Mark:

Question: Any chance that Digital Eyes' customer service will improve with the merger with DVD Planet? I hate to be a sarcastic, but your company continues to provide the worse service. And I hate to make it public, but I feel that it is important to allert others to possible problems when placing orders with your company.

Case in point. I recently place two orders for DVDs with your MGM $6.99 sale. Both orders I payed with PayPal. First order, no problem. Second order, no confirmation from Digital Eyes.

Hmmmmm....that sends off a warning bell. As you are well aware, Digital Eyes had "lost" at least three payments that I had made in the past via PayPal.

I immediately sent an email to Digital Eyes customer service (and to be safe, I cc'd you personally). The promised response took almost two weeks. Even though my email was very specific, copying my PayPal receipt and providing Digital Eyes with all of the important information, your customer service rep sent me a copy of the shipping invoice for my first order! A completely different order!!!! You of course, never bothered to respond.

I then called Digital Eyes and was informed that even though my payment was sitting in your bank, your company somehow never processed it.

That is, if I didn't call, you would have kept my money and I would have received nothing.

I was promised by "Andrea" that my entire "lost" order would be shipped out tomorrow, Friday, Sept 1. We'll see.

As stated above, this is not the first time I have experenced this type of "service" from your company. And I cannot believe that I am alone. If your company cannot properly process PayPal payments, why offer them? More importantly, why is it so incredibly hard for your customer service department to deal with issues like this?

Then again, consideringt the fact that about a year ago YOU requested that I provide you with additional information and emails from your less than stellar customer service department to help troubleshoot your system and then, after I spent a considerable time providing same to you, you simply ignored my request for a follow-up, it doesn't surprise me that you company continues to provide sub-par service.

Hopefully my experiences will help others in choosing the companies that they wish to spend their money at. Its a shame, Digitial Eyes/DVD Planet offers some of the best pricing for DVDs on the internet, their sales and coupons are very attractive, too bad, at least from my experience, they provide some of the worse customer service.

Thomas,

Thanks for your message. I did receive the e-mail you sent and forwarded it to customer service. I unfortunately cannot do the customer service functions and am looking into why the issue was not addressed. To your point about our problems with PayPal, I have decided to remove this as a payment option since it does not always work correctly. We will add the functionality back when we believe it is working correctly.

It is not my plan/desire to offer poor service and I am unhappy to hear you have had problems with our CS. I will be discussing this with the appropriate people to make sure that the payment option is removed from the site and that the service problems are rectified immediately.

Mark:

Thank you for your response. Of course, it does not address why this problem has continued for over a year before you have decided to "discuss this with the appropriate people".

As for not being able to personally deal with customer service functions, I would suggest in the future that you do not personally request that your customers interface with YOU directly in trying to troubleshoot you systems problems. YOU ask your customers to take time out of their day to help YOUR company, but you can't provide them with the same courtesy? That really says a lot.

To be honest, your comments strike me as a cop-out. You seem to have plenty of time to post here (i.e. promote and advertise) your companies products and to answer mundane questions about availability of titles, but you can't be bothered when your company "loses" payments from your customers on a regular basis? I would suggest that if that is truly the case, your priporities are very questionable.

One request-maybe while you are "talking to the appropriate people", you can make sure that the representations of your customer service person "Andria" that my missing order will in fact be mailed out tomorrow as promised. It would be nice to report that the representations made by your customer service people was in fact a truthful statment. Thank you.

Thomas,

DVD Talk is really not the forum for customer service, but since you have not yet responded to an inquiry from customer service I am forced to address here.

My assistant has e-mailed you and requested some information so that we could expedite your shipment out tonight so you will have in your hands tomorrow. If you want to finish this out here, please give us your personal address so we can UPS overnight the discs to you or simply respond to David's e-mail.

We redesigned the PayPal process and it did not take care of 100% of the problem. It did in fact reduce the non-posted payments considerably, but we are shooting to have 100% so we will take the functionality down until the process is re-worked again.

Mark

Mark:

I must take offense to your initial statement that this is not the forum to deal with customer service issues. The fact of the matter is that I am simply advising others of my experiences, poor and unacceptable in my opinion, with your company. I have simply stated facts regarding service issues in my posts here, facts which you have not disputed. The fact is that when I tried to contact you personally and your customer service department with my concerns, I got the run-around. My problem was only fixed when it was made public. This type of corporate behavior should be known to the general public and then let the public decide if they wish to do business with that kind of company.

Let me ask you this-do you think it is acceptable for a company to accept payments for products and then, regularly "lose" those payments? Obviously this is on ongoing problem. A problem that you were aware of, and only when it was brought to the public's attention here, did you address it. Not one time, in the many times that this has happened to me, did Digital Eyes ever catch their mistake.

Let me ask you this. When Digital Eyes gets a payment from PayPal, doesn't that signal to someone in your company that an order has been placed? Or is it a common occurance that money just randomly shows up in your accounts?

Ironically, you complain that "since you have not yet responded to an inquiry from customer service" when in fact it is YOU and YOUR COMPANY that has continously failed to respond to my inquiries.

Finally, to address one other mis-statement of yours, as of 1:45 PM (an hour and fifteen minutes since you claimed to have had someone write me) NO ONE from Digital Eyes has contacted me, not you, not David, not anyone. Nada. Zip-o. No emails, no telephone calls, no carrier pigeons. I guess this must be another example of the "miscommunications" that you will need to address with the proper people? Maybe "David's" email ended up the same place that my PayPal payments go? Hopelessly lost in your system?

Lastly, you state: "If you want to finish this out here, please give us your personal address so we can UPS overnight the discs." May I ask what purpose this serves other than to harass a customer that has experience a number of problems with your company. I would think that any legitimate company that was concerned about their customers would not stoop so low as to engage in this type of behavior. Why in the world would you need my address? You company has my address on file, my address was provided on my order, and my address was confirmed by your customer service person when they "found" my PayPal payment. So, I ask again, why would you ask me to post my home address on a public forum? What real purpose would that serve? What's next? Would you like me to also provide the forum with my telephone number, social security number, date of birth and credit card information while I'm at it?

And again, I need to point out that this is not the first time, this is not an isolated incident. I've spent at least a few thousand dollars with your company over the years, you would think that a legitmate businessman would at some point, rather than argue and make excuses, simply say "sorry" to a long-time customer when said businessman's company made the same mistake FOUR TIMES to the same customer.

I'm sure there are many people here who have had wonderful, stress free experiences with Digital Eyes. I wish I could say that I have. But for those who haven't ordered and are thinking about it, hopefully they will factor in my experiences into their decission making process.

I've never had a problem with Digital Eyes, before or after the merger with DVD Planet. I appreciate the fact that Mark Harrill takes some time to check this forum periodically, and I appreciate the frequent buyers program, and the monthly coupons.

How often is it that you even have the ability to speak with one of the head-honchos of one of the best e-commerce DVD sites to make suggestions? The saying that the customer is always right is not always true. As someone who's worked in retail for a long time, one begins to realize when a complaint is turning into a personal attack.

I sympathize with you, but I don't think it's totally necessary to trash the entire company. Perhaps you might consider using a payment option other than PayPal.

I have in the past had some issues with the PayPal payment method, but customer service did address the issue in a timely manner. I simply stopped using the PayPal method. It feels like the customer service is a bunch of contract workers that Mark never sees. That is probably why he can only do so much in that department. The CS seems a little limited in what they can do - it really is the one sore point I have with DE/DVDPlanet. I do however shop there a lot - CS is problem most places IMHO. I mean, one of the sites founders takes time to personally talk to us about the site and address our concerns. Name another site that does this.

Oh, and what I actually came in here about - thanks for looking into the Paramount HD-DVD situation.

Do you understand that he's a businessman? He's not doing this out of the goodness of his heart. He's doing it to sell something to you (and everyone else who visits here). And he wants to sell as many DVDs as he can. There's nothing wrong with that, just don't go believing that he's doing this out of the kindness of his heart.

IMO, it would nice if he spent a little less time trying to sell everyone here more products and spent a little more time ensuring that is company's current customers' orders are processed properly. But that's just an issue of priorities.



Let me ask you this: working retail as you have, is it EVER acceptable to recieve payment from a customer and then not provide the customer with the goods and/or services paid for?

This is a fact that I experienced and have complained about to Digital Eyes on a number of occassions. My complaints fell on deaf ears and only until I brought them up publicaly were they addressed.

I'm cursious, since you brought it up, what part of my complaint does not fall under "the customer is always right" in your opinion?


Not trashing an entire company, just repeating what I have experienced. As for your suggestion to try another payment option other than PayPal, well, that's just another way of blaiming the consumer for the mistakes and problems of a retailer. It is the retailer's responsibility to ensure that a transaction proceeds smoothly with a customer. If a retailer offers to accept a certain type of payment, it is that retailer's responsibility to make sure that method actually works.

For the sake of arguement (since you suggested it), let's change payment via PayPal to payment via cash at your local appliance store. Let's assume that you paid cash for an item, you received a reciept for that payment, the item (let's say a TV set) was suppose to be delievered to your home and then you never received that item. You call the store and leave messages about the problem to not only the store, but the manager of the store as well, but no one calls you back. Now assume that you go back to the store, receipt in hand, and ask about your TV set. The person behind the counter tells you that you already received your washing machine (ignoring the fact that the receipt you have provided to them clearly states you paid for a TV set) and thank you for your business. Only after writing a letter to the local paper does the owner of the store address your complaint and has your TV set delivered. In this case, as someone with retail experience, would you give essentially the same advice as you gave here? That is, simply "next time don't pay cash". Using your logic, its not the appliance store's fault that the order was mixed up, if the person buying the TV set didn't pay cash, there wouldn't have been a problem. In your world, is this an example of the customer not being right?

Let's not confuse the issue, Digitial Eyes received payments from me (and I assume others) via PayPal. The money was in their account, along with a note that detailed a) who the customer was, b) the customer's contact information-email addrss and physical address and c) an order number along with what was ordered. To try and blame PayPal or a bug in the computer system, just doesn't cut it. When they "found" my order today, like they "found" it in the past, it was complete and they were able to process it without any additional information from me. They (Digital Eyes) had it all the time, it was just "misplaced". The fact that several orders were "misplaced" on a regular basis over the past year+ is what gave me pause to think. The fact that when I attempted to resolve this problem through the normal customer service route I was greeted with misinformation and delays led me to my comments here.

No one is perfect, and there are bound to be mistakes in any business. I think what seperates a good business and a bad one is how they deal with those problems and mistakes. By his own admissions, Mr. Harrill admitted that they have had such a big problem with the non-posting of payments that they had to redesign their system. What's interesting to me is that even after they had this problem in the past, there were no red flags in their customer service department when a complaint such as this was received. In this instance, it was business as usual-that is, they completely failed to address my concerns, and did so in a very untimely matter.

The bottom line is: a customer should not be forced to chase down a store/company/vender/ect to ensure that he or she recieves the goods that he or she paid for. In the relivant instances here, if I did not send emails/call their customer service people/post here, I probably would have been out the hundreds of dollars that I paid to Digital Eyes. And that, in my eyes at least, is unacceptable. Its a very basic requirement-a customer should get what they paid for.

And with that, I will say that (hopefully) this is my last word on the subject. I'm not going to belabor the issue or "trash" this company. The facts have been placed out there, and people can make their own opinion on what is acceptable and not acceptable in regards to the behavior of businesses they choose to spend their money at.

The thing is that you didn't pay the money directly to digital eyes, you used a third party to handle the transaction. And that third party is notorious for accounting errors and database mixups among other things. Hence, the creation of the paypal sucks website.

All of the companies I've done business with have had customers filing complaints relating to their order relating to paypal payment problems. They probably shouldn't do business with such a shady company but they do. And so if you want to avoid headaches, you ought to be proactive and take steps to avoid them by not doing stupid things like using paypal for purchases that allow you to use other options.

Thomas,

Thanks for taking the time to write. I do see that your package was overnighted and should be there today. As you correctly pointed out I did in fact neglect to apologize for the problems.

I am extremely sorry that there were problems with your order. I really wish they had not occurred and I wish that I had apologized in my very first response.

I also want to note that I did confirm the e-mail to you from David had been sent 30 minutes before I responded to you on the board. I have no idea why you did not instantly receive the message.

The re-work of the PayPal payment method is scheduled to be completed soon and should take care of this once and for all.

Thanks,

Mark

So what happened, Did you receive your order? You never told us what happened? You must have received them and only wanted us to see the negative part of your transaction.

Sorry. I didn't realize I was suppose to give a progress report. But since you asked....

Jackson2006 to Jacqueline Kennedy: "So Jacqueline, let's overlook that nasty bit where your husband was killed, how was your trip to Dallas as a whole?"

To answer your question:

Yes.

After waiting weeks while my payment was "lost"; after waiting weeks and not getting any replies to my emails to customer service; I finally received part of my order (some of it was back-ordered).

Considering that this was the third or fourth time (I've lost track), I think that pretty much all of this transaction would qualifiy as "negative".

And considering that the founder of the company, Mark Harrill, publically announced here that he has no time to deal with customer service problems, it won't surprise me if this type of poor customer service continues.

Let's see, Mr. Harrill has time to post announcements about $5 off coupons and which DVDs are currently on sale and which ones aren't, but when a customer complains that his company has continually (three or four times for me personally) "lost" or "misplaced" an order or a payment, there's definitely a problem with priorities.

Sounds to me like they are happy to take your money, but if there's any problems with fulfilling their part of the bargain, they're too busy to be bothered.



NOW. Once again, I hope that this will be my LAST post on the subject. All the sycophants and apologists can reply and defend Digitial Eyes mistakes and problems to their little hearts' desire, my position is simple-a customer/consumer's ONLY obligation is to pay the money, if the retailer's mistakes/problems/poor business practices force the customer/consumer to do extra work to get what they paid for, there's a problem with the company. If a "mistake" happens more than once (say 3 or 4 times for this particular customer-who knows how many times it happen to others, but by the statements made by the company's representative, its happen to others as well), it's more than a simple forgiveable "mistake".

Some people may disagree and that's fine--there's no law requiring people to demand that a business treat them with respect. To those people though, I'm reminded of the scene in Animal House, where their pledges are being hit with paddles and forced to say "Thank you sir, can I have another". Lots of people today get taken advantage of by poor customer service and instead of standing up for themselves, they simply grab their ankles and say "thank you sir, can I have another".

Wow.

[QUOTE=litza]Sorry. I didn't realize I was suppose to give a progress report. But since you asked....

Jackson2006 to Jacqueline Kennedy: "So Jacqueline, let's overlook that nasty bit where your husband was killed, how was your trip to Dallas as a whole?"

To answer your question:

Yes.
HOW DARE YOU PUT WORDS IN MY MOUTH!!!
Now you are attacking me because I asked a simple question if you received your order. I asked because you made all these posts about your order. So many people post here on Dvd Talk but never say the result. Was there any harm in asking SIR??? NO there was not.

We all know your mad but for some reason you want to keep saying negative things .

I can see why Jackson2006 is enraged. That's over the line.

WOW, indeed.

No. You didn't ask a "simple question" you asked a question and then added an editorial comment. Quote: "You must have received them and only wanted us to see the negative part of your transaction." Implying that I was simply here to stir up trouble. YOU made a passive-aggressive insult to me and my character.

As for only saying negative things, I hardly believe that fighting for one's rights are "negative".

Sir I Did not make an insult to you or your character. I mentioned that you never told us the result of what happened. You are not the only one that does this. We never know the results. I even said that that you are mad about but you looked past this.

Every consumer has the right to purchase from wherever they want. There are posts saying that they were looking into your issue and helping you. We understand you are upset and us as consumers will look at your posts and the posts from the company.


DO NOT PUT WORDS IN MY MOUTH and IMPLY that you were here to start trouble. I did not and will not insult your character. Thank you

So do the rest of us, but apparently that is not to be the case.

Exactly, you have a bad experience somewhere.....stop shopping there....very easy solution.

Thanks Litza for posting your experience, but seriously, its starting to become absurd.

BOY- I will probably regret posting the following as my first post here....but, sad to say, I don't always avoid the foolish.

Before the foolish part- let me first say that, unbeknownst to you all, for the past few weeks, I have been listening to your suggestions, using posted coupons, etc., etc. Amazing work, you all, and thanks so much. (Although with the money I've been spending.....you all should be ashamed of yourselves, too. )

Now, back to foolish mode.....And please understand that, being new here, my perspective is admittedly limited, as I don't know the history of these "DVD Planet Debates"- and I'm not inclined to read page after page of DVD Talk Forum history. Nevertheless, perhaps let me give some perspective from an (I hope) unbiased and new source.....

For understandable reasons or not, it would appear to me that, lengthy messages or not, I find it discomforting how a few folks are spending a certain amount of postings knocking someone for their complaints about customer service- while at the same time not necessarily as a group also saying to the head of a company here who apparently posts messages something to the effect of, "Hey, bub, get it together and fix these problems pronto." There's power in numbers- and you all might want to consider how you'd like others to respond with your own customer problems that, ya never know, might come up one day.

And BTW, if you're going to post a comment such as "So what happened, Did you receive your order? You never told us what happened? You must have received them and only wanted us to see the negative part of your transaction"- then don't be shocked or appalled if you get a less than happy response. Trust me, that post to me reads as a slam. If it's intentional (and I'm sorry, my vote is that this was intentional)- then, hey, be proud and admit it. If not (to be fair, it's easy to miscommunicate in an e-mail)- then, at least be ready to see how it'd be easy to see how someone could have been insulted by such a post. I know I'd have slammed right back.

And, just because you've never had a bad experience with a company- doesn't mean that this is the same for everyone. Your turn at bat for bad service could be coming at any point.

I also for a few years have had nothing to complain about with DVD Planet- thought they were great, in fact (AND I'm also in Illinois, where they are)....until my last order. Now, I'm a compulsive person, and copy everything. Wouldn't you know (Murphy's Law and all)- with my last DVD Planet order, I didn't make a copy of my purchase order....but I will SWEAR on a stack of bibles that I did NOT order 2 copies each of Criterion's "Metropolitan" and "Henry V." I never got e-mail confirmation for my first, true order- but now my AmExp has been charged for these extra copies. PLUS, in the "My Account" section on their site, they had listed 2 DVD's in the "Open Orders" section that had already been sent to me! And, that, too, makes me nervous. I sure as heck don't want to be charged for any more duplicates!!

So, I have taken the time to e-mail and then call Customer Service. (Thus, I'm not asking for nor expecting the owner to contact me just yet- I get an owner shouldn't be called in until all other options are exhausted. STILL- obviously, I'm not immune to hoping this all will get read, thus making him aware of all of this now, either, HINT, HINT. ) The person I spoke with over the phone (after a first call where, after a decent wait, my call got disconnected) was also a tinge snooty. My thing is, your company is already charging me somehow for duplicate copies, you admit it's your error but you give me no explanation for how this all happened in the first place when I ask- well, ya bet then that I'm gonna confirm what we've agreed to do each and every step of the way- you aren't making me assume your competence at this point. So, for example, when I say, "Just to confirm, you're taking off the final season of Buffy and Desert Hearts from what is listed for me as Open Orders, since you already sent me these orders" (and you admit that you have no record of having sent Buffy to me!!), I don't expect the response to be, "Didn't I just tell you I'm going to do that?" Not to mention the snippy tone. And, sadly, I could give a few other examples of less-than-pleasant interactions with this guy over the phone. (And I swear on a second stack of bibles- I'm a pretty nice, if apparently wordy, guy.)

In any case, supposedly, as of Monday I'm going to get e-mailed postage so I can mail back the duplicate copies and get refunded, at hopefully no additional cost to me. (And BTW- why this couldn't be e-mailed to me the same day as my call? Good question!) This all works out- fine. If it doesn't- then ya bet I'm gonna start considering calling out the DigitalEyes person. As is true of litza, I've also given DVD Planet much, much business. Ironically, I came on here to see if others had bum experiences with DVD Planet, to get feedback. If I was the lone wolf with a screw-up here, I'd have left this alone for now on this site. But, after reading a few pages of posts- I can see that litza clearly isn't the only person who has had problems. So, I figured I'd add my gripes to the list.

Again, keep in mind that, just because screw-ups haven't happened to you, doesn't mean they won't. And believe me, you'll get annoyed, too, if you get to be the unlucky one.

And I didn't use PayPal for any of this, BTW. (Although, ironically enough, I've always had perfect experiences with PayPal. Hope I don't have to get paranoid about PayPal now, too.... )

In any case, I do hope all of this works out, so I can join back in with the Happy DVDPlanet crew here- you all know it ain't easy getting decent prices on Criterions.

And I SWEAR I don't mean any of this as a true slam on the DigitalEyes person. I'm sure he's a saint and always hugs kittens and whatever, for all I know.

HOWEVER- I am nervous about using a site that can send me duplicates, charge me for them, and give me no explanation for what went wrong. Bottom line- this bizarre kind of error should not happen. True, anyone can make a mistake- I run programs for hundreds of seniors, I get that- but you can darn well be sure that the seniors would NOT let me get away with such a screw-up without a full explanation, and an immediate fix.

I'd be embarrassed big time by such an error, and would demand of myself to fix the problem right away- and I expect the same from my staff. As a supervisor and Director, if staff screw up, the seniors, the funders, our sponsor, etc. aren't placated by me saying, "Oh, it's not my fault, it's THEIR fault." Bottom line- they screw up, it's as good as if I screwed up. And that's the way it should be. Supervisors make more money than their staff- which means you should expect a greater level of responsibility. No one forces you to be a supervisor. Especially with bigger or recurring problem areas, you've gotta directly work with your staff as/when needed, not to get off on a blame-game, but just to be sure that the problem gets fixed.

I expect the same treatment when I'm the customer. And in social services with seniors, you'd BETTER go with assuming that the customer is "right". Even when they're objectively not- just acting as if they ARE fixes a lot of problems. I say, that's the deal when you agree to work with customers. 'Cause otherwise worrying about being "right" ain't gonna help you if your customers walk away. Ain't gonna help you pay your own bills, either.

This is my first time having a bum experience with an internet company giving me DVD's. After reading of litza's concerns, and some others- I admit I'm real gun-shy with DVD Planet here, at least temporarily. I know one thing- one other similar experience and I will be out- mind you, AFTER that problem gets fixed. Ain't gonna hang in there as long as litza, if I feel the same way a second time. I go by that useful cliche, f**k me once, shame on you, f**k me twice, shame on me.

I know you used the term "for example", but has this actually been an issue
for you (the dvds being sent yet staying on your open orders page)? I ask
because it has with me on numerous occasions lately. ...And I also seem to
get the same CS rep you mentioned (though for me his issue is that it's my
wife's name on the account instead of mine and that he really doesn't want
to discuss anything with me even though I can quote him every detail about
the account including password and CC info). He even followed up his attitude
by e-mailing me with a reminder not to call about the account again since
my first name wasn't on it, yet nothing was mentioned about the actual
problem.

litza ,

By reading each post in order I took Mark's second post to you and Jackson2006s question the same way you did. You were firm and you had every right to be when you lose out on that much money. And you especially didn't take any crap from people not in your position.

Being screwed by a company because of a continuing problem in a payment method offered by them is unacceptable no matter what anyone says.

In all the threads where a person from a company, store, or whatever shows up here you'll notice that most members instead of being respectable (which depending on the situation is proper) they go well beyond and become ass kissers and defend that person and his company no matter what.

I understand that if I had received excellent customer service from a company that I would write to say "I have ordered from Digitaleyes.net many times and I have had a wonderful experience overall." but I would in no way try to disgrace or insult you because you didn't and you were handling the problem in the way you thought was best.

So, Well Done! Obivously taking your problem into the public got your Dvds shipped to you and on a minor note you gained my respect in the process.


P.S. I have ordered from Digitaleyes.net many times and I have had a wonderful experience overall.

You know, I have been having some issues with DVDPlanet's customer service as well. I have emailed their customer service address twice, along with Mark Harril's address asking for a receipt on my trade-ins. It has been several weeks and I haven't gotten a response. I mean, is it really THAT hard to respond to a simple request like that?

As far as I can tell (albeit I hadn't been checking the My Account Section that carefully, since there hadn't been problems before), this is the first time I've had any problems with DVD Planet. Still, these are a lot of errors. AND- I just checked on their site- and wouldn't you know, Buffy's final season and Desert Hearts are both still listed in the "My Account" section as Open Orders- so much for the customer service guy who had rather snippily informed me he had taken care of this immediately. Sheesh. I'll be sure to post (briefer, I promise) follow-ups with all of this.

the problem is that this thread is not the place. there is an entire forum called "Store Forum" that is for people to post about their experiences with different stores. This thread is for COUPONS. This is the BARGAIN forum. People are not coming into this thread wanting to read pages of bitching. Nothing wrong with sharing your bad experiences but:
1. this is not the thread to do it in
2. if you are going to write angered novellas again and again on the same topic, you should damn well expect people to get tired of your reading your bullshit and say so.