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Old 09-06-07 | 10:47 PM
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Also, Since everyone seems to be all mad because he got arrested for refusing a search, he didnt. He was arrested for being a dumbass to the cop!! CC didnt call the police he did. If he had just shown his ID to the officer he wouldnt of been in trouble. He didnt get arrested for refusing the CC search but because he was being stupid towards the officer.
Old 09-06-07 | 10:56 PM
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Which, of course, is not actually a crime.
Old 09-06-07 | 11:00 PM
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I don't know. I'm pretty sure "Don't be a dumbass to a cop" was passed in shortly after the "Have a driver's license while standing on a sidewalk" law.
Old 09-06-07 | 11:21 PM
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Originally Posted by ToddSm66
It's EXACTLY what you're saying. You feel you should be able to pick and choose what rights a person should be "granted" based on their demeanor.
No, I don't. Again, please stop putting words in my mouth. He still has his rights, and still should have his rights. That doesn't mean that he acted without fault, even if he acted within his rights.

Think of it this way: Right now, no one has the right to punch me in the face. Now lets say that I walk around town and call every black person I see the N-word. None of them would have the right to punch me in the face (or block my car, etc), but would you feel bad for me if I did get punched? Would you be concerned for me if I did? Of course not. You'd say that I got what I deserved for being a racist idiot, and you'd be right.

Righi still deserves his rights, and what CC did was wrong, but I don't feel bad for Righi at all. He went in there will all of this planned. He went in there with the idea that he wasn't going to hold up his receipt as he walked out the door. He decided to make life miserable for some schmuck security guard. Every time I've been to CC, I can just hold up my receipt as I walk out the door, and that is more than enough. I don't even have to break stride. Righi knew he could be out of there in five seconds, but he had something else planned. I don't feel bad for him in the slightest. Even if I did feel bad, after seeing him comparing himself to Rosa Parks, any feeling would have been long gone. He's an idiot.
Old 09-06-07 | 11:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Layziebones
Also, Since everyone seems to be all mad because he got arrested for refusing a search, he didnt. He was arrested for being a dumbass to the cop!! CC didnt call the police he did. If he had just shown his ID to the officer he wouldnt of been in trouble. He didnt get arrested for refusing the CC search but because he was being stupid towards the officer.
The officer was there because Righi called the police, and the officer didn't even investigate or try to sort things out. Refusing to show ID to a cop isn't a crime. No one is free from blame, the cop included. Only being an idiot isn't a crime, and Righi didn't deserve to be arrested.
Old 09-06-07 | 11:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Jeremy517
The officer was there because Righi called the police, and the officer didn't even investigate or try to sort things out. Refusing to show ID to a cop isn't a crime. No one is free from blame, the cop included. Only being an idiot isn't a crime, and Righi didn't deserve to be arrested.
The cop was trying to sort things out when he refused to show his ID. I would of arrested him for disturbing the peace or something to that degree. Hes taking up an officers time when im sure there was someone else out there who could of used his help more than this guy. Seriously, just show the guy the bag, damn, and when a cop asks for your ID dont be an idiot and say: I dont have to!" Is he 4?
Old 09-06-07 | 11:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Layziebones
The cop was trying to sort things out when he refused to show his ID. I would of arrested him for disturbing the peace or something to that degree. Hes taking up an officers time when im sure there was someone else out there who could of used his help more than this guy. Seriously, just show the guy the bag, damn, and when a cop asks for your ID dont be an idiot and say: I dont have to!" Is he 4?
Well then it's a good thing you're not a cop! I think I need to add "taking up an officer's time" to the list of new crimes I've learned about today.
Old 09-06-07 | 11:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Layziebones
The cop was trying to sort things out when he refused to show his ID. I would of arrested him for disturbing the peace or something to that degree. Hes taking up an officers time when im sure there was someone else out there who could of used his help more than this guy. Seriously, just show the guy the bag, damn, and when a cop asks for your ID dont be an idiot and say: I dont have to!" Is he 4?
You are totally wrong IMHO. The officer had no right to ask for him for his ID. Thats the point here. Its the officer taking up the guys time and disturbing the peace, not the other way around.

The guy acted like a prick, sure, but everything he did was 100% within the law. Nuff said. The cops and CC have a big lawsuit in front of them and i hope this guy takes them to the cleaners for all they are worth.
Old 09-07-07 | 12:01 AM
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From: The city with no sports championships...Cleveland
I go to that Circuit City!!!! There is no grocery store near it...A Lowe's, a Cici's Pizza and a Texas Roadhouse.........but no grocery store!!!
Old 09-07-07 | 12:11 AM
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Originally Posted by QuePaso
You are totally wrong IMHO. The officer had no right to ask for him for his ID. Thats the point here. Its the officer taking up the guys time and disturbing the peace, not the other way around.

The guy acted like a prick, sure, but everything he did was 100% within the law. Nuff said. The cops and CC have a big lawsuit in front of them and i hope this guy takes them to the cleaners for all they are worth.
On top of that, we are only hearing his story. Im sure in his mind what he did was really cool and he thought he was right. Im sure it was a hell of a lot different than he explained it.

He also just seems like a total prick. Just because you can do something, doesnt mean you should. Seriously, if the guy is not letting you drive off, show him the bag. It takes two seconds and you dont have to waste 300 dollars on bail. This guy thinks he really cool by standing up to the police but I hope he gets embarrased in court. Im sure there was a reason the officer wanted to see an ID and when someone says no that is pretty suspicious. He didnt say, I dont have one (which is understandable) he said no I wont show it to you. He just wanted trouble and he got it. Now hes trying to suck money out of people. What a douche.
Old 09-07-07 | 08:39 AM
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Originally Posted by nemein
For non emergencies you're better off calling the operator and having them patch you through. Remember every minute you spend w/ a 911 operator is a minute taken away from someone w/ a real life threatening emergency.
How do you know it isnt an emergency? How do you know the situation isn't going to turn hostile? What if a knife or gun is drawn?

I know they are CC employees and one could probably assume wouldnt do any of that. But I also would assume they wouldn't heve chased me out into the parking lot and prevent me from driving away either.

Better safe than sorry.
Old 09-07-07 | 08:54 AM
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Originally Posted by wewantflair
There are so many red herrings in this thread that it's disgusting. People speak of Circuit City policy as if it has any legal standing whatsoever. Others argue that standing in front of a person's car is not a form of detention. These claims are so laughable on their fact that I can't believe any reasonable person is making them. I think this has to do with a form of misunderstanding of the goals of U.S. law. U.S. law is prohibitive in nature - that is, laws are written to prohibit certain actions and not grant rights.
I'll still argue standing in front of a person's car is not a form of detention. It is in no way a "red herring" to argue as much (or, in fact, to argue it was). It's perfectly relevant to the issue of whether or not there was false imprisonment.

What's laughable is the amount of "better than thou" attitudes in the thread. Everyone is throwing out opinions; hardly anyone is throwing out fact or support (e.g., the statute in Ohio for false imprisonment). None of us are experts in Ohio law. All we're going on is one kid's account of what happened. Maybe it's true, maybe it's not.

Isn't the point of these discussion forums to DISCUSS? I stand by the shopkeeper's privilege in this instance, until I'm shown (not belittled into believing) otherwise.

Good fun!

Last edited by Toad; 09-07-07 at 09:09 AM.
Old 09-07-07 | 09:02 AM
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From: Surrounded by idiots...
And here's a case for me to rely on that's somewhat similar. It involved a Foot Locker employee asking a customer to inspect her bag after she left the store. Apparently he followed her for over 1,000 feet inside the mall, obviously across the Foot Locker lease line.

Everyone else can argue it's "without a doubt" false imprisonment. Show me an Ohio case that distinguishes or overrules this case, and I'll be happy to look at it.

Brooks v. Lady Foot Locker, 2005 Ohio 2394.

...False Imprisonment

[*P23] Appellants have argued that they were falsely imprisoned because Jones "followed them through the mall and refused to let them leave." Appellants have asserted that the trial court erred in [**10] granting a directed verdict in favor of Appellees on this claim. Appellees have asserted that Appellants presented no evidence of confinement.

[*P24] HN6To establish a claim of false imprisonment, a plaintiff must demonstrate that the defendant intentionally confined the plaintiff within a limited area, for any appreciable time, without lawful privilege or the plaintiff's consent. Witcher v. Fairlawn (1996), 113 Ohio App.3d 214, 217, 680 N.E.2d 713, citing Feliciano v. Kreiger (1977), 50 Ohio St.2d 69, 71, 362 N.E.2d 646. "Confinement consists of a total detention or restraint upon [the plaintiff's] freedom of locomotion, imposed by force or threats." (Quotations and citations omitted.)(Alterations original.) Witcher, 113 Ohio App.3d at 217. "If the plaintiff does not offer any proof of confinement, then the cause of action fails as a matter of law." Id.

[*P25] By all accounts, Appellants walked away from Jones after he informed them of his suspicions. Jones testified that he followed them to try and find mall security. It is undisputed that as Appellants arrived at the Dillard's south store, they ran into someone they knew, stopped walking, and engaged [**11] in conversation and a prayer session.

[*P26] Ed Martin ("Martin"), a Summit Mall security guard who approached Jones and Appellants outside the Dillard's south store, testified that Appellants were not detained when he arrived on the scene.

[*P27] Appellants testified that they felt Jones was not going to let them leave the mall unless he could look in their bags. Brooks felt she was free to leave after Jones looked in her bag and did not discover any stolen merchandise.

[*P28] We find that the record is void of an essential element to sustain a claim of false imprisonment. While this Court recognizes that Appellants testified they didn't "feel" they could leave, we find that their actions and Jones' actions do not establish false imprisonment. By Appellants' own testimony, they walked away from Jones and walked the length of the mall without being physically restrained or confined in any way. Appellants only stopped walking when they encountered an acquaintance. The record shows that even after Jones had physical contact with Anderson, Appellants were still able to walk away without Jones hindering their movement. The trial testimony contains no evidence that Jones [**12] detained or restrained Appellants. Further, Martin testified that once he arrived on the scene he did not witness Jones confine Appellants.

[*P29] Based on the foregoing, we find that Appellants failed to present evidence to establish the essential element of confinement for their false imprisonment claim. Without a confinement, their claim fails as a matter of law and a directed verdict in Appellees' favor was properly granted. ...
EDIT: Maybe someone can find a false imprisonment case involving a car and someone standing in front of it. I searched in Ohio and couldn't find a relevant case.

Last edited by Toad; 09-07-07 at 09:10 AM.
Old 09-07-07 | 09:11 AM
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Originally Posted by Jeremy517
No, I don't. Again, please stop putting words in my mouth. He still has his rights, and still should have his rights. That doesn't mean that he acted without fault, even if he acted within his rights.

Think of it this way: Right now, no one has the right to punch me in the face. Now lets say that I walk around town and call every black person I see the N-word. None of them would have the right to punch me in the face (or block my car, etc), but would you feel bad for me if I did get punched? Would you be concerned for me if I did? Of course not. You'd say that I got what I deserved for being a racist idiot, and you'd be right.

Righi still deserves his rights, and what CC did was wrong, but I don't feel bad for Righi at all. He went in there will all of this planned. He went in there with the idea that he wasn't going to hold up his receipt as he walked out the door. He decided to make life miserable for some schmuck security guard. Every time I've been to CC, I can just hold up my receipt as I walk out the door, and that is more than enough. I don't even have to break stride. Righi knew he could be out of there in five seconds, but he had something else planned. I don't feel bad for him in the slightest.

If not showing a receipt at the door makes any body's life miserable - they have some serious issues. How did this adversely affect Santuro's life? The fact that he wasn't properly trained to do his job isn't Righi's fault. The fact that he completely flipped out and committed a crime isn't Righi's fault.

There is nothing evil, nasty or mean about not showing a receipt. He even said "No thanks". He was even polite about it as he walked out the door. What the fuck more is he supposed to do? Just deal with it and stop? Why? For what purpose?

There is no law that he has to stop. There is no law that he has to be searched. There is no law that he has to show his receipt. There is no law that he even has to talk to the guy on the way out. There is nothing decent about stopping and showing a receipt. It has nothing to do with common sense or being nice. Some people just happen to know the law. People do this exact same thing every day.

Once he pays for his merchandise and gets his receipt, his business with Circuit City is done. There is absolutely no reason for another interaction between the two.

Acting like Righi got what he deserved is just retarded. The guy did absolutely nothing wrong.

Loss Prevention: "You need to do exactly what I tell you to do. Show me your receipt or you can't leave the store."
Righi: "No, I don't have to do that."

Manager: "You have to do exactly what I tell you to do. Show me your receipt or I'm going to call the police."
Righi: "No, I don't have to do that."

Police Officer: "You have to do exactly what I tell you to do. Show me your driver's license or I'm going to arrest you."
Righi: "No, I don't have to do that."


In each case, he was absolutely and 100% correct. He wasn't the asshole or the idiot in this. It was person that interacted with him that felt they had some kind of faux authority over him, and then got their ego bruised when they found out they didn't - and then escalated the problem and continued to make it worse.



People keep saying he planned all this out and knew exactly what he was doing when he first walked into the store. How could anybody plan for an employee to be that fucking stupid? How could anybody expect a manager to use one of his employees as a human road block? How could anybody expect a police officer to show up and arrest him for an imaginary law? These are completely outrageous reactions and outcomes that nobody could ever expect to happen. He wasn't the asshole - the idiots that he dealt with were. He didn't get what he deserved - he'll get that later in court.
Old 09-07-07 | 09:17 AM
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How do you know it isnt an emergency? How do you know the situation isn't going to turn hostile? What if a knife or gun is drawn?
All I'm saying is for non-emergency situations there is a non-emergency number that should be used. Tying up resources that are meant for life threatening situations could have potential negative ramifications on other people out there. Whether or not a given situation is really (or could potentially) turn life threatening is up to the people involved. Maybe the guy did feel threatened, none of us were there so none of us know. Given his attitude toward the officer that responded though I suspect he wasn't too scared of the CC guys, at least hassling the person who is there to save you from physical confrontation is usually not the first response of a grateful person.

Last edited by nemein; 09-07-07 at 09:27 AM.
Old 09-07-07 | 09:20 AM
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If not showing a receipt at the door makes any body's life miserable - they have some serious issues.
I think a good argument to the converse could also be made. It's just a receipt and products that were just purchased. It's not like they are riffling through your purse/wallet and most receipts these days don't even have the full CC#. I still have yet to hear a good argument as to what privacy/liberty is lost in this process, and I'm talking about this process specifically, not the multitude of "what if..." scenarios that have been outlined/used as distractions in this thread.

Last edited by nemein; 09-07-07 at 09:24 AM.
Old 09-07-07 | 09:23 AM
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Originally Posted by Jeremy517
Even if I did feel bad, after seeing him comparing himself to Rosa Parks, any feeling would have been long gone.
Bah. Rosa Parks was just a big attention whore. I'll bet she had it all planned out before she got on that bus and knew exactly what she was doing. It wasn't causing her any harm or inconvenience to sit at the back of the bus. I've been on a bus several times and sat in the back - it's not a big deal at all. Rosa just decided she wanted to act like a douche and make some poor bus driver's life miserable. Common sense says the decent thing to do would be to just get up and walk a couple more steps and take her seat. But she had to make a big deal about it for no reason.

Now don't put words in my mouth or anything - I've said 50 times that the Montgomery Bus company was wrong by threatening her and trying to force her out of the seat. And the cop was certainly wrong for arresting her, because she didn't actually break any laws. But, still you kind of have to figure she deserved it. She got on that bus looking for trouble, and she got it. That's what she gets for being a dumbass to a cop. She's an idiot, and I didn't feel sorry for her at all.
Old 09-07-07 | 09:25 AM
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Rosa Parks was just a big attention whore.
You seriously/honestly think what this guy is doing compares to what Rosa Parks did

Last edited by nemein; 09-07-07 at 09:28 AM.
Old 09-07-07 | 09:36 AM
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I don't think his rights as a human being are worth any less than Rosa Parks. Do you?

I don't see why he needs to be belittled and labeled a douchebag just because showing a receipt is "no big deal". Somehow he got what he deserved because he should have just gone along with the flow and done what he was told. I'm just curious if you guys feel the same about Rosa. Back seat of a bus is "no big deal". People do it all the time.
Old 09-07-07 | 09:43 AM
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I don't think his rights as a human being are worth any less than Rosa Parks. Do you?
I don't think this issue merits being labeled in the same vein as what was going on at the time Rosa Parks did what she did. Do you?
Old 09-07-07 | 09:58 AM
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So is that a no? His rights are worth less? Why?

Both are cases of authority far over stepping it's bounds and violating a person's civil rights. A human's basic liberities were unjustly taken away.

Will the outcome has as much of an impact on the country and society? Of course not. But it's not OK to violate civil rights in some cases more than others. That's a dangerous concept.
Old 09-07-07 | 10:06 AM
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So is that a no? His rights are worth less? Why?
Please point out where I said that. My main argument throughout this entire thread has been this "search" is not a pressing civil rights issue, is not an invasion of privacy and certainly in no way is equal to the oppression faced by minorities and the events that lead up to Rosa Parks. You, and some others, obviously feel differently about it. More power to you on your "cause", personally I'd rather expend my energy on more pressing and real risks to privacy/civil liberty.

Last edited by nemein; 09-07-07 at 10:09 AM.
Old 09-07-07 | 10:17 AM
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Originally Posted by nemein
Please point out where I said that.

I asked if you thought his rights were worth less. You quoted that question and responded that it wasn't the same as Rosa Parks. I could only assume that meant a No - I didn't realize you were just trying to dodge the question completely.

My main argument throughout this entire thread has been this "search" is not a pressing civil rights issue, is not an invasion of privacy and certainly in no way is equal to the oppression faced by minorities and the events that lead up to Rosa Parks. You, and some others, obviously feel differently about it. More power to you on your "cause", personally I'd rather expend my energy on more pressing and real risks to privacy/civil liberty.

And nobody in this thread has ever said that ASKING for a receipt and ASKING to search a bag is an invasion of privacy or a civil rights issue.

When you detain somebody and try to forcefully demand an illegal bag search - THAT is an invasion of privacy. When a police officer arrests you for not providing a driver's license when the law clearly states that you don't have to provide a driver's license - THAT is a civil rights issue.

I don't know how anybody in their right mind could possibly call it anything else.

The fact that some civil rights issues are somehow less important than others to some people is a sad and pathetic statement. Rosa Parks' civil rights and liberties as a human being are in no way, shape or form any more important or valuable than those same rights that Michael Righi has, that I have or that you have.
Old 09-07-07 | 10:20 AM
  #274  
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I asked if you thought his rights were worth less. You quoted that question and responded that it wasn't the same as Rosa Parks. I could only assume that meant a No - I didn't realize you were just trying to dodge the question completely.
People making assumptions has been one of the major problems in this thread
Old 09-07-07 | 10:22 AM
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Yet you still haven't answered the question.


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