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Religion, Politics and World Events They make great dinner conversation, don't you think? plus Political Film

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Old 08-01-17, 11:43 PM   #51
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Re: Should we just get rid of the States and become America?

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Originally Posted by inri222 View Post
No more blue laws please.
That's a good example related to the thread topic.

Do people want the federal government to establish "blue laws" in every state and locality?

Do people want the federal government to abolish or ban "blue laws" in every state?

Or do people want the right to have public referendums on such laws and/or elect representatives who will pass laws reflecting their views (pro- or anti- blue laws)?

Don't most people find the latter approach to be the best?
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Old 08-02-17, 12:01 AM   #52
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Re: Should we just get rid of the States and become America?

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Originally Posted by inri222 View Post
No more blue laws please.
I mentioned this in my post : Blue laws suck. More importantly, they are either totally arbitrary or unconstitutional. Either they're based on the arbitrary decision that you shouldn't be allowed to do things on a Sunday that you are allowed to do every other day of the week just because we say so, or they're to honor the holy Sabbath (as observed by Christians), which is a law made to honor religious beliefs -- something strictly prohibited by the First Amendment. Neither is a supportable position.

What defense is there that could possibly support them?

BTW : Nevada has exactly ONE blue law : No car sales are allowed on Sunday. Care to guess who pushed that bit of legislation through the state legislature in a state where pretty much everything short of murder is fair game?
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Mormon car dealership owners
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Old 08-02-17, 12:15 AM   #53
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Re: Should we just get rid of the States and become America?

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What defense is there that could possibly support them?
What defense other than moral objections from the community can be offered for any laws prohibiting activities ("vices") that are legally permitted elsewhere?
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Old 08-02-17, 12:31 AM   #54
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Re: Should we just get rid of the States and become America?

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What defense other than moral objections from the community can be offered for any laws prohibiting activities ("vices") that are legally permitted elsewhere?
Morality independent of religious belief. Such things do exist. I don't need the Ten Commandments to know that Murder and Theft are wrong.

I do fail to see a non-religious justification for any special rules for an entire community that only apply to Sunday.
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Old 08-02-17, 01:17 AM   #55
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Re: Should we just get rid of the States and become America?

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Morality independent of religious belief. Such things do exist. I don't need the Ten Commandments to know that Murder and Theft are wrong.

I do fail to see a non-religious justification for any special rules for an entire community that only apply to Sunday.
Uh...could you name ANY locality in the U.S. that doesn't have "blue laws" against murder and theft?

(Well, except for legal killings and thefts sanctioned, permitted, or perpetrated by the government, but there are threads devoted to those topics).

Do all people agree on the morality considering surrounding gambling, drug and alcohol use, prostitution, gun ownership, and other activities?

If one allows for non-morality-based rationales for prohibition of those activities (health concerns, addictions, etc.), one could equally argue for the health benefits of having a day of rest. In fact, unions could argue that such provisions are necessary to prevent abuse of workers. And studies could probably be found to demonstrate the health benefits. As for why the day of rest should be Sunday, it has to be one day of the week, so might as well be the same day when the majority of the religious folk in a community worship.

Those arguments won't convince everyone, but neither do arguments against
those other prohibitions and restrictions mentioned above.

As for "morality independent of religious belief," that's just semantics. When people holding certain beliefs impose those beliefs upon others, the source of the beliefs don't matter. The effect is still the same.
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Old 08-02-17, 01:34 AM   #56
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Re: Should we just get rid of the States and become America?

To answer the OP: uhhh... no. The USA would end up like Africa or the Middle East. Short spurts of peace. And then all kinds of political upsets, constant wars, famine, etc. I think that'd be the model. It'd be hard to envision a scenario where we become individual states that work together like the EU.

I think if the outskirts from both sides would quit fighting, everyone towards the middle would experience more prosperity. I've always thought it, and I still believe it today ... 95% of the bitter opposition is bolstered by 5% loudmouths. They offend and thus engage and energize everyone who would otherwise be happy to compromise. There's a tiny population of screaming voices that makes it harder for everyone to get along.

I'm more of a stay-together-for-the-kids kind of guy. It'll never be perfect. But it's the best we got. Weapons exist to ensure human extinction. Because of this, society creeps forward and could end at any moment. We should be treasure every day we get to wake up ... at all.

It's getting late. Sweet dreams everyone!
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Old 08-02-17, 05:36 AM   #57
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Re: Should we just get rid of the States and become America?

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Originally Posted by Decker View Post
Morality independent of religious belief. Such things do exist. I don't need the Ten Commandments to know that Murder and Theft are wrong.

I do fail to see a non-religious justification for any special rules for an entire community that only apply to Sunday.
I can: maybe a local community wants to be sure that employers can't force employees to work both weekend days every week so that they can have time with their family when they also are not working. Doesn't matter if they pick Saturday or Sunday, and of course emergency services would need to be exempt, but I can see that kind of justification.
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Old 08-02-17, 06:01 AM   #58
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Re: Should we just get rid of the States and become America?

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I can: maybe a local community wants to be sure that employers can't force employees to work both weekend days every week so that they can have time with their family when they also are not working. Doesn't matter if they pick Saturday or Sunday, and of course emergency services would need to be exempt, but I can see that kind of justification.


Your reasoning is very similar to what I posted above. If for health reasons, one could argue that weekend is arbitrary, but traditionally, most "rest days" come on weekends (along with a lot of professional and amateur recreational events & opportunities). But the employer-abuse factor you mention would be a logical argument for having some general "day of rest" unless the days were staggered for all employees (which is sometimes done anyway). For the sake of convenience for planning, though, most communities seem to prefer a standardized "off-day" (or days) such as weekend.

And, traditionally, most communities which include a large percentage of worshipers tend to worship on Sunday. That isn't inclusive for all religions and religious traditions, naturally, but neither is closing government offices on Christmas Day, either. At some point, what seems best for the most people is taken into account just as it is with making public decisions and polices in other arenas.
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Old 08-02-17, 06:06 AM   #59
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Re: Should we just get rid of the States and become America?

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Originally Posted by Bandoman View Post
I can: maybe a local community wants to be sure that employers can't force employees to work both weekend days every week so that they can have time with their family when they also are not working. Doesn't matter if they pick Saturday or Sunday, and of course emergency services would need to be exempt, but I can see that kind of justification.
This is exactly it, and a major reason why labor unions have supported blue laws throughout their history.
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Old 08-02-17, 07:23 AM   #60
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Re: Should we just get rid of the States and become America?

My problem with Blue Laws in N.C. is you can't buy Mad Dog before noon on Sunday, or Knotty Head at all during the Sabbath...indefensible!

I like to be toasty while I'm watching early Sunday NFL games. I need to be prepared!
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Old 08-02-17, 08:12 AM   #61
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Re: Should we just get rid of the States and become America?

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Originally Posted by Fist of Doom View Post
My problem with Blue Laws in N.C. is you can't buy Mad Dog before noon on Sunday, or Knotty Head at all during the Sabbath...indefensible!

I like to be toasty while I'm watching early Sunday NFL games. I need to be prepared!
If you don't like it, you can start a voter campaign to get it changed.

I remember when nobody here could buy alcoholic beverages on Sunday. There was caution tape across the aisle in the grocery store. The law was changed so I could buy alcohol after 12:00. Sunday sales of mouthwash dropped dramatically.
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Old 08-02-17, 08:49 AM   #62
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Re: Should we just get rid of the States and become America?

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Originally Posted by Decker View Post
Morality independent of religious belief. Such things do exist. I don't need the Ten Commandments to know that Murder and Theft are wrong.

I do fail to see a non-religious justification for any special rules for an entire community that only apply to Sunday.
Exactly. There is a huge difference between accommodating for the fact that most people want Sunday off from work for whatever reason, and making laws that specific goods and services cannot be sold/operate on Sunday.

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Originally Posted by Bandoman View Post
I can: maybe a local community wants to be sure that employers can't force employees to work both weekend days every week so that they can have time with their family when they also are not working. Doesn't matter if they pick Saturday or Sunday, and of course emergency services would need to be exempt, but I can see that kind of justification.
Problem is that is this modern society is that it's far more than just traditional emergency services (medical service, police force, fire department, etc.). Much of it comes from the fact that and increasing number of people that are in favor of getting Saturday and Sunday off from work all but expect everybody else to work to support what they choose to do outside their home on those days.
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Old 08-02-17, 08:55 AM   #63
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Re: Should we just get rid of the States and become America?

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Problem is that is this modern society is that it's far more than just traditional emergency services (medical service, police force, fire department, etc.). Much of it comes from the fact that and increasing number of people that are in favor of getting Saturday and Sunday off from work all but expect everybody else to work to support what they choose to do outside their home on those days.
Oh, I totally get it. That's why the community has to decide whether this is the right solution for them. If enough members of the community want to be able to shop for whatever they want on Sundays, they will vote for politicians who will not enact blue laws.
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Old 08-02-17, 09:14 AM   #64
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Re: Should we just get rid of the States and become America?

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Oh, I totally get it. That's why the community has to decide whether this is the right solution for them. If enough members of the community want to be able to shop for whatever they want on Sundays, they will vote for politicians who will not enact blue laws.
But the was point is that there has to be limits. And those limits are very well demonstrated by the ridiculous blue laws that, in many cases, are not even represented by a majority in that community. But I agree the way to get them removed is to elect new leaders, or push for the current leaders to remove them.

My original point that I posted in this thread still stands. The real problem with the state law process IMO, is that something as important (and otherwise consistent) like age of sexual consent, discrimination law, etc. should never differ state by state.
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Old 08-02-17, 09:24 AM   #65
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Re: Should we just get rid of the States and become America?

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But the was point is that there has to be limits. And those limits are very well demonstrated by the ridiculous blue laws that, in many cases, are not even represented by a majority in that community. But I agree the way to get them removed is to elect new leaders, or push for the current leaders to remove them.

My original point that I posted in this thread still stands. The real problem with the state law process IMO, is that something as important (and otherwise consistent) like age of sexual consent, discrimination law, etc. should never differ state by state.
Why do you think the blue laws aren't supported by the majority of the community? When the ban on Sunday liquor sales was reduced here, it was a very close vote.
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Old 08-02-17, 09:30 AM   #66
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Re: Should we just get rid of the States and become America?

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Why do you think the blue laws aren't supported by the majority of the community? When the ban on Sunday liquor sales was reduced here, it was a very close vote.
So you admit the majority voted to change a blue law in your area and you are questioning my post?

Not all of them have come to a vote, and it's very possible each community no longer has the majority that was there when the law was put in place.
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Old 08-02-17, 09:51 AM   #67
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Re: Should we just get rid of the States and become America?

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Why do you think the blue laws aren't supported by the majority of the community? When the ban on Sunday liquor sales was reduced here, it was a very close vote.
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Originally Posted by hdnmickey View Post
So you admit the majority voted to change a blue law in your area and you are questioning my post?

Not all of them have come to a vote, and it's very possible each community no longer has the majority that was there when the law was put in place.
Posts like this miss the point : It doesn't matter if the majority of the local population support a religion-based Blue Law -- that's the whole point of the First Amendment. As a member of a religious minority who doesn't observe the Sabbath on a Sunday, I should be protected under the Constitution and able to stay at home on my Sabbath of Saturday and be allowed to go shopping and buy things on my other day off of Sunday, shouldn't I? Does the fact that there are far more of them than their are of my people mean I'm not entitled to the same protections as they are? It shouldn't require a vote or a change of legislature to get things changed for me; if a law is unconstitutional, it doesn't really matter how popular it is.

I do understand that certain blue laws are put in place for the good of the community and I could get behind an ordnance that, for example, prohibited loud music and assemblies on Sunday morning where most parishioners are in church and desire peace and quiet. But how does it negatively affect the most pious Quaker's life if I am allowed to buy a 12 pack of beer on a Sunday if I so desire? If he doesn't want to sell one to me, then don't take that job or don't work Sundays.
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Old 08-02-17, 10:01 AM   #68
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Re: Should we just get rid of the States and become America?

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Posts like this miss the point : It doesn't matter if the majority of the local population support a religion-based Blue Law -- that's the whole point of the First Amendment. As a member of a religious minority who doesn't observe the Sabbath on a Sunday, I should be protected under the Constitution and able to stay at home on my Sabbath of Saturday and be allowed to go shopping and buy things on my other day off of Sunday, shouldn't I? Does the fact that there are far more of them than their are of my people mean I'm not entitled to the same protections as they are? It shouldn't require a vote or a change of legislature to get things changed for me; if a law is unconstitutional, it doesn't really matter how popular it is.
I totally agree with you, just replying to what was posted. It's clear some of these drift into minority discrimination and I would support challenging the laws in that way in addition to others trying to get them removed through the voting process.
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