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Re: The One and Only Global Warming Thread, Part 11 (CO2 Kills 10 Billion People Edit
Originally Posted by grundle
(Post 13314322)
Yes, I know. I was responding to comments about the quick death aspect.
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Re: The One and Only Global Warming Thread, Part 11 (CO2 Kills 10 Billion People Edit
Originally Posted by maxfisher
(Post 13314339)
Whose comments?
The two comments that were made immediately before mine.
Originally Posted by SFX
(Post 13313291)
Originally Posted by SFX
(Post 13313295)
Because carbon dioxide is so dangerous.
(normal range in lungs is between 30,000 ppm and 35,000 ppm |
Re: The One and Only Global Warming Thread, Part 11 (CO2 Kills 10 Billion People Edit
The Pareto principle at work:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencete...EN-rivers.html Shocking report reveals that 95% of plastic polluting the world's oceans comes from just TEN rivers including the Ganges and Niger Scientists analysed data on plastic from 79 sampling sites along 57 rivers Their results showed that 10 rivers account for the majority of plastic Eight of these are in Asia, including the Yangtze and Indus rivers Spoiler:
The study follows a recent report that pointed the finger at China, Indonesia, the Philippines, Thailand and Vietnam for spewing out most of the plastic waste that enters the seas. Spoiler:
WHO DUMPS THE MOST PLASTIC? So much plastic is dumped into the sea each year that it would fill five carrier bags for every foot of coastline on the planet, scientists have warned. More than half of the plastic waste that flows into the oceans comes from just five countries: China, Indonesia, Philippines, Vietnam and Sri Lanka. The only industrialized western country on the list of top 20 plastic polluters is the United States at No. 20. The U.S. and Europe are not mismanaging their collected waste, so the plastic trash coming from those countries is due to litter, researchers said. While China is responsible for 2.4 million tons of plastic that makes its way into the ocean, nearly 28 percent of the world total, the United States contributes just 77,000 tons, which is less than one percent, according to the study published in the journal Science. |
Re: The One and Only Global Warming Thread, Part 11 (CO2 Kills 10 Billion People Edit
This illustrates a basic principle of life.It doesn't matter how decent and clean and careful you are with the world, if your neighbors are assholes. And if you can't force them to also be clean and careful with the shared world.
If CO2 is actually a real and present danger, we are completely fucked. It's exactly the same with almost every other pollution issue that damages the planet. |
Re: The One and Only Global Warming Thread, Part 11 (CO2 Kills 10 Billion People Edit
Originally Posted by SFX
(Post 13316249)
This illustrates a basic principle of life.It doesn't matter how decent and clean and careful you are with the world, if your neighbors are assholes. And if you can't force them to also be clean and careful with the shared world.
If CO2 is actually a real and present danger, we are completely fucked. It's exactly the same with almost every other pollution issue that damages the planet. No we're not. The Kuznets curve will save us. Disclaimer: The bolded part was written by me, and I cited sources for my claims: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kuznet..._Kuznets_curve Environmental Kuznets curve https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...nets_Curve.png Environmental Kuznets curve: The application of Kuznets curve in environmental studies The environmental Kuznets curve is a hypothesized relationship between environmental quality and economic development: various indicators of environmental degradation tend to get worse as modern economic growth occurs until average income reaches a certain point over the course of development. Although the subject of continuing debate, some evidence supports the claim that environmental health indicators, such as water and air pollution, show the inverted U-shaped curve. It has been argued that this trend occurs in the level of many of the environmental pollutants, such as sulfur dioxide, nitrogen oxide, lead, DDT, chlorofluorocarbons, sewage, and other chemicals previously released directly into the air or water. For example, between 1970 and 2006, the United States' inflation-adjusted GDP grew by 195%, the number of cars and trucks in the country more than doubled, and the total number of miles driven increased by 178%. However, during that same period regulatory changes meant that annual emissions of carbon monoxide fell from 197 million tons to 89 million, nitrogen oxides emissions fell from 27 million tons to 19 million, sulfur dioxide emissions fell from 31 million tons to 15 million, particulate emissions fell by 80%, and lead emissions fell by more than 98%. However, there is little evidence that the relationship holds true for other pollutants, for natural resource use or for biodiversity conservation. For example, energy, land and resource use (sometimes called the "ecological footprint") do not fall with rising income. While the ratio of energy per real GDP has fallen, total energy use is still rising in most developed countries. Another example is the emission of many greenhouse gases, which is much higher in industrialised countries. In addition, the status of many key "ecosystem services" provided by ecosystems, such as freshwater provision and regulation (Perman, et al., 2003), soil fertility, and fisheries,[citation needed] have continued to decline in developed countries. In general, Kuznets curves have been found for some environmental health concerns (such as air pollution) but not for others (such as landfills and biodiversity). Advocates of the EKC argue that this does not necessarily invalidate the hypothesis – the scale of the Kuznets curves may differ for different environmental impacts and different regions. If the search for scalar and regional effects can salvage the concept, it may yet be the case that a given area will need more wealth in order to see a decline in environmental pollutants. In contrast, a thermodynamically enlightened economics suggests that outputs of degraded matter and energy are an inescapable consequence of any use of matter and energy (so holds the second law); some of those degraded outputs will be noxious wastes, and whether and how their production is eliminated depends more on regulatory schemes and technologies at use than on income or production levels. In one view, then, the EKC suggests that "the solution to pollution is more economic growth;" in the other, pollution is seen as a regrettable output that should be reduced when the benefits brought by its production are exceeded by the costs it imposes in externalities like health decrements and loss of ecosystem services. Deforestation may follow a Kuznets curve (cf. forest transition curve). Among countries with a per capita GDP of at least $4,600, net deforestation has ceased to exist. Yet it has been argued that wealthier countries are able to maintain forests along with high consumption by ‘exporting’ deforestation. It has also been suggested that the Kuznets curve applies to both littering and cigarette smoking. |
Re: The One and Only Global Warming Thread, Part 11 (CO2 Kills 10 Billion People Edit
http://www.santacruzsentinel.com/art...NEWS/180419738
Environmentalists plan logging to restore redwood forests Spoiler:
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Re: The One and Only Global Warming Thread, Part 11 (CO2 Kills 10 Billion People Edit
Originally Posted by grundle
(Post 13316563)
No we're not. The Kuznets curve will save us.
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Re: The One and Only Global Warming Thread, Part 11 (CO2 Kills 10 Billion People Edit
Originally Posted by SFX
(Post 13317261)
I can't tell if you are being satirical or not.
In the future, when we reach some (currently unspecified) level of per capita income, carbon dioxide emissions will peak and start to fall. Just like it did in the past with all those other pollutants. |
Re: The One and Only Global Warming Thread, Part 11 (CO2 Kills 10 Billion People Edit
Originally Posted by grundle
(Post 13318443)
Just like it did in the past with all those other pollutants.
Since plant life evolved in much higher levels of CO2, plants do better with more CO2. Plants are actually growing faster (like trees for example) due to our putting back fossil CO2 into the system. This does not mean raising the atmospheric CO2 levels might not have climate effects, but calling the basis of life on earth pollution is an absurdity. |
Re: The One and Only Global Warming Thread, Part 11 (CO2 Kills 10 Billion People Edit
Originally Posted by SFX
(Post 13318684)
That's incorrect for a multitude of reasons. Most important, CO2 is not and can not be considered pollution. Carbon is the basis of life, and something plants require to live just can't be labeled pollution. It's like calling water pollution. Certainly an excess of water (flooding or extreme precipitation for example) is a real danger, but you can't just start calling water a pollutant.
Since plant life evolved in much higher levels of CO2, plants do better with more CO2. Plants are actually growing faster (like trees for example) due to our putting back fossil CO2 into the system. This does not mean raising the atmospheric CO2 levels might not have climate effects, but calling the basis of life on earth pollution is an absurdity. I agree with you that CO2 is the bottom of the food chain. And here's a post I made in this thread a while ago: https://forum.dvdtalk.com/13114219-post1096.html
Originally Posted by grundle
(Post 13114219)
For the scientifically illiterates out there who don’t know that carbon dioxide is the bottom of the food chain, here is an article form NASA called “Carbon Dioxide Fertilization Greening Earth, Study Finds.”
Also, back when the dinosaurs were alive, atmospheric carbon dioxide levels were five times as high as they are today, and global temperatures were so high that there were no polar ice caps. But the earth was not “uninhabitable.” It was actually the exact opposite, which is why it was home to the biggest land animals that the planet has ever had. That being said, if enough people want to implement policies to reduce CO2 emissions, then it will happen, and it will reduce them, just like with those other things that I bolded in the wikipedia article that I posted. Personally, I don't consider CO2 to be a pollutant. But a lot of other people do, and they are taking steps to reduce emissions. |
Re: The One and Only Global Warming Thread, Part 11 (CO2 Kills 10 Billion People Edit
https://www.westernjournal.com/green...-solar-panels/
Green Activists Now Worried About Mountain of Toxic Waste from Their Solar Panels Spoiler:
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Re: The One and Only Global Warming Thread, Part 11 (CO2 Kills 10 Billion People Edit
I've known that manufacturing processes for solar panels are toxic for forty years. It hasn't been a secret.
Every technology has a cost/benefit analysis. Are the benefits of solar panels greater than their costs? I saw this today. Will using more solar panels slow or reverse this trend? <blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Retweeted NWS Albuquerque (<a href="https://twitter.com/NWSAlbuquerque?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">@NWSAlbuquerque</a>):<br><br>NM's Average summer temperatures (Jun, Jul, Aug) have exhibited a warming trend since records began 122 years ago. <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/nmwx?src=hash&ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#nmwx</a> (Courtesy of the National Centers for Environmental Information: <a href="https://t.co/uJQ7FuF8aX">https://t.co/uJQ7FuF8aX</a>) <a href="https://t.co/digpi9Ceif">pic.twitter.com/digpi9Ceif</a></p>— New Mexico RGIS (@nmrgis) <a href="https://twitter.com/nmrgis/status/1001489714749345793?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">May 29, 2018</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script> https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DeEtlEEVMAAeBZr.jpg |
Re: The One and Only Global Warming Thread, Part 11 (CO2 Kills 10 Billion People Edit
A lot of "recycled" garbage actually ends up in landfills:
Spoiler:
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Re: The One and Only Global Warming Thread, Part 11 (CO2 Kills 10 Billion People Edit
Originally Posted by Nick Danger
(Post 13341372)
I've known that manufacturing processes for solar panels are toxic for forty years. It hasn't been a secret.
Every technology has a cost/benefit analysis. Are the benefits of solar panels greater than their costs? I've known it for a long time too. But apparently, a lot of other people don't. They still insist that it is "clean." |
Re: The One and Only Global Warming Thread, Part 11 (CO2 Kills 10 Billion People Edit
https://climate.nasa.gov/internal_resources/1509/
https://climate.nasa.gov/news/2735/a...HTURvY.twitter I like this image a lot because it clearly shows the trend by color-coding the data and by using enough data points that the outliers aren't a visual distraction. It's an excellent example of a graphic display of information. |
Re: The One and Only Global Warming Thread, Part 11 (CO2 Kills 10 Billion People Edit
I'm really not a fan of Joe Rogan, but this clip is worth posting to show what climate change denialists tend to sound like:
She says (paraphrasing slightly): The weather is different than it was yesterday. Climate changes all the time. Joe makes a fantastic point; as public people, if they do not have a basic understanding of the issue they're discussing, they have some responsibility to just NOT talk about it if all they're going to do is seed unwarranted skepticism to their audience. Saying "I don't believe in climate change" to a big audience is far worse than saying "I don't KNOW enough about the topic to comment on it." She freely admits to Joe that she doesn't know, and that she might answer the topic in a different way in front of a crowd... but she still holds firm that even though she doesn't know, she still doesn't believe it. It's actually kind of fascinating. She even pulls the, "Oh It's a dot COM website? I dunno... maybe if it was dot ORG, I'd believe it more." when he pulls up an article. :lol: |
Re: The One and Only Global Warming Thread, Part 11 (CO2 Kills 10 Billion People Edit
It's like when Trump said no such thing as global warming... "It's called weather, folks"
According to Trump, it's a money making hoax by the Chinese.... |
Re: The One and Only Global Warming Thread, Part 11 (CO2 Kills 10 Billion People Edit
Global warming is real, but it's not as bad as what as what had been predicted:
https://www.wsj.com/articles/thirty-...-up-1529623442 Thirty Years On, How Well Do Global Warming Predictions Stand Up? James Hansen issued dire warnings in the summer of 1988. Today earth is only modestly warmer. June 21, 2018 James E. Hansen wiped sweat from his brow. Outside it was a record-high 98 degrees on June 23, 1988, as the NASA scientist testified before the Senate Committee on Energy and Natural Resources during a prolonged heat wave, which he decided to cast as a climate event of cosmic significance. He expressed to the senators his “high degree of confidence” in “a cause-and-effect relationship between the greenhouse effect and observed warming.” With that testimony and an accompanying paper in the Journal of Geophysical Research, Mr. Hansen lit the bonfire of the greenhouse vanities, igniting a world-wide debate that continues today about the energy structure of the entire planet. President Obama’s environmental policies were predicated on similar models of rapid, high-cost warming. But the 30th anniversary of Mr. Hansen’s predictions affords an opportunity to see how well his forecasts have done—and to reconsider environmental policy accordingly. Mr. Hansen’s testimony described three possible scenarios for the future of carbon dioxide emissions. He called Scenario A “business as usual,” as it maintained the accelerating emissions growth typical of the 1970s and ’80s. This scenario predicted the earth would warm 1 degree Celsius by 2018. Scenario B set emissions lower, rising at the same rate today as in 1988. Mr. Hansen called this outcome the “most plausible,” and predicted it would lead to about 0.7 degree of warming by this year. He added a final projection, Scenario C, which he deemed highly unlikely: constant emissions beginning in 2000. In that forecast, temperatures would rise a few tenths of a degree before flatlining after 2000. Thirty years of data have been collected since Mr. Hansen outlined his scenarios—enough to determine which was closest to reality. And the winner is Scenario C. Global surface temperature has not increased significantly since 2000, discounting the larger-than-usual El Niño of 2015-16. Assessed by Mr. Hansen’s model, surface temperatures are behaving as if we had capped 18 years ago the carbon-dioxide emissions responsible for the enhanced greenhouse effect. But we didn’t. And it isn’t just Mr. Hansen who got it wrong. Models devised by the United Nations Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change have, on average, predicted about twice as much warming as has been observed since global satellite temperature monitoring began 40 years ago. What about Mr. Hansen’s other claims? Outside the warming models, his only explicit claim in the testimony was that the late ’80s and ’90s would see “greater than average warming in the southeast U.S. and the Midwest.” No such spike has been measured in these regions. As observed temperatures diverged over the years from his predictions, Mr. Hansen doubled down. In a 2007 case on auto emissions, he stated in his deposition that most of Greenland’s ice would soon melt, raising sea levels 23 feet over the course of 100 years. Subsequent research published in Nature magazine on the history of Greenland’s ice cap demonstrated this to be impossible. Much of Greenland’s surface melts every summer, meaning rapid melting might reasonably be expected to occur in a dramatically warming world. But not in the one we live in. The Nature study found only modest ice loss after 6,000 years of much warmer temperatures than human activity could ever sustain. Several more of Mr. Hansen’s predictions can now be judged by history. Have hurricanes gotten stronger, as Mr. Hansen predicted in a 2016 study? No. Satellite data from 1970 onward shows no evidence of this in relation to global surface temperature. Have storms caused increasing amounts of damage in the U.S.? Data from the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration show no such increase in damage, measured as a percentage of gross domestic product. How about stronger tornadoes? The opposite may be true, as NOAA data offers some evidence of a decline. The list of what didn’t happen is long and tedious. The problem with Mr. Hansen’s models—and the U.N.’s—is that they don’t consider more-precise measures of how aerosol emissions counter warming caused by greenhouse gases. Several newer climate models account for this trend and routinely project about half the warming predicted by U.N. models, placing their numbers much closer to observed temperatures. The most recent of these was published in April by Nic Lewis and Judith Curry in the Journal of Climate, a reliably mainstream journal. These corrected climate predictions raise a crucial question: Why should people world-wide pay drastic costs to cut emissions when the global temperature is acting as if those cuts have already been made? On the 30th anniversary of Mr. Hansen’s galvanizing testimony, it’s time to acknowledge that the rapid warming he predicted isn’t happening. Climate researchers and policy makers should adopt the more modest forecasts that are consistent with observed temperatures. That would be a lukewarm policy, consistent with a lukewarming planet. |
Re: The One and Only Global Warming Thread, Part 11 (CO2 Kills 10 Billion People Edit
Came across this article, not sure if it was posted before by Grundle. It's not denying climate change, but it is stating the obvious that plants love CO2.
The world is getting greener. Why does no one want to know? So far, the benefits of global greening have been greater than expected, while the costs of global warming have been smaller than expected and the price of reducing carbon dioxide emissions has been higher than expected. That price is falling more heavily on poor than on rich people. The evidence suggests that this imbalance will persist for most of this century, perhaps longer. It is time for a rethink. |
Re: The One and Only Global Warming Thread, Part 11 (CO2 Kills 10 Billion People Edit
Originally Posted by PerryD
(Post 13357692)
Came across this article, not sure if it was posted before by Grundle. It's not denying climate change, but it is stating the obvious that plants love CO2.
The world is getting greener. Why does no one want to know? So far, the benefits of global greening have been greater than expected, while the costs of global warming have been smaller than expected and the price of reducing carbon dioxide emissions has been higher than expected. That price is falling more heavily on poor than on rich people. The evidence suggests that this imbalance will persist for most of this century, perhaps longer. It is time for a rethink. https://forum.dvdtalk.com/religion-p...l#post13114219
Originally Posted by grundle
(Post 13114219)
On July 9, 2017, New York Magazine published this article, which is called, “The Uninhabitable Earth.”
Five Days later, the magazine said the article "… is already the most-read article in New York Magazine’s history.” However, I would like to remind everyone of the following bogus doomsayer predictions that were made during the first Earth Day in 1970: * Denis Hayes, the chief organizer for the first Earth Day, wrote, “It is already too late to avoid mass starvation.” * Senator Gaylord Nelson, the founder of Earth Day, stated, “Dr. S. Dillon Ripley, secretary of the Smithsonian Institute, believes that in 25 years, somewhere between 75 and 80 percent of all the species of living animals will be extinct.” * Peter Gunter, a professor at North Texas State University, stated, “… by 1975 widespread famines will begin in India; these will spread by 1990 to include all of India, Pakistan, China and the Near East, Africa. By the year 2000, or conceivably sooner, South and Central America will exist under famine conditions… By the year 2000, thirty years from now, the entire world, with the exception of Western Europe, North America, and Australia, will be in famine.” * Paul Ehrlich, author of The Population Bomb, predicted that between 1980 and 1989, 4 billion people, including 65 million Americans, would starve to death. * Life Magazine wrote, “… by 1985 air pollution will have reduced the amount of sunlight reaching earth by one half.” * Ecologist Kenneth Watt stated, “The world has been chilling sharply for about twenty years. If present trends continue, the world will be about four degrees colder for the global mean temperature in 1990, but eleven degrees colder in the year 2000. This is about twice what it would take to put us into an ice age.” * Watt also stated, “By the year 2000, if present trends continue, we will be using up crude oil at such a rate…that there won’t be any more crude oil.” Source: http://www.reason.com/news/show/27702.html However, the environmental doomsayers who have been making these bogus predictions for many decades have expressed absolutely zero interest in learning why these predictions of the past failed to come true. Instead, these doomsayers pretend that these failed predictions were never made, in the hopes that their current audience has either forgotten about them, or was never even aware of them in the first place. Whatever happened to the scientific method? Whatever happened to a willingness to admit to being wrong? Whatever happened to the desire to learn from one’s mistakes, as well as from the mistakes of others? For the scientifically illiterates out there who don’t know that carbon dioxide is the bottom of the food chain, here is an article form NASA called “Carbon Dioxide Fertilization Greening Earth, Study Finds.” Also, back when the dinosaurs were alive, atmospheric carbon dioxide levels were five times as high as they are today, and global temperatures were so high that there were no polar ice caps. But the earth was not “uninhabitable.” It was actually the exact opposite, which is why it was home to the biggest land animals that the planet has ever had. As to the question of why this isn't being talked about more: The doomsayers who only care about making one bogus prediction after another certainly aren't bringing it up. But the people who care about the truth are bringing it up. The problem is that the mainstream environmental movement falls far more often into the former group, and far less often into the latter group. |
Re: The One and Only Global Warming Thread, Part 11 (CO2 Kills 10 Billion People Edit
I just found out about a new TV show on Netflix called "Occupied."
Spoilerized for actual spoilers. Spoiler:
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Re: The One and Only Global Warming Thread, Part 11 (CO2 Kills 10 Billion People Edit
I don't believe in this shit, How global warming can kill people when Globally people are killing each other by the name of religion and ruining the climate by bombarding etc. By the way, I also don't believe in the story they posted about this Australian scientist.
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Re: The One and Only Global Warming Thread, Part 11 (CO2 Kills 10 Billion People Edit
Wow! I'm really surprised that a publication as mainstream as the Los Angeles Times would publish something like this. It's usually just my unreliable sources that are this critical of recycling.
http://www.latimes.com/politics/la-p...09-story.html# Environmentally minded Californians love to recycle — but it's no longer doing any good July 9, 2018 Californians dutifully load up their recycling bins and feel good about themselves. They’re helping the environment and being good citizens. But their glow might turn to gloom if they realized that much of the stuff is headed to a landfill. Spoiler:
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Re: The One and Only Global Warming Thread, Part 11 (CO2 Kills 10 Billion People Edit
Glacier half the size of Manhattan breaks off Greenland
http://www.cbc.ca/news/technology/gr...ving-1.4742691 How's that rising sea level coming along? |
Re: The One and Only Global Warming Thread, Part 11 (CO2 Kills 10 Billion People Edit
Originally Posted by cultshock
(Post 13370571)
Glacier half the size of Manhattan breaks off Greenland
http://www.cbc.ca/news/technology/gr...ving-1.4742691 How's that rising sea level coming along? Although your question seems like it may be rhetorical, here's an actual answer from a highly reliable source: https://www.nationalgeographic.com/e...ea-level-rise/ January 13, 2017 Core samples, tide gauge readings, and, most recently, satellite measurements tell us that over the past century, the Global Mean Sea Level (GMSL) has risen by 4 to 8 inches (10 to 20 centimeters). However, the annual rate of rise over the past 20 years has been 0.13 inches (3.2 millimeters) a year, roughly twice the average speed of the preceding 80 years. |
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