Yeah, show some class, people.

das

The episode was good, people. Just because the season in general has been poor doesn't mean every single episode is going to suck. Try opening your eyes. BTW, if we start a petition..... what are the chances of Dawn getting killed off?

"Hell, they even had Kevin get nekkid in Andromeda last week! "


Kevin Sorbo was naked??? AND I MISSED IT????

Oh yeah, this is a Buffy thread....so I should talk about Buffy.
I was REALLY hoping that Anya was gonna grab the amulet and become a vengence demon again!! That would have made the wedding a no go. In my opinion I don't think they are gonna go through with the Anya/Xander wedding, and I was hoping this was how they were gonna avoid it.

If I hear Dawn's b*tchy "primal scream" one more time... ugh.

Yeah, pretty much agree, took a concept that lead nowhere for all the characters- except Dawns feelings, which are pretty ridiculus in the first place and at the very least dont warrant nearly getting everyone killed.

I guess the one gripe I dont think anyones mentioned was the whole, "You made a wish to someone you dont know!?!?!!!" What the Hell? You cant say "I wish" in the Buffyverse without worrying that some demon is in eashot and will curse you for a casual remark? Thats lame, they worked around it and made the Vengeance demon wish thing more plausible in the Cordy episode introducing Anya. The way the writers used it in this episode takes a crap on the shows mythology.

Funny, from reading here and hearing from my friends (who frequent the big Buffy boards) fans are in agreement that the show is going downhill fast, yet its ratings are still steady. Everybody is upset, but we still love it enough to give it a chance, because the moment those ratings take a big dip- we know it'll get yanked.

All through this episode, I kept saying to Buffy:

"Why, oh, why did you sacrifice your life to save this whiny, selfish idiot?"

A better ending to season 5 would have been for DAWN to realize that she wasn't real anyway and that Buffy's life was more important in the scheme of things. DAWN should have jumped. It would have redeemed the character, and ended that whole Season 5 "sister" thing.

Every time Dawn whines about Buffy someone ought to remind her that Buffy gave her life to save her, and is now miserable, all because of her.

What an ungrateful little turd.

After some of the awful episodes from a few weeks ago, this story was an improvement. This was a development story, and we had some changes.

At least Willow is recovering. Has anyone noticed that Buffy is going down the dark path. Buffy is forced to grow up, and basically had to give up college in order to work a full-time job to make ends meet, plus be the slayer without the guidence of Giles.

I think, though, that the absence of Giles is very noticable.

KILL DAWN! KILL DAWN! KILL DAWN! FIRE STEPH! (oops! Wrestling thread flashback Those who follow WWF would realize that while Steph was/is a great though annoyinh heel, her writing put the WWF at an all time ratings low.) They need to find a way to work Dawn out of the big picture, slowly and painfully!

IMO, they should have some big story arc come to a close with Dawn being caught in a huge explosion, and then on a certain date at the official website, fans vote on whether or not she will return. It would kind of be like the Death in the Family gimmick DC used when they killed of Robin...not that I am insinuating the same fate would await Dawn if the viewers decide!

NOW you guys agree with me about the new hair. Took you long enough.

I didn't hate this episode nearly as much as most of you, but I didn't like it much either. Some of the jokes were funny - but they were pretty much all mentioned already. And I did catch the Halfrek/Cicely/Spike situation and found it intriguing - hope they expand on it in the future.

I too hate to see the copout with Willow and her problem, which is NOT magic by any means but rather the way that she doesn't intuitively know that something is good to do or bad to do (like Tara does) - Willow's first thought is "can I do it? is it possible?" not "this is wrong" or "this is right" (case in point, the ep where dawn wants to bring her mom back from the dead). Willow likes to control things, including people, and magic helped with that. It's not the tool (magic) that's the problem - it's the way Willow thinks. Letting people possibly die because you can't face up to your own issues and use the powerful magic you have in a GOOD way is just selfish and ridiculous.

I agree that Dawn has gone WAY WAY WAY past the normal teen angst and normal teenage girl melodrama (ever been one or been around one? some of that behavior is sadly normal ) that I expected into the realm of absolute self-centered spoiled brat who needs some SERIOUS boundaries. She needs serious curtailing of all of her activities, and a very tough love parent figure. JMHO. But it's sad from an audience perspective to have to see all of this, because Buffy the Vampire Slayer shouldn't be about "how to deal with an out of control teenage girl" - and I certainly have no desire to watch Buffy parent Dawn. No win situation. Ugh.

Tara has had a backbone many times before - it just takes certain triggers, and threatening Willow is the biggest trigger of them all. Her standing up for Willow was true to character and nice to see - hope it will mean a reconciliation. I think it's unfair to compare the first few Tara episodes when she was firmly in her protective stuttering shell to this Tara - we saw a LOT of growth over the episodes, slowly. This was totally in character. Also, Tara has truly been Buffy's friend since that ep where Buffy stood up for her against her family. It's just that Buffy never sought her out before and Willow used to be a given wherever Tara was...so it just wasn't obvious that Buffy and Tara were friends. Tara wouldn't have risked her life so many times if she didn't truly care about the whole gang, so when Buffy came to her for help, she was there. Tara is a very kind and giving person, and she would put personal feelings aside to be there for Buffy, who is so obviously in pain. Plus Tara probably feels pretty guilty for helping bring Buffy back from heaven, so she wants to help even more.

I think there's more to the girl from Buffy's work than meets the eye...notice the lack of freak out when all of the mayhem ensued? Maybe she's Jonathan in disguise? Just a theory.

I couldn't be more sick of the Xander/Anya wedding - and normally I love weddings. I just don't like either of them very much. Xander has grown up a lot, but he still annoys me sometimes - he jumps to (usually the wrong) conclusion way too often.

OK, end of rant.

Liked this ep a lot. Except for Dawn's parts. Seemed pretty much a repeat of "Blood Ties". Especially the "screaming in my room" part. Ugh. Like Buffy's hair. Don't think Halfrek is Cecily. You guys complain too much. :P

Still love the show. Hasn't been an ep I didn't like all season.

X

After viewing the first season on DVD and other episodes from seasons three and four, I really see how far the show's quality has gone in a negative direction.

IMO, Buffy used to be a gorgeous young woman with a strong group of followers and was larger than life. Now look at her life. She's given her life for a whiny brat of a sister, lost her beautiful hair, has begun to look too skinny (not Callista Flockhart yet, but on the way),been resurrected from what was as far as we know a good afterlife, then forced to quit college and work at a burger joint to make ends meet. I mean come on! She was an awesome warrior princess like being earlier, let her keep some of her dignity. It wouldn't surprise me if they decide to Vamp her again and make her wind up commiting suicide after she loses all of her friends. Then they might choose to clone her!

While kind of an off subject, I see lots of paralells between Buffy and Ellen Ripley, the heroine of the Alien saga. Her life is one that really eliminated her dignity.

Right, but mostly this season (Tough Love, last season, being the first time I can recall her having one); it kinda started with with Bargaining, where she whacked the demon with a shovel to save Willow. Made sense, but her post-whack reaction was far more confident than any Tara we've seen before.

I think my problem is that S4-S5 Tara's evolution was very gradual; she was overcoming her biggest personal problem (insecurity). It apparently vaporized over the summer, leaving her with only her unhealthy Willow-dependence. In the musical, Tara's crediting Willow with all that's good in herself. By the end of two episodes later, Tara's dumped Willow /and/ discovered her own worth (The whole mind-wipe thing gave ample reason for the dumping, but where did her sudden self-pride stem from?)

So, while I agree that Tara probably would stand up for Willow, it seemed totally out of character for her to not be a little nervous/embarassed afterwards.

And, yes, I do think Tara-as-Buffy's-confidante makes sense. It just seems like they're trying to revamp her character to move her into the best friend position, as opposed to keeper of Buffy's dirty little secret.

As for reconciliation--I hope not. I have a hard time dealing with the idea that what Willow intentionally did, and tried to do, to Tara is entirely forgivable. That's not just undermining the trust in a relationship; that's blowing it up, sticking the bits in an envelope, and mailing them to the moon.

I would agree under normal circumstances, but I can see where a teenage girl first finds out she is not really a teenage girl, and then has her mother figure die might want to cling to what is left of her family dynamic.

p

I REALLY wanted Anya, during her freakout, to slap Dawn and tell her everything that is being said here. Buffy died for you, you are ungrateful, you have friends, too, you know...

Unfortunately, none of that. In fact, it didn't even need to be Anya. It could be anyone. I would especially like Spike to say it, though.

But, yeah, would have been much stronger of an episode without the bad guy of the week.

Except she already played that card ... twice. Time to move on. The hardest thing in this world is to live in it. Now quit'cher bitchin' and move on.

das

Like I said last week, I wish Xander would step in and tell her to grow the hell up. She looks up to him. Spike might work too.

das

Anya was too busy panicing and being just too self-centered about her own problems. Although, on the realization that it was Dawn who was at the root of their fix, a bitchslap would not have been out of the question.

Again I exploit my ignorance regarding Buffy.

-Does Anya really care for Xander, or does her lack of demon powers kind of rival Spike with the chip in terms of being a good person?

Anya forcibly lost her powers, and did try to get them back, but she appears pretty reformed (more on this in the next paragraph, it's sticky). Her initial draw to Xander was very much against her will, and seemed to be a sex thing, but then she felt all flustered when he didn't call. After that, she developed real emotion for him (she's seriously risked her life to save him on more than one occasion), and is now so enamored of him that she lets him get away with some pretty shoddy treatment of her.

But as for her goodness as a person... Nobody's sure. She shows no remorse for her past actions, which would make her seem less than good, but... There's a line that says, when her power center was crushed, all the wishes she granted were reversed. So, the centuries of torment she's not feeling guilt over quite likely never happened. The only thing she'd really have to regret, in that case, is turning her boyfriend into a troll, pre-vengeance demon days. Unfortunately, her past is being played up for laughs, so nobody can be entirely sure what she thinks of it.

Or, in shorter version: Anya is currently being written as someone who is good, though rough in understanding some areas of morals, and truly lurves Xander.

Someone posted above that they couldn't believe there was a throw away episode so late in the season?
The whole season has been one big throw away episode, that is, except the Muiscal Episode.
What has happen to the characters and the clever plotting?
This episode was a bit better than some of the others but the whole Dawn thing was all summed up as her being lonely? She was stealing even before her Mom died and Buffy had to work fast food. I dont get it. It just seems like a plot contrivance to me.
Buffy lept to her death, sacrificed herself and this is Dawns way of saying Thank you? What a Friggin Brat. They should have gotten rid of her at the end of last season if this was all they were going to do with her.
The one highlight was Hilfreck. I hope to see her again
And even know the dreadful Nerds weren't in this episode, they are dragging the show down.
Joss is obviously off working on his new Sci Fi show because he sure aint contributing anything to this dreadful season.
Alias is moving up the list as my favorite new show replacing the once almighty Buffy.

Couple comments:

Just because I find Dawn annoying, my parents found me annoying at age 15. They've told me as much. The thing is, a lot of us have forgotten what it's like to be 15. However, they could do a lot of good by showing a good, mature side every so often. If it goes beyond another year, though, that will be too much. After all, Dawn will be the same age Buffy was in the first season next year.

Personally, the musical is probably my favorite episode of Buffy, of any season.

I agree that this episode and, unfortunately, several episodes this season have been throw-aways, but I love the Troika. I think they're the best thing to happen to this season (besides the musical). And it's pretty obvious things won't be just wacky fun with them anymore after the murder.

Thanks for the info!

In terms of Dawn being 15, well, I was that age too but I never whined as much as her. Furthermore, I try to forget that age as nothing really significant happened other than I entered high school. I still hope something happens to make her the big bad and Buffy has to be the one to her in.