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Angel 11/19/01

Old 11-19-01, 09:02 PM
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Angel 11/19/01

Another solid episode tonight.

Spoiler:
That had to be one of the more original birth scenes in TV history.

Poor poor Host, he just can't get a break with his "sanctuary" bar re-opening.

It appears Holtz will still be with us for some time to come. Holtz's story was pretty grueling, having to put down his daughter in the manner he did.

Darla coming to term (bad pun, I know) with what she lost in becoming a vampire as her child was ready to be born.

Now, Angel with child - I'm thinking the boy will be sent away and raised by who-knows-who.
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Old 11-19-01, 09:06 PM
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What a great episode. There shouldve been a more emotional farewell between Angel and Darla. A DAMN KISS WOULDVE BEEN NICE!!!!!!!!
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Old 11-19-01, 09:23 PM
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Spoiler:
It was poetic justice that just has Darla "killed" Angel in an alley way, Darla knew that it'd be an alley way where she'd die in as well. Yeah, the emotional send-off wasn't as high as it could have been, but I was actually surprised at Darla staking herself, perhaps Angel was taken by surprise as well.

I also couldn't believe how well Fred kept it together. Somehow I have to think that this will sort of link Angel to Fred forever as being the "midwife" to the birth of his child.
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Old 11-20-01, 01:12 AM
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I know the Darla storyline has been a drag at times this season and last, but I for one will miss her. And to think she was the first vamp we saw on the Buffy pilot.

The whole scroll thing is kinda confusing now - and they say its not a birth, I guess not in the natural sense.

I take it we're not gonna have a new episode next week as they didn't have a promo at the end of this one...
I wonder, what now?
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Old 11-20-01, 05:11 AM
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MrN, have you ever read Macbeth?

Macbeth is told he can't be harmed by any man born. But is killed by someone who was born out of a C-Section. So technically, not born.

Same thing here. "There will be no birth, only death."

Anyways, great episode. But what else can you expect from Tim? What didn't I like? well, Fred did her stupid geek thing again where she talks forever. I think that's it.

This arc isn't over yet. We still don't know what's happening with the mail room guy and his dark master. I suppose we'll learn next week?

Poor Holtz, poor Angel, poor Darla

Holtz killing his daughter was heart wrenching, as was Darla and Angel's last time together.

I think it was a bold move to kill her. I think the producers realised that her time has come, and also that they just had no way of keeping her alive realistically anymore. I am sure she'll keep showing up in flashbacks though.

Snake, I'm glad you're not writing the show. The whole point was Darla and Angel don't love each other. To have them kiss would have been soooo hollywood, it would have been terrible.

The music was really good for a Non-Beck score. I enjoyed it.

Wow, a great Angel and a great Buffy. I love these shows.
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Old 11-20-01, 07:18 AM
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An exceptionally well done episode. Looks like Holtz may be turning into that which he wishes to kill. It appears as though he's going to perhaps torture Angel and go after the baby?

Biz - good catch. I figured, as I was watching, that the baby was going to die or be still born, but what Darla did shocked me. Interesting delivery to say the least. Won't Lilah and Wofram and Hart be surprised!

Also, I don't think they should have kissed either. They were no longer involved and before the pregnancy Angel told Darla if he ever saw her again, he'd have to kill her. A kiss would have been wrong.

Yes, Darla has outlived her usefulness of the storyline. I like the character and found it interesting when they brought her back. Guess they didn't see this baby coming. Looks like their psychics dropped the ball - bigtime! I wonder where Drusilla is?

I checked the TV Guide and there's no ep on next week. Looks like we're through the November sweeps and will probably get reruns now through the holidays.
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Old 11-20-01, 08:35 AM
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I can't believe what they Did to Darla. It was an interesting way to give birth but I'm just going to miss her character.
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Old 11-20-01, 09:07 AM
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Originally posted by BizRodian
MrN, have you ever read Macbeth?

Macbeth is told he can't be harmed by any man born. But is killed by someone who was born out of a C-Section. So technically, not born.

Same thing here. "There will be no birth, only death."


You mean they ripped off 'oscar-nominee' William Shakespeare again?

I somehow seem to have missed out on Macbeth - didn't hit it in school and don't recall any movie version recently. Hamlet, on the other hand...
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Old 11-20-01, 09:17 AM
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I was very happy with this episode. As you could probably tell by my posts, I grew very tired of the whole baby angle. It just struck me as too melodramatic and silly. But they ultimately played it out well. Most of the episode, I think I was rooting for the baby to die. In fact, I still don't like the idea that Angel now has a kid. But I'm at least satisfied with the way they finished this portion of the arc. And I liked the way Darla had to cope with having a soul inside her and knowing she'd lose it when the baby was born. Very well done. I hope the show's back on track now (from my perspective, it was starting to stray a bit).

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Old 11-20-01, 11:34 AM
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I forgot to say this earlier, but man poor Lorne. He just gets Caritos back up and running, the security in place and BOOM! I do hope they rebuild as I really like that character and the place.

And as for getting back on track, makes me wonder if somehow Holtz is going to kidnap the baby and raise him to hate his father somehow.
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Old 11-20-01, 11:52 AM
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The problem I have with introducing a kid on a show like Angel is that it might go the way of jumping the shark, like when other shows introduce babies into the mix (like "Mad About You") or finally get the lead characters together (like "Moonlighting").

I think the kid will be sent away, or be done with in same form or fashion. Fans of Angel don't tune in to watch "Angel, the new Daddy".
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Old 11-20-01, 11:54 AM
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Also, I doubt we're gonna wait for 10-15 years for the kid to grow up and actually contribute to the story. I think a trip to an alternate-dimension-where-time-moves-faster is in order.
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Old 11-20-01, 01:18 PM
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Originally posted by MrN
Also, I doubt we're gonna wait for 10-15 years for the kid to grow up and actually contribute to the story. I think a trip to an alternate-dimension-where-time-moves-faster is in order.
Ah...the classic soap opera time-machine vortex where you send your kid away for the summer and they come back 10-15 years older...
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Old 11-20-01, 02:07 PM
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Originally posted by elektra

And as for getting back on track, makes me wonder if somehow Holtz is going to kidnap the baby and raise him to hate his father somehow.
good thinking. that would be the ultimate revenge, wouldn't it?

you know what i learned from this episode? how to deliver a baby from a pregnant vampire. yup, you learn something new everyday.

great episode. but now, are they gonna start a completely new direction? do you think that they will still headquarter themselves at the hotel or move someplace else?
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Old 11-20-01, 02:33 PM
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Well, even though I have my grumbles about where this season is going, I will say that at least the episodes are getting smoother in their overall execution, unlike the clunky writing and directing that has plagued some of the previous ones.

I have to honestly say, the Darla dying thing was obvious from a mile away because I did see the Macbeth parallels. And it was a good move, however... All of the sudden throwing a hint of a soul in her, what after all her abortion trying, Cordy biting, wanting to eat children in the Cuck E Cheeze, actions was a bit jarring and too sudden. Would have liked a little more of hint, rather than drop the soul bomb and then kill her 15 mins later.

Like I said last week, Holtz is a lightweight. Now, the bit having to kill his own child was probably one of the darkest, most heart wrenching things Iíve seen on Angel, but I still donít like the guy all that much. Maybe when they get less vague with his scheming, I will like him a little more, but so far, I still donít get intimidated by him. Iím all yawns as he slo-mo walks through the flames. He just looks like a pretentious guy youíd see at a wine store to me, not a fear inducing baddie.

Angel and a baby? The producers-writers have to know the old cliche of babies being brought in to revive a dead show, so I hope to Buddha that is something they are playing with and conscious of, instead of accidentally perpetuating.
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Old 11-20-01, 02:39 PM
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I'd like to see them stay at the hotel, but man, they really need security in there. Spells for the monster badies and regular security for the human badies.
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Old 11-20-01, 03:11 PM
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Originally posted by Slumbering Fist


Like I said last week, Holtz is a lightweight. Now, the bit having to kill his own child was probably one of the darkest, most heart wrenching things Iíve seen on Angel, but I still donít like the guy all that much. Maybe when they get less vague with his scheming, I will like him a little more, but so far, I still donít get intimidated by him. Iím all yawns as he slo-mo walks through the flames. He just looks like a pretentious guy youíd see at a wine store to me, not a fear inducing baddie.

I have to disagree with you on this...Holtz is not the fear inducing baddie...BECAUSE he's not BAD. He is a Good Person with Good Values that got caught up with a revenge trip. Holtz is the Good Guy where Angel was the Bad Guy for Many Years. This is a man who had to endure another Monster KILL HIS WIFE...BABY...AND CHILD. I would stop at NOTHING if this were done to me. He said he would show NO MERCY...He did not say to who. I'm going to wait and see how this turns out, but I could see him filling another shoe for the side of Good. Also, he's only weak at the moment because he's still using the old ways....He killed the ENTIRE group of Mercenaries...so he has power whether you think he has it or not.

Bruce
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Old 11-20-01, 03:17 PM
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Um, I really don't think he killed all those mercs alone. He has his caveman monster squad. I do agree with your assessment of the character though.
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Old 11-20-01, 03:27 PM
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I personally hope that the baby is either killed, sent away forever, or kept in the background forever. Maybe it will turn out to belong to Holtz? I don't know. I'm just dredding Angel the father. I'm dredding the lame diaper jokes.
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Old 11-20-01, 03:40 PM
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Originally posted by DVD007


I have to disagree with you on this...Holtz is not the fear inducing baddie...BECAUSE he's not BAD. He is a Good Person with Good Values that got caught up with a revenge trip.

Bruce
I think you were taking my use of the word "baddie" a tad to literally. Really, what I was getting at, is he is not intimidating as an obstacle for Angel to me. I guess I should have said, as a "badass", he doesnít do it for me. I totally agree the humanity of the character, his motivations, is great, but I don't get the sense of dread, danger, or fear they want to convey with him when he goes after Angel. Its an aesthetic thing really, the actor just doesnít have the teeth, the power to give a cold, dangerous stare he needs.
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Old 11-20-01, 09:25 PM
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This was a SPECTACULAR episode. Although I didn't figure on Darla killing herself. Here's the way I see it:

Holtz swore to show no mercy. For Angel, every moment is a living hell (Except the one moment 4 years ago, but that's not the point). To kill him would be MORE merciful than to let him live. Holtz needs to be more creative than that at this point, and he knows it.

What's fitting? Angel killed Holtz's child. Angel has a child. Hmm... Hell, I was expecting Holtz to kill the baby right then and there, have Angel fall to his knees in the rain weeping and have Holtz walk away, leaving Angel to eternal torture now doubled because his child is dead.

I was getting sick of the whole "mistranslation" bit, as they've done it before, and it seemed like a cheap way to throw in a twist ending. At least in Buffy, Giles kept part of the prophecy to himself, it wasn't some stupid mistake. I don't see how they can keep using that vehicle to throw us off. It's annoying.

Oh, well, I wish I wasn't the only person at my college who watches Angel. I had to call up my friend halfway across the country to go on about how great it was and he hadn't even watched it. Bastard.
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Old 11-20-01, 09:37 PM
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God damn!!!!

Of all the episodes to miss!!!!
I would have seen it too, if the Best Buy Sales drones were any faster, that say, snails.....went to buy my new TV and didn't get back till 9:30! Hopefully they'll re-run it before they get into the new stuff.
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Old 11-20-01, 09:50 PM
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I think this episode deserves an Emmy nomination, if anything, for that birth scene alone.

Interesting that the majority of posters here seem to think negatively of Angel having a son. Personally, I think it fits in with his natural evolution... perhaps part of his redemptive process. I don't see this arc as melodramatic at all: there's still the matter of the prophecies, and what role the child might play. Admittedly, the kid would need to seriously age to be an agent in these prophecies, so I don't know how, if at all, this would be resolved in the near future (hey, there's always magic ) ; but I'm intrigued.


Here's something a little lighter to consider... Suppose Angel does become human eventually, and gets back with Buffy.... How would she feel about having to raise Darla's kid?

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Old 11-21-01, 10:10 PM
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That was one of the best, is not THE best, episode of Angel I've ever seen. Not knowing Macbeth, that ending came way out of left field - that was a very heartwrenching moment. Very well payed out. I'm still thinking of what Holtz is planning to do next.

One of the reasons why I love the Buffyverse is how character growth is exceedingly apparent, and progresses at a realistic pace. Many shows run for years and year, but their characters change little, if at all. Not Buffy or Angel. Expecially Angel. Can anyone truly say that the growth of Angel, Cordelia, or (especially) Wesley could have been expected a couple of seasons ago? And Darla - I could never have pictured that this one-dimensional schoolgirl-looking vampire could have such a tortured and emotional story behind her; and I could never have pictured her story ending like that. (I assume this is the end - resurrecting her again would just be cheap.)

If there is an episode where Angel has to deal with the "rigors of parenthood", however, there better be something special about it - I picture a very high chance of it being subpar. But I have faith in them -
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Old 11-21-01, 10:55 PM
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Originally posted by RolloTomasi
That was one of the best, is not THE best, episode of Angel I've ever seen. Not knowing Macbeth, that ending came way out of left field - that was a very heartwrenching moment. Very well payed out. I'm still thinking of what Holtz is planning to do next.
I think my favorite is still 'I Will Remember You'. As you'll see in my animosity towards any other romance Buffy has, the Buffy and Angel relationship is incredibly compelling to me. That episode just rips me apart.

I also liked all the stuff with Faith, especially 'Sanctuary'.

This last episode may fall in my top 10, but not above those others.

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