is one of the funniest shows of all time (3) The impact it had (not of the entertainment buisness) but on the people who watched it.

So my point is pretty irrelevent in this as this is a list of greatest shows of all time not what I think is the greatest show.

Eh, don't listen to me I'm an idiot.

Red Dog

The top-10 most influential in no particular order IMHO:

The Honeymooners
All in the Family
Hill Street Blues
Star Trek
Mary Tyler Moore
Dallas
The Simpsons
Seinfeld
I Love Lucy
The Tonight Show with Johnny Carson

das Monkey

We're two of a kind.

So we're clear, my "dubious" comment was directed at TV Guide, not you.

das

palebluedot

Yes I was clear...and I think we both watch way too much TV

das Monkey

Pretty good list. I want to find a place for St. Elsewhere on that list, but I don't know who to bump.

I'd also suggest Babylon 5 for redefining the Science Fiction genre. They paved the way for the Buffys and the Farscapes and even latter stages of Deep Space Nine. Like Seinfeld, it redefined a genre that was bordering on stale. Still, I cannot justify removing one from your list to make room for it.

das

Venusian

definitely. they are two completely separate lists

Venusian

which came first Dynasty or Dallas? was one influenced by the other?

Red Dog

Dallas started in '78. Dynasty began around '81. Dynasty also ended before Dallas did.

Red Dog

St Elsewhere was a critically-acclaimed show. The problem is that with the exception of ER the medical drama never really took off because of St Elsewhere.

What into my thinking on my list is what shows started or redefinied the category that it was in.

The only things that I really missed were the legal drama and the variety show.

For legal dramas, I could not narrow it down to a single show. Perry Mason is a contender but the legal drama did not take off after it. My favorite drama of all time is Law & Order but the format of that show was so unique (at least it used to be) that I don't think it redefined the genre. L.A. Law might be the #1 most influential in the legal drama category but not by enough to put in a top-10 list.

Variety shows were an early staple of television. I almost put Texaco Star Theater on my list. Then there was Laugh-In and then Carol Burnett and then Saturday Night Live. It was hard for me to single one out.

Interestingly enough, I almost put Monday Night Football on my list. That was an institution in the 70s and it was the precursor for sports programming to be more than just the game. Without Cosell and Meredith, there would be no Chris Bermans, Dick Vitales, etc.

das Monkey

I wasn't thinking so narrow as medical drama, but the fast-paced and realistic ensemble drama. Along with Hill Street Blues, it ushered in a new era of large casts of very unique and dynamic characters, all of whom were very human in their strengths and faults. Cop, legal, and medical dramas were all influenced greatly by both shows. I hesitate to give all credit to Hill Street simply because it came first.

das

mrpayroll

For me Hill Street Blues was the beginning of Must See T.V. Thursday on NBC, which continues for me till this day. I remember the 1st episode where 2 of the cops were gunned down and you didn't know if they survived or not. I watched it thru all of the 7 seasons and felt that they ended the show at the right time. They didn't drag it on needlessly.

To me the most shocking moment in T.V. to this day is when Lieutenant Howard Hunter, after going thru a lot of crap in his life (mostly brought on by himself), supposedly shoots himself in the head. I remember walking around in disbelieve for the next week until they made it clear exactly what happened. Chris

Arcade

I agree with a post from above. I was surprised to see a show like Buffy on the list. The whole concept of the show is crazy but the writing is top notch and very entertaining.

latenight

Damn fine show, The two cops killed in the 1st ep, didn't the movie Fort Apache the Bronks start that way.

tanman

by influential do they mean money wise, as in who paid them the most, as in under the table dealings, as in a bribe....ok i'll shut up now.

grunter

There wouldn't be a "Star Trek:The Next Generation" without the original "Star Trek".

I thoroughly object to there being no original "Star Trek" listed in the top 50 titles.

It was - after all - the first television series to be rescued from cancellation by the devotion and fervor of its fans.

Number_One

As I was reading this thread, I was thinking "Where are all the anti-TNG people?" Finally, we have one.

While the original was the inspiration of TNG, TNG is direcly responsible for raising the popularity of Star Trek to new heights and 3 successful (admittedly lesser) spin-offs.

Was the original really rescued? Was it scheduled for cancelation before it got the axe after season 3? I dunno.

And St. Elsewhere ahead of ER? No way.

das Monkey

I don't have a problem with TNG being on the list while TOS isn't, simply because TNG provided a consistent base of programming for a longer period of time, but the original Star Trek not only changed the face of science fiction on television, but boldly fought against numerous prejudices to tell compelling stories about the kind of world we could one day live in. It did all of this during the late 1960's, an incredibly difficult period in American history, and inspired countless people in a way television had never done before.

And, yes, it was cancelled, not "scheduled for cancellation" - it was gone and brought back to live after the most impressive fan campaign in television history (unmatched to this day), not because it was good television, but because it was important television. It was not just the inspiration for TNG. It was a vision of a better world and the foundation for a legacy that has endured like few others in any medium, not just television. Most importantly, it changed people's lives. And I'm not talking about the Trekkies. I'm talking about the countless doctors and engineers and astronauts who cite Star Trek as the show that inspired them to dream. And don't forget the hundreds of thousands of letters that poured into NASA requesting the first space shuttle be named 'Enterprise.' While impressive, NASA wouldn't have cared ... except for the fact that those working on the shuttle had already campaigned for the same, before the first letter arrived. Star Trek changed people's lives for the better - few shows can claim such an impact.

As for e.r. ... while it's often a very compelling show, nearly every strong story was either reworked or inspired by an episode of St. Elsewhere. The difference? When St. Elsewhere addressed such thought-provoking issues, they were new and controversial. Along with Hill Street Blues, it ground-breaking television that paved the way for well-written ensemble drama. Throughout its run, it maintained a consistent level of quality and integrity and educated its audience on numerous social and medical issues. Listing it below e.r. would be an oversight of the highest degree.

das

Venusian

watched the tv special. anyone think they polled alot of younger people for their polls?

come on....monica and chandler the best tv couple of all time?

Andalusia

Whoa whoa whoa, where the friggin' hell is "Twilight Zone"?! TV Guide couldn't be bothered to put it in their TOP 50? That can't be right...