buffy 10/16
 

So, Angel crossover, anyone?

Today's pretty neat, seeing a superhero dealing with real life.

And Willow's "DON'T PISS ME OFF" thing!!! The evil's coming out!

I doubt they'll do an Angel crossover. I wish they would though. I believe the studio said that crossovers would be impossible now that Buffy and Angel are on separate networks. The most they could do is mention each other's name, like at the end of this episode and leave it at that.

And yes... Evil Willow!!!!! :)

This post contains SPOILERS for the first four episodes of Buffy Season 6 (up through tonight), so if you don't wanna be spoiled, probably best to just skip it.

First of all: Wow. Just--wow. I can't pin down why I liked this episode so much, but it's the first time in a while (Since, I think, The Body) that a new Buffy episode kept my full attention for the entire span.

Last week's preview had me worried, but I was really impressed with the continuity between Buffy of last week and Buffy of this.

Best moments:

got me all choked up--he was just so darned happy.

The Kitchen Scene. Willow was very much creepy there.

Any scene with

Minor nitpick:

When are they going to realize Dawn isn't that young? She's 15. Willow, Xander, and Buffy were 15-16 at the start of season 1. You'd think someone would mention it, at some point. Like, say, Dawn?

Also (SPOILERS for a FUTURE episode--but, if you saw the commercials during the episde, you've already seen it):


All in all, a really enjoyable episode--and it looks like some of the major subplots of for the season are getting going.

I think the 'major villain' of the season is still to come. I guess I don't really want to see Dark Willow.

That was a great scene between Willow and Giles though. And I guess the musical episode is a spoiler no more - they're advertising it a full 3 weeks ahead.

It was pretty funny seeing Jonathan (unexpectedly) because I saw him in today's FX episode getting Cordelia her coffee (was that his first appearance?)

I thought this episode was gonna be all out comedy but it wasn't and then from the preview of next week's episode it looks like its going to be all out comedy.

Best episode of the season so far - kudos to all involved.

IIRC, Jonathan's first appearance was earlier in season 2--In Inca Mummy Girl. He's the guy that *almost* gets kissed by MummyWoman at the dance.

I'm just glad to have the guy back--Season 5 had an isolated feel, highlighted by the lack of the usual recurring characters (Amy, Jonathan, Ethan). Sorta nice to see that the rest of Sunnydale still exists.

I love how Buffy only seems comfortable nowadays when she is talking to Spike. I wonder if anyone ever saw that coming back in the early days of the Spike and Drusilla story arc. Another testament to how well Whedon and his crew are constantly "evolving" the characters.

And yes, Evil Willow rocks! I'm looking forward to seeing where this development is going to go.

Well, refering to my post after the premiere, they're doing everything I wanted them to do, and it's wonderful. The scene between Willow and Giles was great. "You rank amateur!" "Maybe it's not such a good idea to piss me off!" Great stuff.

As for a "crossover" ... I can't imagine that happening. I figured the whole "meeting in a special place" thing was our inside cue that she can't go to LA to visit 'Angel' because LA is on the WB. :) We can still hope.

I agree ... this could be the best episode so far. <I>(Edit: I meant this season)</I>

das

I don’t understand the appeal of the Evil Willow. I suspect you guys secretly want to be dominated…;)

I thought it was cool that they didn’t go “cute” on us and add some FX (slightly demonic voice? maybe a slight change in the eyes?). It was almost like flicking a switch for a moment. -click- evil Willow -click- good Willow. Great job by Allison.

As far as a crossover – why not? The fact that both shows have mentioned the other is a hint. And Buffy’s off to meet Angel? I can very easily imagine that happening, but I’m not holding my breath.

In my area, Buffy is on channel 13, Angel on 5. So, they could meet on channel 9. :lol: My prediction: Buffy will meet Angel. I don’t see much room for Angel in a Buffy episode

‘Nuther prediction: look for a good vs evil smackdown/bitch slap between Willow and Giles. (Well duh!)

[Wizdar fantasizes about the Leather-clad Evil Willow from a past episode. "Yes, Mistress Willow!"]

The appeal for me is from a story perspective. I've never found Willow to be very "hot", even as a vampire. Nothing against her ... she's wonderful ... but I don't lie awake thinking about her. I just think the natural progression of her character is to turn bad for a while. Living in Buffy's shadow. Messing with way too much magic. Being very powerful. From Lucifer to Luthor, it's a classic tale, and I've always thought the show would go in this direction. I guess I'm now looking forward to it so much because it's validation of my thoughts for the show.

das

I sorta watched last night...wasn't totally paying attention, though, so I probably can't offer any insightful comments (not that I ever do, anyway :)).

Giles coming back was cool....is he gonna be here the rest of the season or only an episode here and there? I thought he moved back to England (in real life) to be with his family....

Those 3 loser guys....maybe I wasn't paying attention enough or something, but I thought that they were just plain stupid. I enjoy the show for its witty one-liners and its subtle humor....maybe that's why I thought those guys were dumb and ridiculous.

Evil Willow...seems like the story has some potential. I'll look forward to it.

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I thought it was an OK episode, in otherwords average. Maybe I'm crazy, but it seems that Willow and Tara could get themselves a job to start help paying bills around the place, since they live there and all though. I kept waiting for Buffy to say that. Oh well.

I liked the 3 guys, that was great. Especially when they were calling themselves super villains. I was all set for a more comic episode, but hey, you can't win 'em all. And Buffy the Construction Worker looks pretty promising in that regards. I can't wait for the musical!

I think that is a nice change too. Have you noticed that Spike seem to completely take over the role of Angel? When Angel used to be part of the show he used to be the one having those private meetings with Buffy to provide her with support and comfort whenever she runs across a dead end. Now it's Spike's turn. I wonder if they're going to give him a soul. :confused:

Ehhhh, it was alright. I mean I liked it, but, mainly just fir the plot furthering moments, like Giles return, Buffy and Spike, and DarkWillow. The comedy was really bad though- I mean, after the 'throw the gun away and it goes off' bit I though they would break into a pie fight, and I really didnt like the supervillian crew, that entire thing felt flat. It just felt like all the humor was forced, too concious, probably to make up for the dark elements so far.

Last weeks episode was still the best of the season.

I think Dawn has always been sheltered, protected, and therefore a bit of a late bloomer, and thats why the crew treats her like they do. Didnt they establish when they introduced her, that Buffy's whole Slayer life was something they kept from Dawn? That would mean the matter wold still be a bit new for her.

Did anyone else notice how Xanders face was all puffy in the scene where he runs after Anya and talks with her outside? He must've had some dental work done, because in the rest of the show, he looked fine.

Well, I didn't like the 3 stuches either. Willow and Tara working? Good point! Never thought about that. And exactly where do they get the money from? A money spell?! 8-)

Missed next week preview but a musical? We'll see.

As for Spike, I liked him better as a sarcastic bad guy. Now he's all emotional and teary eyes. Just not cool. Bring back Angel or even the wimpy Rily, I say.

So how ARE they going to solve that money problem. Maybe Buff will slay a rich demon and get all his golds, matey! 8-)

Buffy should become a streetwalker...that'll solve all her financial problems...;)

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And you said you never offer anything insightful. :) ;)

...gives a whole new meaning to "wham, bam, thank you ma'am." :D

and for once she'll be the one getting staked.

:D Wow, people actually responded to one of my posts in here! Woohoo! I guess I'll have to make hooker jokes more often....

Xander should sell his body...that man-whore .

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Overall I thought the episode was mediocre. The Three-Not-So-Wise Men pretty much did it in for me.

However, there were bright points, which are the character-development happenings mentioned above. Actions (should) have consequences, and that was handled very well. If there should have been a crossover, IMHO it should have been Buffy going to L.A. to talk to Angel and "regroup"... perhaps aiding in the defeat of some serious evil, and find some kind of renewed purpose in slaying.... but bureaucracy precludes anything like that. :( Oh well.

Here's something I've been thinking about... Now that Buffy knows that she'll go to Heaven eventually, isn't that sort of an enticement to not feel so bad about losing? Perhaps not try so hard to slay? I wouldn't suggest that she harbor thoughts of suicide, but being pulled back from, and subsequently missing being in, Heaven, has to have some kind of implications and resolution, right? At some point she will have to seriously deal with what she's lost, and become more grounded (no pun intended) in her current mortal existence... I'm thinking along the lines of outright apathy to the point of wanting to die, leading to a true spiritual rebirth. I sincerely hope Whedon doesn't just let this go, and allow Buffy to slowly become the good ol' Slayer again without addressing this in some way.

I suppose that I'm growing somewhat impatient... bring on this season's major villain, already! :)

Hehehe... to modify a Friends reference.. She could become "Buffy. The Vampire Layer"

When did this happen? -eek-

OK. There's some ambiguity about just where she was. Spike (and others) mention a Hell "dimension". Buffy says she doesn’t know where she was. But if you’re going to throw Heaven [dimension?] in to the equation, that’s gonna make things complicated. ;)

I think it's just referring to Buffy saying she didn't know anything about theology, but that she was safe and warm and finished...and then she said she was in Heaven.

They use "hell" to describe any crappy dimension. It makes sense to use "heaven" to describe any good and peaceful dimension. It is the opposite of "hell".

She said the best way to describe it was "Heaven". All that can be gathered from that statement is like you said: she was safe and warm and finished. It was a place on contentment that she has been forcibly removed from. Any theological assumptions past that are pointless. Whether she was in a "Heaven" dimension or the Christian Heaven or Sto'vo'kor is not relevant. Just as the term "Hell" is loosely used to describe a negative place outside the current realm, so should we interpret "Heaven" to be the opposite. Did she accept Christ and was sent there by a God? Was she in a warrior's afterlife for dying in battle. Did the Powers That Be recognize her life's work? Was Al the Bartender giving her a break before more difficult missions? I don't think any of these questions are relevant. What's important is that she was finally at peace, and she's been torn from that state. How she got there, what it was exactly, and whether she'll return seem immaterial.

das

AHHHH!!!!! Blasphemy! Take it back! :)

I INFINITELY prefer a neutered Spike to "Captain Cardboard". I really hope Riley's gone for good.

X

It only "makes sense" to consider "Heaven" as the opposite because that's the way we have been taught. [Actually, it could be argued that "Hell" is the opposite of "Heaven", not the other way around. But then we’d have to consider the chicken/egg issue. ;)]

While reference to Hell is used in various ways throughout the series, they have avoided using references to Heaven, which is why I took issue with the word. Perhaps to avoid angering Christians? :lol: While The Powers That Be is more of an Angel concept, it could still apply as the counterpoint to Hell.

I will agree, with reservations, with das about it being irrelevant. The fact remains that Buffy was at peace and was yanked from it. You could pose the question about whether or not she was “properly” dead, I suppose. But I don’t think it will be explored.

A less obvious issue: will Buffy be feeling bitter about being yanked away from -- wherever she was? I know I would.



BTW, you just KNOW that Buff and Spike are going to have to do the nasty at some point in time. :D

Ok. Fine. Perhaps my use of "Heaven" is too specific, and carries too much theological heft.. How about "peaceful-place-after-she-died"? :) Whatever. It could well be that I'm not fully acquainted with the Buffyverse (I've only been watching since the summer during reruns of Season 3), but I don't immediately see a need for distinction between "Heaven" and "peaceful-place-after-she-died". If there is, hey, I'd love to hear it. :)



This is where I disagree. If you're in a "peaceful-place", and then you're suddenly yanked to a "not-nearly-as-peaceful-place", how do you not deal with how it sucks? Wouldn't you want to go back? I think this is worth exploring.

You missed my point. :) I was saying that her removal from peace was what's important, not the particulars of the peaceful place itself. What we should take away from her discussion with Spike is that she was somewhere that made her feel content at peace and had closure to her life. Now she's been forcibly ripped from that place. And that is very much worth exploring. I was simply saying that the place she was in does not necessarily have to be Christian Heaven or any other "heaven" that we can attribute specific qualities to (like "good people go to heaven"). I hear people talking about "sin" and stuff, and whether she belonged in Heaven, and whether she'll go to Heaven again, and I think all of that is irrelevant. The particulars of where she was, what we name that place, and whether she'll return there when she dies again don't seem very important to me. What's important is that it was a peacful place, she's been removed from that place, and like you said, the show will be dealing precisely with how it sucks (I hope).

Does that clarify my comments? I am in full agreement that her removal is of paramount importance ... I just don't think it matters where she was, just that it was peaceful, and she didn't want to leave.

das

Yah. What das said.

[das, you wonder about being a thread killer. Hell, buddy, when you say all there is to say, what else is there to say. Which is to say...umm...ah, screw it! :D]

Jad, we ain't picking on you. Trust me. You'll know when we are. ;)

Um ... thanks??? :)

das

[Thinking of changing my name to Obtuse. -biggrin-]

Ah, well, it looks like you might have missed my point too, initially.... Or at least didn't clearly state your support. :) It would appear that we agree; it seems that too much emphasis, IMHO, was placed on my use of "Heaven"... It's just a little more succinct than "peaceful-place-after-she-died". ;)

Wizdar, I don't feel picked on at all... I threw an idea out there, and felt compelled to defend it. That's what open forums are all about. :)

Ok, all is cool. :)