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Does a QB Have To Win The Superbowl?

Old 08-07-05, 01:52 PM
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Does a QB Have To Win The Superbowl?

This headline from MSNBC makes me sick:

Marino not among greatest QBs ever
Ex-Dolphin, Hall of Famer never found way to win the big one
Here's a guy who holds most of the top passing records in the NFL, a guy who helped define the modern quarterback position... and Mike "Who Dat?" Celizic says he doesn't belong in the same class as Staubach, Elway and Starr.

Does it take a championship to make a player truly great? Does Marino belong in the Top 5 discussion even without a ring? What about other sports legends like Charles Barkley and Tony Gwynn?
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Old 08-07-05, 01:56 PM
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Im sure trent dilfer is a much greater qb than marino
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Old 08-07-05, 01:57 PM
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So i guess Jeff Hostetler is a better QB than Marino?

edit-or Dilfer,twikoff beat me to it
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Old 08-07-05, 02:02 PM
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Mike Celizic is an idiot.

I don't understand how an editor, in good conscience, could even run a commentary as retarded as that.
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Old 08-07-05, 02:06 PM
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The article looks like an attention grab to me.
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Old 08-07-05, 02:29 PM
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Of all the major sports, football requires teamwork more than any other, especially when you consider that there are few iron man players on both sides of the ball. One man can only do so much.

That said, I don't see why people try to resolve everything into black and white. Greatness is not about statistics alone or championships alone or any one single aspect. It's the total package. Trying to sum up a man's career by whether or not he won a championship is stupid. Even so, a stellar QB with amazing stats and 2 rings trumps a stellar QB with amazing stats and 0 rings. At the end of the day, it's a team sport, and situational performances in big games are more important than cumulative individual stats alone. As with all things, though, it depends on the specific individuals being compared, not idiotic blanket statements.

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Old 08-07-05, 02:40 PM
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Still though. How many of us would judge John Elway differently if he hadn't won those two rings? How does Peyton Manning's regular playoff collapses play into his legacy?

And in other sports... for years, Phil Mickelson was better known for being "the guy who never won a major" than for his real skills. Closer to home (for me), Dean Smith and Roy Williams both wore the mantle of "greatest coaches never to win a championship".

So this goes beyond Marino... although, yeah, this guy on MSNBC is an idiot.

Last edited by NCMojo; 08-07-05 at 02:45 PM.
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Old 08-07-05, 03:56 PM
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No. Marino is the greatest QB of the post-merger era. Period.

I don't treat John Elway any differently because he won a ring.
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Old 08-07-05, 04:05 PM
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As stated, football is way too much of a team sport to rely on championships. One guy can do a lot, but he can't win it all. Some good players are blessed with great situations, like Troy Aikman in Dallas or Tom Brady in New England. And some are stuck in mediocre situations, like Dan Marino in Miami. I don't see how I can fault Marino for dumb luck.

If you want to criticize a guy for a bad performance, so be it. But you can't fault a guy who simply didn't get aligned with the right coach, the right system, the right GM, or the right defense. There's just no logic to it.

Unfortunately, writers and fans focus on the end results and not all the factors involved before the final answer. They want to create stories and heroes based on non-existent evidence. That doesn't make it right, but it still exists.
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Old 08-07-05, 04:18 PM
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Originally Posted by NCMojo
Still though. How many of us would judge John Elway differently if he hadn't won those two rings? How does Peyton Manning's regular playoff collapses play into his legacy?

And in other sports... for years, Phil Mickelson was better known for being "the guy who never won a major" than for his real skills.
huge difference between golf and football.. since golf is an individual effort

marino and manning never really got to play with a decent defense.. hard to fault either one of them for their teams troubles.. you cant really do anymore than either of them have.
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Old 08-07-05, 04:20 PM
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Re: Elway vs Marino (vs Jim Kelly)...

Certainly if a QB has had multiple chances to win a SB (ie, team has made the Super Bowl) and he doesn't win one, then it is fair to view him differently than someone who consistenly delivered during the regular season and won when it counted too.

Marino only got there once but is often called one of the all time greats. Kelly got there at least 4 times, but is rarely mentioned as an all timer...
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Old 08-07-05, 09:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Red Dog
No. Marino is the greatest QB of the post-merger era. Period.

I don't treat John Elway any differently because he won a ring.
Exactly. Not saying Elway wasn't good but he would have never won two if TD wasn't there. Period.
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Old 08-07-05, 09:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Big Quasimodo
Re: Elway vs Marino (vs Jim Kelly)...

Certainly if a QB has had multiple chances to win a SB (ie, team has made the Super Bowl) and he doesn't win one, then it is fair to view him differently than someone who consistenly delivered during the regular season and won when it counted too.

Marino only got there once but is often called one of the all time greats. Kelly got there at least 4 times, but is rarely mentioned as an all timer...
Because Kelly, although certainly a great QB, was never close to being an "all-time great".

Marino couldn't play defense and he couldn't give the Dolphins a decent running back or offensive line. In Marino's entire career the Dolphins had one 1000 yard season from a RB. That's not going to get anyone a title.

You give Marino Terrell Davis and that Denver D of the late 90s and he's got two titles. To treat Elway as being much better than Marino because he had the good fortune to be on that team is silly.
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Old 08-07-05, 09:34 PM
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That headline in the OP is crap. I dont think Marino is the greatest of all time, but to say he's not even among the greatest is absurd. What are his playoff stats? I dont remember him being a choker like Manning.
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Old 08-07-05, 09:57 PM
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His playoff stats weren't great, but he wasn't a choker. He had some unfortunate times like in 1991 when Miami was in the second round against Buffalo and lost 44-34... even when they lost to Buffalo in the AFC Championship game a couple of years later it was mostly a "Dan can't do everything" sort of thing.

Even when they lost to SF in the Super Bowl he went for over 300 yards. Just his problem in that game was that San Francisco knew Miami couldn't run the ball and played 8 DBs for a good part of the game (going back to the running game he never had).
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Old 08-07-05, 11:16 PM
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I think Marino's the greatest player ever. While that's debatable, anyone who doesn't think he's a top 5 all-time QB should not be permitted to write about sports for a living. Most passing yards, TDs, 4th quarter comebacks, 2 minute comebacks, 40 TD seasons, 30 TD seasons, 2nd most wins, 3rd longest consecutive games streak among QBs, single season passing yards, 2nd most single season 300 yard games, 2nd most single season TDs, and he only played with 1 HOFer in his career (Stephenson). I'm pissed we're getting this guys article hits.
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Old 08-07-05, 11:43 PM
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To be honest, I think Marino and the Miami air attack beating the Bears in '85 in that memorable MNF game is more impressive than many QBs winning a Super Bowl.

It's too bad the Pats had to spoil the rematch that season.
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Old 08-08-05, 12:59 AM
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Originally Posted by kantonburg
Exactly. Not saying Elway wasn't good but he would have never won two if TD wasn't there. Period.
I like TD a lot, but I could run for 1200 yards with Denver. Any back with Denver in the past decade probably looks better than they truly are.

Does anyone believe Barry Sanders isn't one of the top 5 running backs of all time despite never winning a ring?

Marino is elite.
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Old 08-08-05, 01:53 AM
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Winning a championship isn't the only thing that matters - but it is one of the facotrs when considering a great player.

No doubt Marino was one of the greatest QBs ever...but I'd still take Joe Montana over him every day - even though Marino generally has the better numbers.

Warren Moon suffers from the same problem...good numbers - no rings. It certainly does knock them down the list a bit as far as I'm concerned.
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Old 08-08-05, 08:30 AM
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Dan Fouts has no rings, but is a HoFer as well.
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Old 08-08-05, 09:37 AM
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Originally Posted by twikoff
marino and manning never really got to play with a decent defense.. hard to fault either one of them for their teams troubles.. you cant really do anymore than either of them have.
Here's an angle I've been pondering a lot more recently. From a certain point of view, Manning is somewhat responsible for his team's lack of defense b/c of his enormous contract. By spending that much money on him, the Colts are not able to sign as much talent on defense as they would otherwise.

Now don't get me wrong. I'm not saying that Manning isn't worth all that money, nor that he shouldn't be seeking such compensation. I think he's arguably the best QB in the game today and that every professional athlete has the prerogative to seek the maximum compensation possible. However, that doesn't change that fact that the team would be much more likely to win if he were paid half as much and the savings could be spent upgrading their porous defense.

Then again, maybe that's the rub...Manning perhaps wants to be known for winning despite his defense, which would put all the credit on his shoulders. Now that's not necessarily a knock on him...all great QBs have inflated egos by typical standards.

One more thing, I'm not singling him out specifically. You could probably say the same for a number of other highly paid QBs. In fact, if you look at the last several Super Bowl winners, how many of them had QBs with mega deals along the lines of a Manning, McNabb or Vick?
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Old 08-08-05, 09:41 AM
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and dont forget that culpepper just signed a new deal.. because 104 million over 10 years wasnt enough
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Old 08-08-05, 09:59 AM
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Yep, I was thinking about that deal as well. That then begs the question, do these QBs care as much about winning as they do about the $$$? Or is it that the compensation factor is more about "respect" than the money?

I realize that maybe it isn't that simplistic. Perhaps a lot of these guys truly don't recognize that all the money they get is less money that could be spent on the rest of the team. You rarely (if ever) hear the media and football pundits knocking these huge deals for that reason, so maybe it isn't something that crosses their mind.
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Old 08-08-05, 11:21 AM
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One may knock Peyton for making so much, but he just signed his big contract last year, so the Colts had 6 or 7 years prior to that to get some defense, and they failed. When Manning was on his rookie deal, the Colts could have actually built a defense to the point where Peyton could accept less money so other guys on the team could get paid. The problem is that there is no one else.

Sure the Colts won't have a ton of money for free agents, but most free agents aren't worth the money. The real test will be in Manning restructures his deal so players like Dwight Freeney and so forth are able to be re-signed. Ditto with Vick. Ditto with McNabb is Philly ever had cap problems.
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Old 08-09-05, 02:41 AM
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I don't think Elway belongs in the same class as Montana, Staubach, and Starr.
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