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Roll Back the Reformation - 475 Years later

Old 10-21-09, 10:24 AM
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Roll Back the Reformation - 475 Years later

http://www.theatlanticwire.com/opini...475-Years-1348

http://www.csmonitor.com/2009/1020/p06s14-woeu.html

Vatican welcome to Anglicans boldest move since Reformation
The Vatican on Tuesday opened the way for Anglican communities to switch allegiance en masse. Hundreds of thousands of Anglicans angry over the church's liberal stance on women and gays may convert.
By Nick Squires | Correspondent of The Christian Science Monitor

from the October 20, 2009 edition
Vatican City - The Vatican launched an historic initiative Tuesday to make it easier for disgruntled Anglicans worldwide to join the Roman Catholic Church. The church said the move was not a swipe at the Anglicans but it could nevertheless result in hundreds of thousands of churchgoers unhappy with openly gay and female clerics defecting to Rome.

Pope Benedict XVI gave his approval to a new framework to bring back into the fold Anglicans who oppose their church's liberal stance on gay marriage and the ordination of women priests and gay bishops while allowing them to retain some of their separate religious traditions.

The move comes nearly 500 years after Henry VIII's desire for a divorce led him to break with Rome and proclaim himself as the head of the newly formed Church of England in 1534. The framework is the Vatican's most sweeping gesture toward any schismatic church since the Protestant Reformation in the 16th century and the Thirty Years' War that followed it in the 17th century. That war ended with the Peace of Westphalia in 1648, which acknowledged the right of monarchs rather than the Vatican to determine their national faiths, prompting Pope Innocent X to declare the document "null, void, invalid, iniquitous, unjust, damnable, reprobate, inane, empty of meaning and effect for all time."

Over the centuries, relations between the various Christian faiths have improved and both Anglican and Catholic leaders were at pains on Tuesday to say that warming relations between the two churches will not be affected by the new plan. But both churches have been struggling to retain adherents in recent years, particularly in the developed world, with poorer countries their only growth spots.

Individual Anglicans have long been free to convert to Catholicism, as former British prime minister Tony Blair did after leaving office in 2007. But the so-called Apostolic Constitution will enable entire Anglican communities to transfer their allegiance en masse.

The pope was responding to "numerous requests to the Holy See from groups of Anglican clergy and faithful in various parts of the world who want to enter into full and visible communion" with the Catholic Church, Cardinal William Joseph Levada told a news conference. He is the American head of the Vatican's doctrinal body.

Vatican officials declined to say how many of the world's 77 million Anglicans might take the opportunity to convert to Catholicism.

Anglican conservatives

The Traditional Anglican Communion, a vocal group of 400,000 conservatives who split from the Anglican Communion in 1991, are expected to move towards Rome.

"We have had requests from large groups, in the hundreds," said Cardinal Levada. "If I had to say a number of bishops, I would say it's in the twenties or thirties."

His American colleague, Archbishop Joseph Di Noia, Secretary of the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments, said after the press conference that he believed the number of bishops ready to convert was closer to 50.

They would come from the United States, Australia, and the island nations of the Pacific, he said.

Cardinal Levada was asked whether the Vatican's new policy weakened the Anglican Church's standing.

"I would not dare to make a comment on that. After the long years of the British Empire, and the work of Anglican missionaries, the Anglican Communion is a diverse and very varied worldwide communion."

Under the new constitution, married Anglican priests will be allowed to enter the Catholic Church but will not be ordained as bishops.

Will African Anglicans move?

The initiative was in response to years of lobbying by Anglicans who had become disenchanted with Anglican liberalism, a dissatisfaction which reached a crisis point in 2004 when the Episcopal Church in the United States ordained the first openly gay bishop, Gene Robinson of New Hampshire.

That move and other liberal shifts, such as a Canadian diocese's willingness to bless same-sex unions, have been fiercely opposed by more conservative Anglicans, particularly in Africa.

The new framework was announced simultaneously in Rome and in London, where the head of the Church of England, Archbishop of Canterbury Rowan Williams, said he did not see the Vatican move as "an act of aggression." (Read a Monitor profile of the archbishop here.)

Neither was it a vote of no confidence in the Anglican Church, he said, but a sign of maturity and understanding between the two faiths.

But Vatican commentators described it as a blow to the Anglican Communion. "For people who harbor the vision of Anglican unity, this will be a great disappointment," said Vatican analyst Francis X Rocca, of the Religion News Service.

"But it may also help to let off steam within the Anglican Church. If disaffected traditionalists leave, then they will lower the tensions over issues like gay marriage and women clergy."

Vatican expert John Allen of the National Catholic Reporter wrote in a blog post that while the opening by the Vatican had long been rumored, some Catholics feared "potentially negative repercussions in relations with the Anglican Communion – whose leadership might see it as 'poaching.'"

Why did a quarter of Anglican bishops boycott the church's summit last year?
Catholics Embrace Anglicans After 475 Years
More
By Benjamin F. Carlson on October 20, 2009 3:58pm
Catholics Embrace Anglicans After 475 Years ANDREAS SOLARO/AFP/Getty Images Bridging a 475-year-old rift dating back to King Henry VIII's split with Rome, Pope Benedict XVI has made the historic decision to allow disaffected members of the Anglican communion to join the Catholic church. Converts would be allowed to keep many of their distinctive traditions. This has been called the "most sweeping gesture" the Vatican has made toward any schismatic church since the Reformation.

What does this mean? The 77-million member Anglican communion has been riven by conflict over ordaining women and gay clergy in recent years. The pope's decision could allow entire communities to leave the church, unraveling the attempts of Rowan Williams, Archbishop of Canterbury, to heal divisions. The biggest reactions are from England, where many writers are asking whether this will result in an exodus of Anglicans, and pondering how it could change the Catholic Church.

* High Growth African Congregations May Split writes Nick Squires in the Christian Science Monitor. "The initiative was in response to years of lobbying by Anglicans who had become disenchanted with Anglican liberalism, a dissatisfaction which reached a crisis point in 2004 when the Episcopal Church in the United States ordained the first openly gay bishop, Gene Robinson of New Hampshire."

* Archbishop Was Forced to Grin and Bear It, writes Ian Murray at National Review. "It may mean that the current Archbishop of Canterbury, has, in his desire to please everyone, presided over a schism that could prove fatal to his Church...There are signs, for instance, that His Grace had his arm twisted by the (Catholic) Archbishop of Westminster in their making a joint announcement."

* Anglican Churches Will Slide Into Irrelevance, says Scott Richert at About.com's Catholic Blog. Richert gives a Catholic perspective, saying the Anglican church's embrace of liberal reforms is to blame. "A few observations: By endorsing this statement, especially the first paragraph ('accept the Petrine [[TCeez - 'of Peter', meaning Papal]] ministry as willed by Christ for his Church'), the archbishop of Canterbury has essentially signaled that the game is over. Those in the Anglican Communion who truly believe that the Church is meant to be one, and to have one visible head, now have no excuse not to return to Rome...Parts of the Anglican Communion will now enter into full communion with the Catholic Church, and the rest will see its long, slow slide into irrelevance pick up pace."

* An Assertive Decree in the Interest of Worshipers, writes the editorial board of the Telegraph (UK). "The Pope's proposed high Anglican enclave within the Roman Catholic church offers a half-way home to those who will never be reconciled to the liberal reforms in the Anglican Communion - which might now avoid the schismatic clash that for so long has seemed inevitable over the ordination of women bishops. If that is now a less problematic issue for the Church of England, then Dr Williams may yet have cause to thank the Pope, even if he presently feels deeply aggrieved at the peremptory manner of this decree."

* Solution to Catholic Clergy Problems, writes Andrew Brown at the Guardian. "For a start, this establishes a tradition of married Roman Catholic clergy in the west. The language, the services, and the gorgeous choral music of Anglicanism are more obviously attractive, but the real long term significance of this announcement is the talk about seminaries. Those who leave now will not be the last Anglican Catholics...If the former Anglicans can train up successors who will also be able to have wives, the Roman Catholic church may have found a way to escape the prospect of a largely gay priesthood to which the doctrine of compulsory celibacy appeared to condemn them. It is ironic that Anglican efforts to deal honestly with the problem of sexuality should have provided the Catholics with the excuse they needed to strike this decisive blow. God always did move in mysterious ways."

This is basically the death knell for priestly celibacy. Lifelong Catholics can join the Anglican wing of the Church, marry, and still preside over Catholic mass.

My favorite part of being raised Catholic is the knowledge that the Papacy is the longest running institution on earth essentially the continuation of the Western Roman Emperors. Even in our modern instant gratification 24 hour news cycle you can watch an event play out that is basically Benedict XVI continuing maneuvers that spanned 46 Popes and 475 years.

Last edited by Tommy Ceez; 10-21-09 at 10:41 AM.
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Old 10-21-09, 11:05 AM
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Re: Roll Back the Reformation - 475 Years later

"Don't like churches that condone relationships between consenting adults? Come to the Catholic Church, where we condone child molestation ..."

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Old 10-21-09, 01:14 PM
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Re: Roll Back the Reformation - 475 Years later

So .... to sum up the Vatican's thinking ...... you don't have to believe what we believe, simply hate the same people we hate. WELCOME!
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Old 10-21-09, 02:16 PM
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Re: Roll Back the Reformation - 475 Years later

Will this pave the road to married priests, or is it paving the way to end married clergy in the former Anglican churches?
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Old 10-21-09, 03:57 PM
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Re: Roll Back the Reformation - 475 Years later

Originally Posted by marty888 View Post
So .... to sum up the Vatican's thinking ...... you don't have to believe what we believe, simply hate the same people we hate. WELCOME!
What different beliefs are there. The major problem the rest of the reformation had with the CoE is that they made almost no doctrinal changes to the Catholic church and just splintered for political reasons.

Plus there is no hatred for gays or women. The idea that women cannot be priests is a seperation of duties issue, and the position on gays, while considering it a sin, is far from hatred. Hell, if given the choice between the world turning Catholic or Born Again, Catholic is the far better option.

Originally Posted by spainlinx0 View Post
Will this pave the road to married priests, or is it paving the way to end married clergy in the former Anglican churches?
Married priests
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Old 10-21-09, 04:10 PM
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Re: Roll Back the Reformation - 475 Years later

The Anglican Church has always been pretty close to the Catholic Church doctrinally like Tommy said.

I'd disagree about the Catholic over "Born Again" though
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Old 10-21-09, 04:11 PM
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Re: Roll Back the Reformation - 475 Years later

Originally Posted by Tommy Ceez View Post
Plus there is no hatred for gays or women. The idea that women cannot be priests is a seperation of duties issue, and the position on gays, while considering it a sin, is far from hatred. Hell, if given the choice between the world turning Catholic or Born Again, Catholic is the far better option.


Behold the power of "give me a child until he is seven."
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Old 10-21-09, 04:17 PM
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Re: Roll Back the Reformation - 475 Years later

This will do nothing about priests being able to marry. Little known to the masses, but there have been married priests for some time, and it has not lead the Catholic church to change its mind about the others. They, also, all came in already married, just as the Anglicans would.

I find this to be pretty much nothing. No change, nothing to see here.
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Old 10-21-09, 04:31 PM
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Re: Roll Back the Reformation - 475 Years later

Originally Posted by Vibiana View Post


Behold the power of "give me a child until he is seven."
I enjoy your vast knowledge on the subject

Vatican reasserts support for decriminalising homosexuality
By: Dan Bergin
Posted: Monday, December 15, 2008 4:46 pm
Email Print
The Vatican confirmed on Thursday that Catholic Church does not oppose efforts to decriminalize homosexuality, although it has raised objections to a UN declaration on gay rights.

The Vatican's chief press office Father Federico Lombardi said on Thursday that the Vatican was "totally opposed" to any penal code that criminalised homosexuals.

Fr Lombardi said: "It is a position that respects the rights of the human person, in his dignity." Speaking during the Lombardi said during the presentation of the papal message for the World Day of Peace, Fr Lombardi also stated the Church's opposition to "any unjust discrimination on the basis of homosexuality."

His comments came in response to a wave of protests by gay rights campaigners over the Holy See's opposition to a UN proposal condemning "discrimination based on sexual orientation and gender identity."

The non-binding resolution, backed by the European Union, calls on governments worldwide to decriminalize homosexuality. France, which put forth the initiative on Human Rights Day, is expected to submit a draft of the proposal at the UN General Assembly next week.

Controversy erupted over the issue after Archbishop Celestino Migliore, the Vatican's envoy to the United Nations, told a French Catholic newspaper that the Vatican opposed the proposal, saying it would "add new categories of those protected from discrimination" and could "create new and implacable discriminations."

States which do not allow homosexuals to marry will be "pilloried" to recognize same-sex marriage and "made an object of pressure," Migliore said.

Under the proposed declaration, nations that "do not put every sexual orientation on exactly the same level can be considered contrary to the
respect of human rights," Lombardi had earlier explained.

The Vatican position prompted demonstrations by gay rights activists, including a protest inside the Vatican last weekend. The protesters hung nooses around their necks as they accused the Church of being an "accomplice in the martyrdom" of homosexuals.

Faith leaders belonging to a US coalition of gay rights groups issued a statement last Wednesday, saying: "By refusing to sign a basic statement opposing inhumane treatment of LGBT people, the Vatican is sending a message that violence and human rights abuses against LGBT people are acceptable.

"Most Catholics, and indeed most Catholic teachings, tell us that all people are entitled to live with basic human dignity without the threat of violence."

The statement also called on the United States to back the proposed initiative, stating that "in more than 70 countries people can be imprisoned for homosexuality and in several countries same gender love is a crime punishable by death."

Father Lombardi explained on Thursday that while the Holy See opposes "legislation that penalizes homosexuality," the Church still disagrees with any
initiatives that are aimed at "putting all forms of sexual orientation on the same level."

"The Church sustains that marriage is between one man and one woman and it does not accept that unions of persons of the same sex are placed at the same level, " he concluded.
"The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. They do not choose their homosexual condition; for most of them it is a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. The persons are called to fulfill God's will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord's cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition" (CCC 2358).

While they may not choose their desires, homosexuals do have the ability to choose whether they act on those desires, just as an alcholic has the choice of whether to act on his desire to get drunk and just as a heterosexual has the choice of acting on his desires. For this reason, the Catechism states, "Basing itself on Sacred Scripture, which presents homosexual acts as acts of grave depravity, traditions has always declared that homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered. They are contrary to natural law . . . . Under no circumstances can they be approved . . . . Homosexual persons are called to chastity. By the virtues of self-mastery that teach them inner freedom, at times by the support of disinterested friendship, by prayer and sacramental grace, they can and should gradually and resolutely approach Christian perfection" (CCC 2357, 2359).

Regarding God's involvement in the origin of homosexuality: He is not the source of such temptations, just as he is not the source of temptation in general: "Let no one say when he is tempted, 'I am tempted by God'; for God cannot be tempted with evil and he himself tempts no one" (Jas. 1:13). Adam is the source of the temptations we feel. It is because of his sin that we have inherited a corrupt nature (Rom. 5:19).
In orther words, you have no idea what your talking about.

Last edited by Tommy Ceez; 10-21-09 at 04:44 PM.
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Old 10-21-09, 04:31 PM
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Re: Roll Back the Reformation - 475 Years later

Originally Posted by kvrdave View Post
This will do nothing about priests being able to marry. Little known to the masses, but there have been married priests for some time, and it has not lead the Catholic church to change its mind about the others. They, also, all came in already married, just as the Anglicans would.

I find this to be pretty much nothing. No change, nothing to see here.
I thought this Pope was all about bringing back the old school. That's why I questioned whether this meant anything.
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Old 10-21-09, 04:43 PM
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Re: Roll Back the Reformation - 475 Years later

Originally Posted by kvrdave View Post
This will do nothing about priests being able to marry. Little known to the masses, but there have been married priests for some time, and it has not lead the Catholic church to change its mind about the others. They, also, all came in already married, just as the Anglicans would.

I find this to be pretty much nothing. No change, nothing to see here.
What you are referring to is completely different.

Protestant priests who wanted to convert were given a special dispensation to convert and remain with their families.

This is a framework for ENTIRE groups of Anglicans to convert en masse, including the ability for SEMINARIES and PARISHES to switch and retain some traditions.

With the Protestants, they moved INDIVIDUALS, with the Anglicans they will take the STRUCTURE of Anglican parishes and move them under the tent, that structure includes the training of new priests.
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Old 10-21-09, 05:22 PM
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Re: Roll Back the Reformation - 475 Years later

Not completely different, just on a larger scale. Will not change.
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Old 10-21-09, 06:07 PM
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Re: Roll Back the Reformation - 475 Years later

Seems like this a Hail Mary pass from a moribund institution desperate to rebuild its membership.
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Old 10-21-09, 06:55 PM
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Re: Roll Back the Reformation - 475 Years later

Originally Posted by Josh-da-man View Post
Seems like this a Hail Mary pass from a moribund institution desperate to rebuild its membership.
Which, they still can't see how far allowing priests to marry would go in that regard.

I mean, who do you want teaching you how to apply scripture to your life?

~a celebate man who's never had a wife or children

~or one who can take scripture and apply it more personally because he has experienced marriage and offspring

Personally, the 75+ yr old man preaching about family just comes across as boring because all he knows is from the venting from someone who came to him for advice
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Old 10-21-09, 07:16 PM
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Re: Roll Back the Reformation - 475 Years later

"I think you're an over-educated 27-year-old virgin who likes to hold the hands of superstitious old ladies and promise them everlasting life."
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Old 10-21-09, 07:20 PM
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Re: Roll Back the Reformation - 475 Years later

Originally Posted by Tommy Ceez View Post
I enjoy your vast knowledge on the subject
In orther words, you have no idea what your talking about.
I've been down that road with her before
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Old 10-21-09, 07:24 PM
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Re: Roll Back the Reformation - 475 Years later

Originally Posted by Tommy Ceez View Post
I enjoy your vast knowledge on the subject

In orther words, you have no idea what your talking about.
That's exactly how I feel about you. Isn't diversity fun?
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Old 10-21-09, 07:28 PM
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Re: Roll Back the Reformation - 475 Years later

Originally Posted by Tommy Ceez View Post
This is basically the death knell for priestly celibacy.
I hope so, but I won't hold my breath. I wonder if this will have any effect on Episcopalians in the US.
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Old 10-21-09, 08:00 PM
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Re: Roll Back the Reformation - 475 Years later

Originally Posted by Dr Mabuse View Post
"I think you're an over-educated 27-year-old virgin who likes to hold the hands of superstitious old ladies and promise them everlasting life."
Is that from The Mentalist? Sounds like something Jane would say.
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Old 10-21-09, 08:15 PM
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Re: Roll Back the Reformation - 475 Years later

Originally Posted by kvrdave View Post
Is that from The Mentalist? Sounds like something Jane would say.


Walt said that.

Father Janovich: [eulogizing Walt] Walt Kowalski once said to me that I knew nothing about life or death, because I was an over-educated, 27-year-old virgin who held the hand of superstitious old women and promised them eternity.
[the congregation chuckles politely and somberly]
Father Janovich: Walt definitely had no problem calling it like he saw it. But he was right. I knew really nothing about life or death, until I got to know Walt... and boy, did I learn.
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Old 10-21-09, 08:18 PM
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Re: Roll Back the Reformation - 475 Years later

Excellent. I knew I had heard it and just couldn't remember where.
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Old 10-22-09, 10:21 PM
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Re: Roll Back the Reformation - 475 Years later

This is an interesting move by the Vatican and I'm happy to see JPII style outreach occurring. I was always ecstatic to see his messages to the Eastern church.

I don't think this will have any impact though on the policies allowing priests to marry.
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Old 10-22-09, 10:53 PM
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Re: Roll Back the Reformation - 475 Years later

Pfft! Like Anglicans are real Protestants.
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Old 10-23-09, 10:37 AM
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Re: Roll Back the Reformation - 475 Years later

Originally Posted by Rockmjd23 View Post
I don't think so either. It is surprising how ecumenical the pope has been but of course he usually follows it up by pissing off the the muslims or jews.
He really does. He seems to lack some of that feel of openness JPII had - then again he also seems like he might be more aggressive in implementing things. We shall see I guess. I do though miss JPII's way of doing things.

Has Pope Benedict XVI done anything else with the Eastern church or did that kind of fade with JPII?
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Old 10-24-09, 02:36 AM
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Re: Roll Back the Reformation - 475 Years later

Originally Posted by Rockmjd23 View Post
The Pope has been more open to meeting with Orthodox Church leaders than vice versa, imo.
I know talks and discussions haven't really went anywhere (at least when last i heard). It will be interesting to follow and is a pet interest of mine. The Byzantine Rite has always fascinated me and i wish it was celebrated somewhere closer to me.
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