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You say Gun control i say gun rights let's call the whole thing off discussion

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You say Gun control i say gun rights let's call the whole thing off discussion

Old 07-14-18, 04:19 PM
  #1126  
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Re: You say Gun control i say gun rights let's call the whole thing off discussion

Originally Posted by Sdallnct View Post
Easy response, seems "our strictest gun laws" aren't really that strict. Which seems obvious if he had a gun 8 hours after being released.

Again, and again, no one is advocating no guns ever for anyone.

You say things "might have been different" if one of the three had a gun and was trained. What are you advocating with that statement? All people be armed and trained? Providing guns to all violent crime victims? If a criminal could get a gun in 8 hours what stopped them from getting a gun? Are you sure they wanted a gun?
If he had wanted heroin eight hours after being released instead of a gun, do you think it wold have been possible for the government to have stopped him?
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Old 07-14-18, 04:24 PM
  #1127  
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Re: You say Gun control i say gun rights let's call the whole thing off discussion

Originally Posted by Sdallnct View Post
Easy response, seems "our strictest gun laws" aren't really that strict. Which seems obvious if he had a gun 8 hours after being released.

Again, and again, no one is advocating no guns ever for anyone.

You say things "might have been different" if one of the three had a gun and was trained. What are you advocating with that statement? All people be armed and trained? Providing guns to all violent crime victims? If a criminal could get a gun in 8 hours what stopped them from getting a gun? Are you sure they wanted a gun?
The SAFE Act stops criminals and the dangerously mentally ill from buying a gun by requiring universal background checks on gun purchases, increases penalties for people who use illegal guns, mandates life in prison without parole for anyone who murders a first responder, and imposes the toughest assault weapons ban in the country. For hunters, sportsmen, and law abiding gun owners, this new law preserves and protects your right to buy, sell, keep or use your guns."
- Governor Andrew Cuomo
Safe Act

Apparently this gentleman decided not to follow the law.

I'm not knocking law enforcement. I am a member of law enforcement. I see firsthand people getting their hands on guns within hours of getting out of jail.

What I am advocating is that the police cannot stop crime from happening. Gun laws cannot keep guns out of the hands of criminals. For someone in the position of an abusive relationship where the person has demonstrated a pattern of abuse, a pattern of getting out of jail and repeating the abuse, a pattern of ignoring orders of protection having a gun for self defense is a right that should have been practiced here. The police report does not mention any reason why any one of them would have been barred from owning.
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Old 07-14-18, 04:52 PM
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Re: You say Gun control i say gun rights let's call the whole thing off discussion

Originally Posted by grundle View Post
So the bad guy had no trouble getting a gun, while the good guys were unarmed and helpless. That's the worst possible scenario.
So far I haven't found any reason why they would have been prohibited from owning. There is no evidence they wanted and could not get.
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Old 07-14-18, 05:56 PM
  #1129  
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Re: You say Gun control i say gun rights let's call the whole thing off discussion

Originally Posted by grundle View Post
OK. That's an answer, sort of. Thanks!



Because it's also a "gun rights" thread.



No, and no.

The very first time I posted the video, I asked:



I posted the video because I was curios to see if anyone would watch it and then answer my question. So far, so one has answered my question. No one has offered any alternative for what a woman should do when someone is physically assaulting her.

It's also why I posted this meme:



I love that meme.



I don't mind a little more paperwork. But I will point out that with computerized background checks, there is no excuse for making applicants wait and wait and wait.
The video you posted did not show the aggressor being armed. Would not pepper spray have been as effective?

You not suggesting guns are the only form of protection available are you? Iím a runner, and there are a whole category of personal protection for runners that donít involve guns (and some that do). So your meme should be sponsored by the NRA but is certainly not the only protection available.

Last edited by Sdallnct; 07-14-18 at 07:04 PM.
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Old 07-14-18, 06:06 PM
  #1130  
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Re: You say Gun control i say gun rights let's call the whole thing off discussion

Originally Posted by JimRochester View Post
Safe Act

Apparently this gentleman decided not to follow the law.

I'm not knocking law enforcement. I am a member of law enforcement. I see firsthand people getting their hands on guns within hours of getting out of jail.

What I am advocating is that the police cannot stop crime from happening. Gun laws cannot keep guns out of the hands of criminals. For someone in the position of an abusive relationship where the person has demonstrated a pattern of abuse, a pattern of getting out of jail and repeating the abuse, a pattern of ignoring orders of protection having a gun for self defense is a right that should have been practiced here. The police report does not mention any reason why any one of them would have been barred from owning.
Ummm...ur not suggesting forcing people to have guns are you? I cannot imagine a situation where I would ever own a gun as a private citizen. I wouldnít put myself in a position of needing one. Or I would remove myself from that situation.

Again we are back to the end. Study after study shows having a gun in the home makes the home more dangerous. That gun could be found by a child or a depressed person realizes their gun is the way out. Or the gun is taken from the owner and used against them.

I have no real issues with a person owning a gun legally and using it legally to defend themselves. My issue is what happens BEFORE the gun is used for self defense.

Last edited by Sdallnct; 07-14-18 at 07:05 PM.
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Old 07-14-18, 07:47 PM
  #1131  
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Re: You say Gun control i say gun rights let's call the whole thing off discussion

Originally Posted by Sdallnct View Post
The video you posted did not show the aggressor being armed. Would not pepper spray have been as effective?

You not suggesting guns are the only form of protection available are you? Iím a runner, and there are a whole category of personal protection for runners that donít involve guns (and some that do). So your meme should be sponsored by the NRA but is certainly not the only protection available.
It will vary by area but many, many of the pepper or OC sprays that are available to the public are a relatively weak spray. Most are only about 50% concentration of law enforcements version. Not that they can't be an irritant in the right situation, but limited. Even for LE, it is considered one of the weakest of the options. It is an excellent way to disperse a crowd though. Also many people are immune to pepper spray, even the strong stuff. African Americans are more likely to be immune than caucasions. In situations that are even slightly breezy, the spray can miss the intended target and can blow right back into the owners face. To get a real good spray, you need to be pretty close. So it forces you to close in on an aggressor instead of allowing a retreat.

OC spray can be effective, but we train with it just like we do any of our weapons. Without it you can spray the person who is trying to help you and now you are alone with the assailant.

Dozens of these on YT of people being sprayed and no effect. Cons, cops and military all train to try and get used to the spray.

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Old 07-14-18, 08:34 PM
  #1132  
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Re: You say Gun control i say gun rights let's call the whole thing off discussion

And to be clear, I think training should be mandatory of any ďweaponĒ of self-defense type item. As well as testing.

Iím sure Pepper Spray is not perfect? Are guns perfect in every situation for every person?

It simply an example of alternative self defense tools. Home evasions are often stopped by alarms, steel doors, automatic lights, dogs, etc
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Old 07-15-18, 01:19 AM
  #1133  
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Re: You say Gun control i say gun rights let's call the whole thing off discussion

Let's give toddlers guns! What could possibly go wrong?

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Old 07-15-18, 07:33 AM
  #1134  
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Re: You say Gun control i say gun rights let's call the whole thing off discussion

Originally Posted by Sdallnct View Post
And to be clear, I think training should be mandatory of any “weapon” of self-defense type item. As well as testing.

I’m sure Pepper Spray is not perfect? Are guns perfect in every situation for every person?

It simply an example of alternative self defense tools. Home evasions are often stopped by alarms, steel doors, automatic lights, dogs, etc
You will never stop a motivated attacker, the idea is to become more trouble than it's worth so they'll look for another opportunity. Most attacks are targets of opportunity. Your example of running. They are most likely looking for an opportune victim. Not you specifically. In that case anything that makes you more trouble than you're worth will help. An attacker, mugger, rapist are looking for someone they can overpower quickly get them on the ground, get them into the bushes out of view, Take what they want and leave. Someone producing a weapon, any weapon, from martial arts striking, to a knife, pepper spray, striking weapon, defensive keychain, etc., can effectively deter a less than motivated attacker. A highly motivated attacker, someone more desperate, someone well armed, someone looking for you specifically will be much harder to deter with less than lethal weapons.

Statistically men are more likely to face multiple attackers and from the front. Women are less likely to face multiple attackers. They are more likely to face a single attacker and be attacked from behind or the side. When facing multiple attackers, they don't just stand around and wait for their turn like in the movies. They'll move in unison. So whatever defensive method you use. Start with the one closest to you, and move to get him between you and the other attackers.

If facing an attacker with any weapon but a gun, distance is your friend. Run at the earliest opportunity. Facing a gun, you have two choices. Run like hell. Possible they won't shoot, or if they do they'll miss. The other is to close the distance to use whatever defensive weapon you choose even if it's your hands and feet.

Any defensive weapon is better than nothing. Any defensive weapon requires practice. Any defensive weapon can be taken and used against the owner. Any and every weapon has advantages and shortcomings. When facing an attacker with a weapon you are always better off with the same or higher level weapon.

Martial arts - Tremendous exercise. always with you, can't be taken away. Takes years of training to be proficient. Some schools because of liability don't do much live fighting or sparring. people can receive black belts with little or no actual fighting against an opponent.

Pepper spray - creates a burning stinging sensation, causes eyes to water and swell shut. Can incapacitate an attacker with little effort. Can hurt like hell and be tough to wash off. Already discussed the drawbacks. Don't use it on a windy day. Only get the kind with a safety cap or I guarantee you'll spray yourself at some point. Good stuff not legal in all jurisdictions

safety keychains - sharp stabbing objects on keychains. Can be effective but will not act as a deterrent since the guy won't know you have it until you start fighting. You have to hope a few pokes with what is basically a pen knife will be enough to put his tail between his legs.

Knife - can possibly be a deterrent. More easily defended unless the user really knows what they are doing. Illegal to carry anything substantial in many areas. Limited to 4" blades which means you are up close and personal.

Gun - best possible visual deterrent. Long or short range weapon. Best against multiple attackers. No less than lethal option. Carrying a gun is not easy. Not allowed in many areas and government buildings.

Improvised weaponry - bottle, stick, rock, pencil, etc. Better than nothing. Start praying the Hail Mary cause you're in trouble.
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Old 07-15-18, 09:10 AM
  #1135  
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Re: You say Gun control i say gun rights let's call the whole thing off discussion

Originally Posted by slop101 View Post
Let's give toddlers guns! What could possibly go wrong?

https://twitter.com/Mikel_Jollett/st...53465070768129
Sorry, the tweet I posed has been since deleted - it was leaked footage from Sasha Baron Cohen's new show with Republicans earnestly arguing for teaching toddlers to use guns.
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Old 07-15-18, 09:39 AM
  #1136  
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Re: You say Gun control i say gun rights let's call the whole thing off discussion

Originally Posted by slop101 View Post
Sorry, the tweet I posed has been since deleted - it was leaked footage from Sasha Baron Cohen's new show with Republicans earnestly arguing for teaching toddlers to use guns.
If you have Showtime, it may be available now On Demand. They aired a sneak preview of the first episode last night. Some of the shit the pro-gun advocates had to say (or agreed with) was just insane.
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Old 07-15-18, 09:54 AM
  #1137  
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Re: You say Gun control i say gun rights let's call the whole thing off discussion

Yeah, it's like an Onion article, only they're being serious...

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Old 07-15-18, 09:56 AM
  #1138  
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Re: You say Gun control i say gun rights let's call the whole thing off discussion

Originally Posted by grundle View Post
I love that meme.
It's too bad that you do, because it's a horrible representation of what happens when an unarmed or armed person gets approached with a gun drawn at them.
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Old 07-15-18, 12:06 PM
  #1139  
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Re: You say Gun control i say gun rights let's call the whole thing off discussion

Originally Posted by gryffinmaster View Post
It's too bad that you do, because it's a horrible representation of what happens when an unarmed or armed person gets approached with a gun drawn at them.
Itís also totally ignoring what happens in the months, years when that gun is sitting around the house not being used used for self defense. But hey, who cares about about toddlers killing themselves or siblings. Who cares if HS kid gets butt hurt over a girl and steals dads gun and shoots up a school...

Itís also ignoring the fact that a gun in the home more dangerous not safer.
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Old 07-16-18, 08:32 PM
  #1140  
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Re: You say Gun control i say gun rights let's call the whole thing off discussion

Originally Posted by Sdallnct View Post
The video you posted did not show the aggressor being armed. Would not pepper spray have been as effective?

You not suggesting guns are the only form of protection available are you? Iím a runner, and there are a whole category of personal protection for runners that donít involve guns (and some that do). So your meme should be sponsored by the NRA but is certainly not the only protection available.

Pepper spray and other methods could have worked too. But this thread is about guns.
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Old 07-16-18, 08:35 PM
  #1141  
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Re: You say Gun control i say gun rights let's call the whole thing off discussion

Don't know how many people saw this or not since I had it in the other thread, and there's no urgent need to look or post there right now (fortunately).

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/QkXeMoBPSDk" frameborder="0" allow="autoplay; encrypted-media" allowfullscreen></iframe>
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Old 07-18-18, 10:04 AM
  #1142  
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Re: You say Gun control i say gun rights let's call the whole thing off discussion

Oh look, another hypocrite...


"EVERYONE SHOULD ABLE TO CARRY A GUN... Except at my concerts and GOP rallies... And gatherings of politicians. But totally have guns in school, church, hospitals, and everywhere else.
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Old 07-20-18, 05:41 PM
  #1143  
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Re: You say Gun control i say gun rights let's call the whole thing off discussion

Originally Posted by slop101 View Post
Oh look, another hypocrite...

https://twitter.com/shannonrwatts/st...76761879703553

"EVERYONE SHOULD ABLE TO CARRY A GUN... Except at my concerts and GOP rallies... And gatherings of politicians. But totally have guns in school, church, hospitals, and everywhere else.

Shame on Ted Nugent for being a pro-gun hypocrite!
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Old 07-20-18, 05:57 PM
  #1144  
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Re: You say Gun control i say gun rights let's call the whole thing off discussion

I'm just the opposite. I feel much safer when my barista is packing heat. You never know when a barista is going to snap when I stumble over my Nitro Foam Cold Brew Cascara with Sweet Cream order.
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Old 07-21-18, 02:36 PM
  #1145  
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Re: You say Gun control i say gun rights let's call the whole thing off discussion

A Florida man fatally shot another over a parking space — and it was legal. Here’s why.

A 47-year-old man who shot and killed someone over a parking space dispute will not face criminal charges, Pinellas County Sheriff Bob Gualtieri announced during a Friday afternoon press conference.

The Thursday afternoon incident falls under Florida’s “Stand Your Ground” law, he said. Investigators say Michael Drejka fatally shot Markeis McGlockton, 28, after he was shoved to the ground. The altercation was captured on video.

“People have a right to stand their grand and they have a right to defend themselves when they believe they’re in harm,” Gualtieri said.

A “pretty significant yelling match” broke out when Drejka arrived at the Circle A Food Store at 1201 Sunset Point Rd. in Clearwater and saw that McGlockton’s girlfriend, 24-year-old Brittany Jacobs, had illegally parked her car in a handicap spot.

“There was no physical violence,” said Gualtieri. “There was no threats, but it was a disturbance that they were yelling at each other and he was complaining about her parking in the handicap spot.”

McGlockton, who was in the store with his 5-year-old son, exited the store, walked to Drejka and pushed him down to the ground. Gualtieri said the push had “great force.”

“McGlockton approached Drejka. He didn’t waste any time getting to him, and then he pushed him, but it isn’t just a push. He really slammed him to the ground,” Gualtieri explained.

Drejka, who is a lawful concealed carry permit holder, then reaches for his gun and points it at McGlockton, who begins to back away from him. Video surveillance captures Drejka firing his pistol and striking McGlockton in the chest.

McGlockton stumbled back into the store where he collapsed, according to a new release. He was pronounced dead at Morton Plant Hospital.

According to Gualtieri, Drejka was cooperative with deputies and told them that he was in fear and believed that he was going to be attacked again by McGlockton.

“He felt after being slammed to the ground that the next thing was that he was going to be further attacked by McGlockton and that he was focused on McGlockton’s lower body, really couldn’t see his hands, but he felt the next thing was that he was gonna be slammed again and that he’d be struck again and he was in fear.”

Gualtieri said the “stand your ground” law is clear and subjective and that this incident “is within the bookends” of the self-defense law, which was recently modified. He explained that the burden of proof for “stand your ground” entitlement used to be on the defendant but now the State Attorney must prove that the shooter is not entitled to a “stand your ground” defense.

The case will be referred to the State Attorney’s Office, Gualtieri noted.

“I’m not saying I agree with the [the law], but I don’t make that call,” said Gualtieri, who added that the roughly four seconds between when Drejka hits the ground and when he fires his weapon gives him pause.

Toward the end of the press conference, Gualtieri said the law has a range and that his department must work with the evidence it has and enforce the law.

“Maybe somebody could make the case that this guy could’ve handled this differently, but that’s why you’ve got a range and you’ve got bookends and you’re going to have things that fall toward one end of the bookend or the other, that aren’t squarely in the middle. I think there’s an argument that this falls toward one side of the bookend, but it doesn’t take it outside the bookend.”

The Pinellas County Sheriff’s Office released video surveillance that captures a fatal Thursday afternoon “stand your ground” shooting at a Clearwater convenience store.
https://www.miamiherald.com/news/sta...215255565.html
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Old 07-21-18, 04:19 PM
  #1146  
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Re: You say Gun control i say gun rights let's call the whole thing off discussion

Yea....people shooting each other over a parking space....nothing to see here
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Old 07-21-18, 04:41 PM
  #1147  
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Re: You say Gun control i say gun rights let's call the whole thing off discussion

Originally Posted by Sdallnct View Post
Yea....people shooting each other over a parking space....nothing to see here
Or people pushing each other to the ground over a parking space.

I've had a hip replacement. I could become seriously hurt hitting the ground. If someone were to push me with the intention of me hitting the ground I would have every right under the law to believe my life or my well-being is in danger.

Even if I was being a douchebag. If someone else escalates the situation beyond the yelling or arguing stage, they become "in the wrong" or the aggressor.

I'm in bar with my wife. I get up to go to the can. You sit down in my seat and start talking to her. I get back and ask for my seat. You say fuck off. Everything up to this point is you. I grab you by the collar and toss you on the ground. I am now in a dominant position with you on the ground demonstrating I am very willing to hurt you. I have now become the aggressor and you have every right to defend yourself.

Then all the internet judge and juries will proclaim what douche you are for fighting over a bar stool.

In it's simplest form yes, it is stupid to argue over a parking spot. It is stupid to die over a parking spot. But the shooter had every right to defend himself once he was on the ground. Some states limit the amount of freedom someone has to be an "asshole" and still defend themselves. They require people to retreat first. Some to the point of leaving their own house. Florida does not.
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Old 07-21-18, 05:14 PM
  #1148  
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Re: You say Gun control i say gun rights let's call the whole thing off discussion

As I understand from the article, McGlockton began backing away when Drejka pulled a gun. In my mind, that's when Drejka became the aggressor.
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Old 07-21-18, 06:52 PM
  #1149  
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Re: You say Gun control i say gun rights let's call the whole thing off discussion

Originally Posted by Breakfast with Girls View Post
As I understand from the article, McGlockton began backing away when Drejka pulled a gun. In my mind, that's when Drejka became the aggressor.
You are correct in that most or at least many instances, when the aggressor breaks off the attack, the defender must also stop doing whatever they are doing. I am not sure if Florida's law specifies that.

"Backing away". Did the guy take a small step back and pause? Or did he take a big or multiple steps and make a distinct sign of breaking off the attack? Did he change his hands from an offensive to a defensive position?Different people will have a different definition of what constituted backing away. The shooters lawyer will want everyone to interpret it from a prone position on the ground, not from a safe distance.

Also experts will be brought in to testify that once fight or flight kicks in, and a victim gets that adrenaline dump, their sense of time is altered, they get tunnel vision, and their ability to interpret subtle movements are greatly hampered. I was once a victim and I can tell you, your vision can be fucked up when that adrenaline hits.
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Old 07-22-18, 12:50 AM
  #1150  
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Re: You say Gun control i say gun rights let's call the whole thing off discussion

This story isn't going away, and I'm sure it's making the NRA very nervous...

The NRA Has Deep Ties to Accused Russian Spy Maria Butina
https://www.motherjones.com/politics...rump-campaign/

Just quoting some of it:
For decades, the National Rifle Association has promoted its hardline politics with appeals to patriotism, freedom, and the staunch defense of the Second Amendment. But now, the controversial gun lobbying group finds itself deeply caught up in a wide-ranging effort to sabotage American democracy by an enemy foreign power.

The pair of Russians spent years building ties with the NRA, as we reported in our recent investigation. And according to a New York Times report this week, the NRA “repeatedly brought Butina from her native Russia to the United States for events until she obtained a student visa in August 2016.”

In December 2015, an NRA delegation including Erickson, Keene, NRA Vice President Pete Brownell, major NRA donor Joe Gregory, and Milwaukee Sheriff David Clarke traveled to Moscow, where they met with Kremlin officials—including Deputy Prime Minister Dmitry Rogozin, one of the first Russians sanctioned by the Obama administration after Putin annexed Crimea in 2014. The delegation dined on lavish meals and visited a Russian gun manufacturer. Butina and Torshin participated in and helped host the gathering.

The NRA has tried to downplay the junket. This May, NRA national spokeswoman Dana Loesch, who speaks directly for the NRA leadership, commented on a story from my colleague David Corn about a Russian sniper rifle that the NRA helped promote by participating in a video recorded at the gun manufacturer during the Moscow trip. Loesch asserted in a tweet that “there was no NRA trip.” But when I raised that exchange again after the news of Butina’s arrest this week, Loesch confirmed the NRA delegation’s visit to Moscow—though she now claimed it was an unofficial one. “I said it wasn’t an official trip,”

Butina and Torshin are both lifetime members of the NRA, according to Torshin

Erickson emailed a high-level Trump campaign official with the message that “Russia is quietly but actively seeking a dialogue.” He noted that the “international reach of the NRA placed me in a position a couple of years ago to slowly begin cultivating a back-channel to President Putin’s Kremlin.”

According to a report earlier this year from McClatchy, the FBI has been investigating whether Torshin illegally funneled money to the Trump campaign through the NRA. (The FBI would “neither confirm nor deny” the investigation to Mother Jones.)

Yet, as the federal government prosecutes an alleged Russian spy whose mission flourished thanks to her deep ties with the NRA, the gun group may no longer be able to so easily declare itself a patriotic defender of America.
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