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Jimmy Carter Is An Idiot (racism discussion)

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Jimmy Carter Is An Idiot (racism discussion)

Old 09-21-09, 08:08 AM
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Re: Jimmy Carter Is An Idiot (racism discussion)

Looks like Carter isn't the only one playing the race card

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MICHAEL STEELE: I--I--I found that to be stunning that the White House would send word to one of only two black governors in the country not to run for re-election. And it just raised a curious point for me. I think Paterson--Governor Paterson's numbers are about the same as Governor Corzine's numbers, yet the President was with Governor Corzine, and I don't know if there's been a request made of Governor Corzine to step down in New Jersey. So I--I just find it to be stunning and also rather bold.
Old 09-21-09, 06:47 PM
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Re: Jimmy Carter Is An Idiot (racism discussion)

Originally Posted by classicman2 View Post
There were a bunch of conservatives pissed-off at Bush over his position on immigration. They weren't all that fond of McCain either.
Actually, they were only upset because they were white.
Old 09-21-09, 07:09 PM
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Re: Jimmy Carter Is An Idiot (racism discussion)

Originally Posted by Dimension X View Post
A few of those states approaching 10% have no state income tax (they make up for it with higher sales taxes). And, as I said before, those higher rates are mostly in large cities, they are not statewide.
There's no argument from me that one pays higher taxes in Canada than in the States. That is well-known. My dispute is with the contention that the variance is all that significant (but "significant" is itself defined differently by different people), and I already posted my thoughts on why people might find paying somewhat higher taxes to their benefit (in short, because they end up with more and better services (no-questions-asked healthcare alone is a huge asset, something you don't know unless you have experienced it), a sound safety net for the disadvantaged and those who fall onto hard times (which could happen to anyone), and better living conditions).
How does each country define poverty?
Something along the lines of comparing median incomes with cost-of-living indexes would make a lot of sense. Percentage of income that goes toward housing is often used as a figure for determination. But again, there's no consistency in the data, so I can't adduce definitive proof.
What crimes are (and aren't) included in calculating their crime rates?
You're correct in that clarity in how to calculate total crime is missing. Canada has an over-complicated dispersion of crimes into sub-categories, whereas the U.S. keeps its stats fairly simple. Both use the universal offenses-per-100,000-people stat. The only hard comparative facts I could glean from the Wikipedia postings were that Canada's national homicide rate in 2006 was 1.9. The U.S. rate for 2004 was 5.5. European countries are generally deemed safer than those on this side of the pond, while Canada is clearly regarded as safer than the U.S.
Nationmaster has a total-crimes-per-capita chart, but it is totally preposterous to my mind, with notoriously crime-ridden places like Mexico, Jamaica, and Colombia way down on the list. The list is not even worth humouring.
How do they calculate life expectancy (used in determining the HDI)?
I guess it's not an average age of all deceased, as I expected, but a more complex calculus: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Life_expectancy
As you said, it's "completely subjective."
Sorry, it appears I espoused a blatant contradiction. Instead of writing "completely subjective", I should have scrapped "objectivity" part and written something along the lines of, "It's a decision based on priorities and preferences".
Old 09-21-09, 07:50 PM
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Re: Jimmy Carter Is An Idiot (racism discussion)

Originally Posted by Red Dog View Post
I disagree. I think most were pissed that he was a big spender. The problem is that the other option to them is worse.
Red Dog hit the nail on the head. I dont like Republicans, but I hate the Democrats.

Besides there are many reasons one is affiliated with a certain party. I can tell you there are lots of people labled as evangelicals who would love government run health care or whatever the welfare flavor of the day is because they primarily vote Republican because of social issues.

Last edited by BKenn01; 09-21-09 at 07:52 PM.
Old 09-21-09, 10:13 PM
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Re: Jimmy Carter Is An Idiot (racism discussion)

Originally Posted by Norm de Plume View Post
There's no argument from me that one pays higher taxes in Canada than in the States. That is well-known. My dispute is with the contention that the variance is all that significant (but "significant" is itself defined differently by different people), and I already posted my thoughts on why people might find paying somewhat higher taxes to their benefit (in short, because they end up with more and better services (no-questions-asked healthcare alone is a huge asset, something you don't know unless you have experienced it), a sound safety net for the disadvantaged and those who fall onto hard times (which could happen to anyone), and better living conditions).
Here is the problem as I see it. We don't trust our government to make the services better, especially based on the amount that it will cost. If you look at our country's history with big social programs, they all cost more than they said they would and they are all a huge drain on the national debt/deficit. Additionally, we know that Obama is lying about this being budget neutral (or he won't sign it ) The only way that works is to raise taxes on the middle class, which he claimed he won't do (and is a future lie).

A lot of countries (Canada included) seem to have a higher sense of government than we do. They seem to be comfortable in the large role they have given government, and seem to have a national identity with it. We tend to be more individualistic and untrusting of the government. And we also tend to think we are better than everyone else, and part of that means we don't want to become what those countries are. Hell, when I hear foreign people praising the idea of national healthcare, that is when I know it has to be a bad idea.
Old 09-22-09, 12:00 AM
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Re: Jimmy Carter Is An Idiot (racism discussion)

Originally Posted by kvrdave View Post
Here is the problem as I see it. We don't trust our government to make the services better, especially based on the amount that it will cost. If you look at our country's history with big social programs, they all cost more than they said they would and they are all a huge drain on the national debt/deficit. Additionally, we know that Obama is lying about this being budget neutral (or he won't sign it ) The only way that works is to raise taxes on the middle class, which he claimed he won't do (and is a future lie).
I'm no supporter of a big or oppressive government, which may surprise you, but I am a supporter of effective, efficient government and government where needed (again, "where needed" is a subjective concept depending on how one feels about egalitarianism; everyone needs highways (well, those with cars at least), but many don't want a nickel of their money going to support social programs or laws enforcing equity).

What's a mystery to me, vis--vis healthcare, and I admittedly haven't researched the question, is that Americans don't see, or don't want to see, that their government pays so much more for a closed system than other countries pay for their open systems. Wouldn't a lightbulb go off saying, "Hmm, maybe we're doing something wrong here"? "Why is it that our government pays almost $6000 per capita (2003 numbers) on a system that is supposed to be paid through private insurance, a system in which 46 million of my fellow citizens are left out in the cold, while Canada, Japan, Australia, and European countries spend give-or-take $3000 per capita (2003 numbers) on systems that are government-run and accept all citizens who walk through the door".
A lot of countries (Canada included) seem to have a higher sense of government than we do. They seem to be comfortable in the large role they have given government, and seem to have a national identity with it.
Well, I certainly wouldn't say national identity, but Canadians are generally comfortable with government because they see what it provides them and most of them live contented lives; though, believe me, we have plenty of spending scandals of our own (very few sex scandals, though; must be something in the water down there). I would love to see corruption and cronyism in government stamped out.
We tend to be more individualistic and untrusting of the government.
Exactly. The proverbial "rugged individualism", which is a laudable trait. I only have a problem with it when it is asserted that rugged individualism can't co-exist with a system that engenders equality and cares for those who, for whatever reason, can't pull out all the stops and be wildly successful. There are all kinds of reasons, but it seems like "lazy" is always the first aspersion cast at such people. Many people living in poverty are extremely hard-working (I know this first-hand), while some are genuinely disabled, while others still are just out to "take advantage of the system". Those are the ones who should be weeded out and left on the curb. Once again I take the opportunity to invoke the idea of a minimum livable income.
And we also tend to think we are better than everyone else, and part of that means we don't want to become what those countries are. Hell, when I hear foreign people praising the idea of national healthcare, that is when I know it has to be a bad idea.
I think you've hit the nail on the head. No offense, but as you have stated, there's an American national chauvinism that seems to growl, "If we don't do it here, or we didn't do it here first, it ain't worth doing".

Last edited by Norm de Plume; 09-22-09 at 12:03 AM.
Old 09-22-09, 01:01 AM
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Re: Jimmy Carter Is An Idiot (racism discussion)

Originally Posted by Norm de Plume View Post
I'm no supporter of a big or oppressive government, which may surprise you, but I am a supporter of effective, efficient government and government where needed (again, "where needed" is a subjective concept depending on how one feels about egalitarianism; everyone needs highways (well, those with cars at least), but many don't want a nickel of their money going to support social programs or laws enforcing equity).
I know I would certainly feel better about it all if I could point to any government programs that cost less than they were suppose to and worked as good as they were suppose to. All I see out of our government is programs that will be bankrupt in X years, etc. If social security, etc. is a mess, how much more so will this be?

What's a mystery to me, vis--vis healthcare, and I admittedly haven't researched the question, is that Americans don't see, or don't want to see, that their government pays so much more for a closed system than other countries pay for their open systems. Wouldn't a lightbulb go off saying, "Hmm, maybe we're doing something wrong here"? "Why is it that our government pays almost $6000 per capita (2003 numbers) on a system that is supposed to be paid through private insurance, a system in which 46 million of my fellow citizens are left out in the cold, while Canada, Japan, Australia, and European countries spend give-or-take $3000 per capita (2003 numbers) on systems that are government-run and accept all citizens who walk through the door".
Part of the problem is that I am sure that the US is essentially subsidizing much of the rest of the world. If all other places fix the prices of drugs, allow drugs from overseas (as we should), etc. and we don't, we get creamed because we can take it. But another part of the equation is that even though everyone elsewhere is covered, that doesn't mean the quality of care is the same. Personally, I am happy to pay more for better service, and to have the option to get something else if I don't like what I hear. I don't want to deal with rationed care and long wait times. The extra money is worth it to me.

Exactly. The proverbial "rugged individualism", which is a laudable trait. I only have a problem with it when it is asserted that rugged individualism can't co-exist with a system that engenders equality and cares for those who, for whatever reason, can't pull out all the stops and be wildly successful. There are all kinds of reasons, but it seems like "lazy" is always the first aspersion cast at such people. Many people living in poverty are extremely hard-working (I know this first-hand), while some are genuinely disabled, while others still are just out to "take advantage of the system". Those are the ones who should be weeded out and left on the curb. Once again I take the opportunity to invoke the idea of a minimum livable income.
The next problem, though, is that many would argue that we already have all those things taken care of. No one is refused emergency care for any reason. There are currently lots of healthcare programs in every state for low income people. And with welfare, food stamps, rental assistance, etc., the minimum livable income (imo) is met. Certainly if you want to live in Seattle on a government assistance wage your money won't go nearly as far as if you live in Redneckland, but that is a choice made about where to live. At any rate, I think we have those problems handled, and I don't think any plans on the table will get rid of the old plans, but just add another expensive thing to it all, and then we just pay even more money out (that we don't have) when it doesn't accomplish anything we don't already have.

I think you've hit the nail on the head. No offense, but as you have stated, there's an American national chauvinism that seems to growl, "If we don't do it here, or we didn't do it here first, it ain't worth doing".
None taken.

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I'd feel better about having a health system like other countries if I saw people from here going there when they need the best care. I truly thnk that all the ideas out there are a) crazy expensive, b) will result in lower quality care, c) won't actually cover everyone, and d) will be such a compromise that we only keep the worst elements of all the plans.
Old 09-22-09, 01:26 AM
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Re: Jimmy Carter Is An Idiot (racism discussion)

Originally Posted by kvrdave View Post
I'd feel better about having a health system like other countries if I saw people from here going there when they need the best care. I truly thnk that all the ideas out there are a) crazy expensive, b) will result in lower quality care, c) won't actually cover everyone, and d) will be such a compromise that we only keep the worst elements of all the plans.
There are plenty of Americans who go overseas for medical treatment, both for cosmetic surgery as well as much more serious intervention. Their cash cost is frequently lower than the deductible,

Of course the overseas hospitals usually employ local staff (sometimes with a few token American educated doctors thrown in), so they may not be as qualified as the staff that American hospitals import from the Philippines and...
Spoiler:
El Salvador

Last edited by Psi; 09-22-09 at 02:10 AM.
Old 09-22-09, 02:08 AM
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Re: Jimmy Carter Is An Idiot (racism discussion)

Originally Posted by kvrdave View Post
I know I would certainly feel better about it all if I could point to any government programs that cost less than they were suppose to and worked as good as they were suppose to. All I see out of our government is programs that will be bankrupt in X years, etc. If social security, etc. is a mess, how much more so will this be?
Wish I could answer that. I agree that there is a lot of government waste, not only in the States but up here too. That doesn't lead to my out-of-hand rejection of government. It needs fixing. There's too much waste and inefficiency. There are too many overpaid, entitled people in high places.
We recently had a provincial scandal surrounding a program (eHealth) that was in the process of computerizing the entire healthcare system (it's about time! Years in the making) in Ontario. The overseers of the program hired consultants at $2700 per fucking day, and one bitch had the audacity to bill taxpayers for her muffins and tea. The consultants were fired and the eHealth CEO stepped down and slunk away with a $317,000 severence package, in itself an outrage. This sort of graft makes people hate government. The solution is not to dismantle everything, but to make management much more rigorous and punishment for misconduct stricter (our justice system is laughable, especially for white collar crime).
Part of the problem is that I am sure that the US is essentially subsidizing much of the rest of the world. If all other places fix the prices of drugs, allow drugs from overseas (as we should), etc. and we don't, we get creamed because we can take it.
Come now, subsidizing the rest of the world? There's plenty of R&D going on elsewhere in the world. The U.S. should allow the cheaper generic drugs in. I'm not intimately familiar with the issue at all, but my feeling is it isn't being done because pharma profits would plummet.
Do pharmaceuticals even factor into that per capita U.S. rate?
But another part of the equation is that even though everyone elsewhere is covered, that doesn't mean the quality of care is the same. Personally, I am happy to pay more for better service, and to have the option to get something else if I don't like what I hear. I don't want to deal with rationed care and long wait times. The extra money is worth it to me.
That's a fair point, and there has been talk up here of experimenting with a dual private-public healthcare system in much the same way we have dual public and private school systems. It's worth pondering at least, since the private school "business" has, to my knowledge, not left the public school system worse off by virtue of its existence. Still, I would rather continue improving the public-only system than fiddle around with a partially private one.
There's no rationing of services here, but there are wait times (which have been successfully reduced in Ontario) in hospital emergency rooms (members of the public who come in with colds and other non-emergencies are partly to blame, so there should be some sort of information blitz about proper use) and for some surgical procedures. But look, you're going to get essentially the same level of care here as one does in the States. Trust me.
The next problem, though, is that many would argue that we already have all those things taken care of. No one is refused emergency care for any reason. There are currently lots of healthcare programs in every state for low income people. And with welfare, food stamps, rental assistance, etc., the minimum livable income (imo) is met. Certainly if you want to live in Seattle on a government assistance wage your money won't go nearly as far as if you live in Redneckland, but that is a choice made about where to live. At any rate, I think we have those problems handled, and I don't think any plans on the table will get rid of the old plans, but just add another expensive thing to it all, and then we just pay even more money out (that we don't have) when it doesn't accomplish anything we don't already have.
I don't know the situation as well as you do since I don't live there, but I'm sure there are millions of people living hand-to-mouth and cheque-to-cheque who would disagree. Millions are woefully underpaid; others have lost their homes to pay for medical procedures. We don't have the poverty problem even close to licked either, and we sure won't get anything done under the current government, but our overall safety net is more generous and poverty levels are lower.
I'd feel better about having a health system like other countries if I saw people from here going there when they need the best care.
Well, there is the odd story, blown way out of proportion by a gleeful Fox News down there and private healthcare advocates up here, about a person heading south for a faster surgery. That's an issue that is being worked on, but it's not like we have hordes of people dying for lack of surgical availability.
I truly thnk that all the ideas out there are a) crazy expensive, b) will result in lower quality care, c) won't actually cover everyone, and d) will be such a compromise that we only keep the worst elements of all the plans.
Then I suggest scrapping the insurance plan and taking the best ideas and methods from all the countries that have been doing the single-payer universal-healthcare thing successfully and cheaply (comparatively) for decades.

Last edited by Norm de Plume; 09-22-09 at 02:13 AM.
Old 09-22-09, 06:29 AM
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Re: Jimmy Carter Is An Idiot (racism discussion)

Originally Posted by Norm de Plume View Post
while Canada, Japan, Australia, and European countries spend give-or-take $3000 per capita (2003 numbers) on systems that are government-run and accept all citizens who walk through the door".
As an American living in Japan, I have to tell you that you shouldn't try to hold Japan up as an example to support any point.

All medical technology in Japan comes from America. American innovation drives health care in Japan, and the quality of the care here is way below that in America. If you want a transplant, go to America. Having trouble with your pregnancy, go have your baby in America. You want a better room in the hospital, bribe (yes, literally, BRIBE) the doctor (of course, to them it's a "gift" showing your "appreciation" for them taking care of you. How about hospitals closed at night? How about not being able to get an appointment at ANY doctor's office on a Thursday? How about lining up at 9 AM to go in to the clinic and sign the registry so you can be seen that day? How about showing up at a clinic at 2:00 in the afternoon with an emergency and being told that they can't help you today because there are too many patients ahead of you, so you should go to the hospital? And here's a fun one: some treatments require you to pay the FULL cost initially (in CASH, forget using credit cards in Japan, in general), and get reimbursed from the government later. That's fun. And if you think doctors overprescribe medications in the U.S., visit a doctor here. Dosages are lower, but they will literally hand you 5 or 6 prescriptions for a cold. Seriously, I could go on and on. ANYONE claiming that Japan has a decent health care system merely has to spend some time living here. If you don't live here, don't try to say how good it is.


Of course, I have sympathy for the uninsured in America, and it would be nice if there were some kind of emergency health care for people who are uninsured for some reason (recently laid off, children with stupid parents, the elderly who endured some kind of loss of their retirement investments (like Enron assholes stealing it or whatever, etc.)), but America is not a nanny state. Take care of yourself and your family. Do what needs to be done. Buy health care just like you buy your big-screen TV.

You get what you pay for. Why people can't understand this when it comes to health care, I truly can not comprehend.

When the US health care system goes public and prices are controlled and innovation is stifled, the rest of the world will begin to feel it. It may be my American arrogance showing, but seriously, I feel like the rest of the world feeds off of the innovative spirit of America when it comes to something like this. All of the other countries with socialized health care have the best of both worlds--the great technology and advances coming from America making things better in their own countries, without having to pay for it.

Last edited by Cheato; 09-22-09 at 06:31 AM.
Old 09-22-09, 08:57 AM
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Re: Jimmy Carter Is An Idiot (racism discussion)

^ ^ ^

Cheato can now expect a call from James Carter informing Cheato that he is a racist.
Old 09-22-09, 10:07 AM
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Re: Jimmy Carter Is An Idiot (racism discussion)

Originally Posted by Cheato View Post
As an American living in Japan, I have to tell you that you shouldn't try to hold Japan up as an example to support any point.

All medical technology in Japan comes from America. American innovation drives health care in Japan, and the quality of the care here is way below that in America. If you want a transplant, go to America. Having trouble with your pregnancy, go have your baby in America. You want a better room in the hospital, bribe (yes, literally, BRIBE) the doctor (of course, to them it's a "gift" showing your "appreciation" for them taking care of you. How about hospitals closed at night? How about not being able to get an appointment at ANY doctor's office on a Thursday? How about lining up at 9 AM to go in to the clinic and sign the registry so you can be seen that day? How about showing up at a clinic at 2:00 in the afternoon with an emergency and being told that they can't help you today because there are too many patients ahead of you, so you should go to the hospital? And here's a fun one: some treatments require you to pay the FULL cost initially (in CASH, forget using credit cards in Japan, in general), and get reimbursed from the government later. That's fun. And if you think doctors overprescribe medications in the U.S., visit a doctor here. Dosages are lower, but they will literally hand you 5 or 6 prescriptions for a cold. Seriously, I could go on and on. ANYONE claiming that Japan has a decent health care system merely has to spend some time living here. If you don't live here, don't try to say how good it is.


Of course, I have sympathy for the uninsured in America, and it would be nice if there were some kind of emergency health care for people who are uninsured for some reason (recently laid off, children with stupid parents, the elderly who endured some kind of loss of their retirement investments (like Enron assholes stealing it or whatever, etc.)), but America is not a nanny state. Take care of yourself and your family. Do what needs to be done. Buy health care just like you buy your big-screen TV.

You get what you pay for. Why people can't understand this when it comes to health care, I truly can not comprehend.

When the US health care system goes public and prices are controlled and innovation is stifled, the rest of the world will begin to feel it. It may be my American arrogance showing, but seriously, I feel like the rest of the world feeds off of the innovative spirit of America when it comes to something like this. All of the other countries with socialized health care have the best of both worlds--the great technology and advances coming from America making things better in their own countries, without having to pay for it.
I spent 7 years in Mexico (and 1 year in Japan) and I completely agree. Seeing other countries' health care systems is an eye opening experience. Also, after living a combined 20 years in Alaska and Washington State I have to wonder at the number of Canadians crossing the border to be treated. Was I imagining them? Or imagining hearing them say they came here because they didn't want to wait 6 months to be seen by a doctor? If I called now I can 100% guarantee I will be seen by a doctor today, regardless for what reason. THAT is why don't want the DMV involved in my health care.

Last edited by DeputyDave; 09-22-09 at 10:35 AM.
Old 09-22-09, 10:24 AM
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Re: Jimmy Carter Is An Idiot (racism discussion)

The Germans are somewhat unhappy with their system as well.

http://www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0,,4546042,00.html

The study, presented in Berlin on Wednesday, showed that 62 percent of the general population and 87 percent of physicians do not have a good impression of the health care service.

More than half of those polled, both citizens and doctors, said that they believed the standard of medical services in Germany had declined in the past few years.

Approximately 50 percent of those polled confessed that they had concerns over whether they would be able to rely on the medical services, standards of treatment and medication in the future.

Four out of five citizens believed that treatment, medication and health insurance will continue to get more expensive in the coming years.

On a positive note, approximately two-thirds of Germans rated the efficiency of the health service as "good" or "very good," but just as many demanded a comprehensive health care system reform, along with 80 percent of physicians polled.

The majority of those who took part in the survey doubted that the state could guarantee its policy of good health care for all on a long-term basis.

Nearly 60 percent of physicians polled admitted they had thought about walking out on the public health sector in favor of a job in private health care. The study also showed that many German hospital doctors and young medical staff were considering working abroad.
Old 09-22-09, 10:58 AM
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Re: Jimmy Carter Is An Idiot (racism discussion)

Originally Posted by kuroiinu View Post
There are plenty of Americans who go overseas for medical treatment, both for cosmetic surgery as well as much more serious intervention. Their cash cost is frequently lower than the deductible,

Of course the overseas hospitals usually employ local staff (sometimes with a few token American educated doctors thrown in), so they may not be as qualified as the staff that American hospitals import from the Philippines and...
Spoiler:
El Salvador
I know that people from here do go overseas for a number of things, but they do so because of the cost, not because of the quality of care. People do the same thing for dental care all the time (go to Mexico). That's fine. But I don't want to end up with that quality of care being the norm here.
Old 09-22-09, 11:03 AM
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Re: Jimmy Carter Is An Idiot (racism discussion)

Originally Posted by Norm de Plume View Post

Then I suggest scrapping the insurance plan and taking the best ideas and methods from all the countries that have been doing the single-payer universal-healthcare thing successfully and cheaply (comparatively) for decades.
I don't have a problem at looking at those things. But what we will end up with is a government that cannot be sued for their mistakes and doctors that can. Our solution will keep trial lawyers happy, but will frustrate doctors. It will lead to fewer doctors, more patients, and worse care.

I would prefer to look to a solution that doesn't involve the government getting more into the game than they are.
Old 09-22-09, 11:12 AM
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Re: Jimmy Carter Is An Idiot (racism discussion)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Norm de Plume

Then I suggest scrapping the insurance plan and taking the best ideas and methods from all the countries that have been doing the single-payer universal-healthcare thing successfully and cheaply (comparatively) for decades


I would suggest we don't do that.
Old 09-22-09, 01:03 PM
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Re: Jimmy Carter Is An Idiot (racism discussion)

Originally Posted by Nazgul View Post
The Germans are somewhat unhappy
Old 09-22-09, 02:28 PM
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Re: Jimmy Carter Is An Idiot (racism discussion)

Originally Posted by dork View Post
Old 09-22-09, 03:10 PM
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Re: Jimmy Carter Is An Idiot (racism discussion)

Originally Posted by kvrdave View Post
I know that people from here do go overseas for a number of things, but they do so because of the cost, not because of the quality of care. People do the same thing for dental care all the time (go to Mexico). That's fine. But I don't want to end up with that quality of care being the norm here.
Their best hospitals are not as good as the best American hospitals, but I'd say that they are as good as or better than the average American hospitals, and cost a lot less.
Old 09-22-09, 06:07 PM
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Re: Jimmy Carter Is An Idiot (racism discussion)

Old 09-22-09, 06:11 PM
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Re: Jimmy Carter Is An Idiot (racism discussion)

Originally Posted by Cheato View Post
As an American living in Japan, I have to tell you that you shouldn't try to hold Japan up as an example to support any point.

All medical technology in Japan comes from America. American innovation drives health care in Japan, and the quality of the care here is way below that in America. If you want a transplant, go to America. Having trouble with your pregnancy, go have your baby in America. You want a better room in the hospital, bribe (yes, literally, BRIBE) the doctor (of course, to them it's a "gift" showing your "appreciation" for them taking care of you. How about hospitals closed at night? How about not being able to get an appointment at ANY doctor's office on a Thursday? How about lining up at 9 AM to go in to the clinic and sign the registry so you can be seen that day? How about showing up at a clinic at 2:00 in the afternoon with an emergency and being told that they can't help you today because there are too many patients ahead of you, so you should go to the hospital? And here's a fun one: some treatments require you to pay the FULL cost initially (in CASH, forget using credit cards in Japan, in general), and get reimbursed from the government later. That's fun. And if you think doctors overprescribe medications in the U.S., visit a doctor here. Dosages are lower, but they will literally hand you 5 or 6 prescriptions for a cold. Seriously, I could go on and on. ANYONE claiming that Japan has a decent health care system merely has to spend some time living here. If you don't live here, don't try to say how good it is.
Thanks for the edification. I would not have expected that from an advanced country such as Japan, but then again, Japan has been through some crippling economic crises, including the current one.
When the US health care system goes public and prices are controlled and innovation is stifled, the rest of the world will begin to feel it. It may be my American arrogance showing, but seriously, I feel like the rest of the world feeds off of the innovative spirit of America when it comes to something like this. All of the other countries with socialized health care have the best of both worlds--the great technology and advances coming from America making things better in their own countries, without having to pay for it.
Sure, many innovations, medical and otherwise, come from the States, and they benefit people around the world, but many innovations come from elsewhere, too, and they too benefit people around the world. You make it sound as if the only people with brain cells and ideas live in the States.
Toronto has some of the best medical research facilities in the world. Without some of their advances, many of the things you take for granted wouldn't be available. It goes both ways.
Originally Posted by kvrdave
I don't have a problem at looking at those things. But what we will end up with is a government that cannot be sued for their mistakes and doctors that can. Our solution will keep trial lawyers happy, but will frustrate doctors. It will lead to fewer doctors, more patients, and worse care.
I would prefer to look to a solution that doesn't involve the government getting more into the game than they are.
At least you're open to the idea, which is commendable. Canadians are decidedly less litigious than Americans, for what reasons I don't know. Down there, if you're a stupid klutz and spill hot coffee onto your crotch, you sue McDonalds and get a windfall of $2 million. Up here, it wouldn't occur to most people that the first solution is to run to a courthouse, especially when the blame for your injuries belongs to you.
Up here, both the government and doctors can be sued, though it's not frequently done to my knowledge. Ambulance-chasing lawyers are virtually nonexistent here; at least, the only such lawyers one sees advertised on TV are on Buffalo stations: "Hurt in a car? Call William Mattar!"
Old 09-22-09, 07:07 PM
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Re: Jimmy Carter Is An Idiot (racism discussion)

there seems to be a perception being fostered in america that countries with a "socialised" healthcare system do not have a vibrant private sector as well. that is not the case. as to innovation, i'm not convinced that the private sector is a driving force in this area. how much money will the companies involved gain from the development of an effective new treatment? where is the financial reward? note i'm not talking about yet another useless wonder drug, which certainly do get thrown up all the time. research through universities and dedicated facilities, funded by a combination of public and private sources, seems to be the way much of the recent advances have been made.
Old 09-22-09, 07:50 PM
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Re: Jimmy Carter Is An Idiot (racism discussion)

Originally Posted by Burnt Thru View Post
there seems to be a perception being fostered in america that countries with a "socialised" healthcare system do not have a vibrant private sector as well. that is not the case. as to innovation, <b>i'm not convinced that the private sector is a driving force</b> in this area. how much money will the companies involved gain from the development of an effective new treatment? where is the financial reward? note i'm not talking about yet another useless wonder drug, which certainly do get thrown up all the time. research through universities and dedicated facilities, <b>funded by</b> a combination of public and <b>private sources</b>, seems to be the way much of the recent advances have been made.
Old 09-26-09, 08:16 AM
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Re: Jimmy Carter Is An Idiot (racism discussion)

Now that we've established that Jimmy Carter is an idiot, how does he rank among the worst presidents of the 20th Century?
Old 09-26-09, 09:57 AM
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Re: Jimmy Carter Is An Idiot (racism discussion)

Hasn't he always been #1?

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