RoyalTea

Then why has it just been churches that have been burned? Charleston looks like a fairly segregated city (http://demographics.coopercenter.org/DotMap/index.html).

Seems like there should be plenty of secular places a racist could burn down to send a message of hatred and fear.

"That Christian baker can't tell a homosexual to go fuck himself?!?! rabble-rabble-rabble! That Christian baker is being persecuted!"

"That black church has been burned to the ground?" -crickets chirping-

Ky-Fi

If you're talking "war" against Christians in the US today, I'm speaking of an ideological and cultural war. Yes, it would be silly to compare that to the oppression of blacks in US history or Jews in 20th century Europe, and I'm not doing that.

kvrdave

Because of tradition, unfortunately. When you look at what racists burn, it tends to be the churches.

magiccmom

You are the one who brought Europe into this in the first place. Now you don't want it in the conversation. Believe me there is still oppression of blacks and Jews this very moment in time, right here in the good ole' USA. See, you wouldn't know that because you aren't going through life black or Jewish or Gay. You only know your own perspective.

Ky-Fi

I was trying to agree with you.

Josh-da-man

The same religion that tortured heretics and burned witches?

Obviously bullshit.

Ky-Fi

As I said in post #74, I understand the version of history that you believe in.

Artman

Things are maybe 'uncomfortable' for some Christians for the first time in their lives... that might mean people you socialize with will have to change, certain friends or family members pull away, etc. That's unfortunate, but certainly we still have it pretty darn good in this country. Other parts of the world believers are in fear for their lives, being executed, beheaded, church attacks, etc. It's important to maintain perspective... somehow I think I can survive the latest online meme...

Ghostbuster

I would compare the "war on Christianity" to the "war on men." Do Christians and men sometimes experience discrimination in the United States? Yes, they do, and discrimination should be resisted. Of course, people of other faiths and women are more likely to be discriminated against, and the discrimination is more likely to be severe. In short, most people talking about a "war on Christianity" or a "war on men" are making a mountain out of a molehill.

This is a pretty good summary.

When a dominant group loses power and influence, many of its members perceive the change as a threat. Many American Christians are self-admitted chauvinists who believe that Christian viewpoints should be favored throughout society, including by government. These people would not self-apply the term "chauvinist," of course, but they are biased in favor of Christianity and desire special treatment under the law, not equal treatment. (Examples: They want the Bible in public park lodging, but not other religious texts. They want taxpayer dollars to fund vouchers for Christian schools, but not other religious schools. They want Christian monuments on public grounds, but not other religious monuments.)

These American Christians are encountering a couple problems: fair-minded, tolerant voters and impartial, competent judges. Many American Christians will have to learn to live without special treatment from the government. They will have to settle for equal treatment, just like everyone else. When people fight losing battles, they tend to lose! They should reflect, adjust their goals, and move on. Until that recalibration takes place, be prepared for a lot of butthurt.

Artman

The battle's already been won.

DVD Polizei

What's interesting, is while I actually do believe there is active political aggression against those who have particular religious viewpoints, it's somewhat of a tactical payback for Christians who have been continually telling others what they should do with their lives for quite sometime. Cue the idiots in front of abortion clinics.

The Left has simply done a damn good job at collaborating as a single entity, then slamming The Right. It's taken them a while to formulate a battle plan, and I kind of think it just happened by accident, but nonetheless, it happened...and it's working.

I respect that.

The Right bitches and complains about what The Left is doing to them (and now many religious leaders are preaching The End is near with the Same-Sex ruling)...but they don't do anything in response with any amount of coordination, other than whine and complain on Fox News and religious news networks. And then they move onto another topic. I say this with utmost experience. I'm religious to a degree, and I have certain views, but I don't tell people how to live their goddamn lives. That's none of my goddamn business. And who the fuck am I to say what's right and what isn't.

Artman

Agreed, thank God we're not in charge of having to do that...

slop101

This thread is preposterous! And as a rich, white, Christian male, I shit all over it because I can get away with it! Ha!

creekdipper

Just a pragmatic point. Arsonists pick easy targets, and many churches tend to be in rural areas or outskirts where land is more affordable. Also, many smaller churches can't afford or don't need an onsite staff during the week, so the facilities are vacant much of the time. Lots of buildings with small congregations are used primarily for worship services a few times a week (unlike extremely huge churches whose schedules are crammed with various programs every day of the week). In other words, churches are easy targets for thieves, vandals, religion-haters, & racists.

I agree with some of what you say, and your point about some wanting Christian symbols on public lands while disallowing others is an understandable objection. I still am perplexed if you are saying that anyone wanting to see their viewpoints represented in society is a chauvinist (since it seems you're using that as a pejorative) unless you are talking about people should being forced to profess allegiance to those views or only allowing Christian views to be stated or advocated.

As stated previously, anytime anyone votes to express their preferences on a controversial issue (Obamacare, military actions, SSM, abortion, etc.), they are saying they want their view to be imposed throughout society. Other issues may not be so important; i.e., while the voter might prefer a certain action be taken over other options, they're not going to be upset if their view isn't favored (it's not a deal-breaker). Compromises on hugely controversial issues are hard to reach (and, in some cases, nearly impossible), so one viewpoint is always going to be favored...and those who support those views celebrate, do they not?

"Fair-minded, tolerant, and impartial" are very subjective terms. It depends upon whose ox is being gored, IMO.

CRM114

Do I really need to post quote after quote of the founding fathers disputing this nonsense?

Ky-Fi

Not this again. Yes, there were varying degrees of orthodoxy among the founding fathers, and some might better be called deists than Christians.

The founding fathers, however, were not isolated, alien dictators imposing their radical views on an unwilling population. There was a society in place before 1776, and the US was still there long after all those guys died. The society that the United States grew out of, and evolved into, overwhelmingly consisted of practicing Christians. I don't see how this is remotely debatable.

Unless, of course, your logic says: "Christianity teaches its followers to support a totalitarian theocracy, and since the US didn't turn into that---that PROVES that Christianity wasn't the primary ideology of the US!!!"

inri222

You forgot heterosexual.

CRM114

We're not talking about society at large, we're talking about the people who devised and built this democratic government.

Groucho

I thought heterosexuality was outlawed by the supreme court last week?

inri222

That's right, long live incest and bestiality.

CRM114

Yeah, I'm going to procrastinate on this mandatory bro-wife thing for a bit.

wendersfan

Last weekend was Comfest weekend here in Columbus, an annual three-day community festival featuring live music and all sorts of other cool things. This year's Comfest made national news because of this incident:

First-Grader Stands Up to Anti-Homosexual Preacher at Comfest



Which is pretty emblematic of the 'War on Christianity' c. 2015. Basically what happened is some asshole homophobe who happens to be an evangelical Christian used Comfest as an opportunity to yell at thousands of people about their sinful ways. Including, for several minutes, a little girl. Her response was to quietly and with great calm and dignity hold up a pride flag while this guy told her everything that was wrong with the way she was living her life. A six-year-old.

And that sums up Christianity to me - an angry, hate-filled asshole trying to scare a little girl by yelling at her. And the 'War on Christianity' is a little girl, filled with love and compassion, who quietly stands up to Christian hate and abuse.

Ky-Fi

That's a division and distinction that YOU'RE making.

And even with that, did the majority of the founding fathers self-identify as Christian or not?

Ky-Fi

Really? Just a couple weeks after the Charleston church shooting, and the backstories of those victims, and the responses of the survivors? That video really sums up Christianity to you?

wendersfan

Sadly, yes.

Now keep in mind - I'm an American, and as such, I know loads of Christians, and many of them are perfectly nice, wonderful people. But as an institution, Christianity is little more than a vehicle that attempts to scare little girls out of treating people with tolerance and love because those people might be different.