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Religion, Politics and World Events They make great dinner conversation, don't you think? plus Political Film

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Old 02-18-09, 12:59 AM   #1
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Afghanistan: The War Continues Under Obama

Obama has authorized 17,000 additional troops for Afghanistan.

Obama: "This increase is necessary to stabilize a deteriorating situation in Afghanistan, which has not received the strategic attention, direction and resources it urgently requires ... The Taliban is resurgent in Afghanistan, and al Qaeda supports the insurgency and threatens America from its safe haven along the Pakistani border."

What are the overall objectives there? What must we achieve before we bring our men and women home?

What kind of increased international support for this previously popular war, which he openly supports, will he garner and how long will that persist? How long will the American public tolerate this war if no clear objective is met?

I do believe Afghanistan could become Obama's "Iraq."

When do we start talking about a withdrawal plan instead of an increase in troops? This war is now more than 7 years old.
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Old 02-18-09, 01:00 AM   #2
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re: Afghanistan: The War Continues Under Obama

Is Afghanistan an imminent threat to us? Is this all for oil? NO BLOOD FOR OIL! IMPEACH NOW!

Oh this is Obama.. Good move

I kid.. We'll find that dread pirate Osama any day now.
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Old 02-18-09, 01:26 AM   #3
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re: Afghanistan: The War Continues Under Obama

I thought he was always pretty clear that he wanted troops (even more troops) in Afghanistan. But I agree that because he has ordained it, it will be deemed pure and good.
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Old 02-18-09, 01:44 AM   #4
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re: Afghanistan: The War Continues Under Obama

I think it's too late for any real progress in Afghanistan.
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Old 02-18-09, 02:26 AM   #5
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re: Afghanistan: The War Continues Under Obama

Might be right. Might have only had a small window and it passed long ago. Personally, I don't think there was ever hope to really do much. Consider the amount of resources the Soviet Union put into the region and came up empty. I think it is probably best served by a relatively small number of troops and a large number of drone planes with missles used to keep their numbers continually on the run and in hiding.
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Old 02-18-09, 07:54 AM   #6
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re: Afghanistan: The War Continues Under Obama

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Old 02-18-09, 07:54 AM   #7
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re: Afghanistan: The War Continues Under Obama

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Originally Posted by kvrdave View Post
Might be right. Might have only had a small window and it passed long ago. Personally, I don't think there was ever hope to really do much. Consider the amount of resources the Soviet Union put into the region and came up empty. I think it is probably best served by a relatively small number of troops and a large number of drone planes with missles used to keep their numbers continually on the run and in hiding.
Exactly. I guess at this point I hope we don't stay there for too long, or don't cause enough harm so we "must" stay there.
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Old 02-18-09, 07:55 AM   #8
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re: Afghanistan: The War Continues Under Obama

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we forgot. nyuk nyuk.
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Old 02-18-09, 08:56 AM   #9
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re: Afghanistan: The War Continues Under Obama

Zbigniew Brezinski: 'We're probably going have to agree to let the 'moderate Taliban' run things as long as they keep AQ out.'
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Old 02-18-09, 09:28 AM   #10
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re: Afghanistan: The War Continues Under Obama

I think the general consensus is that this war is THE war to be fighting. I'm against all war, but if he pulls from Iraq and invests more in this one, I'm okay with it. As long as there are clear goals.
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Old 02-18-09, 09:30 AM   #11
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re: Afghanistan: The War Continues Under Obama

I think it's too late for any real progress in Afghanistan as well. I'm not even sure what we deem as "progress" over there.

Yes, Obama has always been clear that we needed more troops in Afghanistan, fewer in Iraq. I'm not claiming a change in policy. I'm just wondering where the "out" is.

While our presence is smaller in scale, it would seem our extended presence in Afghanistan, the "popular" (and unforgotten) War is going to end up in a place similar to Iraq. With no positive end in sight.

I'm surprised, given no clear objective, that Obama is not ordering a 16-23 month withdrawal of forces in BOTH Iraq and Afghanistan. Once all eyes are back on Afghanistan, it will not be a rosy picture. I can't imagine what it would be like to get out of Iraq only to be shipped into Pakistan.

I'm sure Obama has some sort of positive angle to all this, so I just want to be reassured and told what that is. What am I to Hope™ for? We heard of progress early on in this war. But that seems like years ago, because it was. Is Obama ready to let it all slip back under his watch?

Let me be clear: I am certainly not "blaming" Obama for Afghanistan. But this is a war that he supports (in contrast to Iraq) and that he is now investing more troops in. So it does become a burden for him to provide clear objectives and justify his actions and expectations.
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Old 02-18-09, 09:37 AM   #12
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re: Afghanistan: The War Continues Under Obama

It's Obama's war.

He supported it & he inheirted it.

What clear objectives are there in Afghanistan - assuming we're not willing to send a large military force into Pakistan - in other words, invade Pakistan?
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Old 02-18-09, 09:38 AM   #13
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re: Afghanistan: The War Continues Under Obama

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Originally Posted by kvrdave View Post
I thought he was always pretty clear that he wanted troops (even more troops) in Afghanistan. But I agree that because he has ordained it, it will be deemed pure and good.
Most everyone was supportive of the Afghanistan operation. There is ACTUALLY a reason to be there, unlike Iraq.
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Old 02-18-09, 09:40 AM   #14
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re: Afghanistan: The War Continues Under Obama

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Most everyone was supportive of the Afghanistan operation. There is ACTUALLY a reason to be there, unlike Iraq.

What's the reason to be there now?

Probably the best advice is given by Brezinski - in effect - declare victory and come home.
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Old 02-18-09, 09:41 AM   #15
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re: Afghanistan: The War Continues Under Obama

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What clear objectives are there in Afghanistan - assuming we're not willing to send a large military force into Pakistan - in other words, invade Pakistan?
I assume stopping the Taliban from assuming control. Stopping them from chopping off heads and blowing up girls' schools would be a plus too.
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Old 02-18-09, 09:43 AM   #16
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re: Afghanistan: The War Continues Under Obama

Taliban - minus AQ - what's the problem?

You weren't for the stopping of similiar violence in Iraq.

Do I detect a note of inconsistency?
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Old 02-18-09, 09:46 AM   #17
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re: Afghanistan: The War Continues Under Obama

Perhaps CRM114 would favor sending a large American military force to Darfur to stop folks from cutting off other folks' heads and the other violence that is prevalent in Darfur?
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Old 02-18-09, 09:46 AM   #18
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re: Afghanistan: The War Continues Under Obama

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Originally Posted by classicman2 View Post
Taliban - minus AQ - what's the problem?

You weren't for the stopping of similiar violence in Iraq.

Do I detect a note of inconsistency?
Sunni/Shia violence? No.

Islamic fundamentalist oppression? Yes.

Taliban controlled Pakistan? NO!
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Old 02-18-09, 09:48 AM   #19
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re: Afghanistan: The War Continues Under Obama

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Perhaps CRM114 would favor sending a large American military force to Darfur to stop folks from cutting off other folks' heads and the other violence that is prevalent in Darfur?
What did they have to do with 9/11?
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Old 02-18-09, 09:50 AM   #20
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re: Afghanistan: The War Continues Under Obama

I assume you think AQ is the problem. If so, do you favor sending 150,000+ American troops into Pakistan to deal with that problem?
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Old 02-18-09, 10:08 AM   #21
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re: Afghanistan: The War Continues Under Obama

Do you favor AQ controlling Pakistan's nuclear arsenal?

Like I said, there are actually REASONS to contemplate this war unlike Iraq.
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Old 02-18-09, 10:13 AM   #22
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re: Afghanistan: The War Continues Under Obama

If we had the will and commitment, we could move our high end people into those passes between Pakistan and Afghanistan. Supply them by air and make a hard presence there on bases that were built up. Get serious about it.

Aerial mine the hell out of the passes and mountains, though the bleeding hearts would cry about it. I mean compared to one JDAM alone those mining cluster bombs cost nothing. Make those passes a no man's land of mines, a nightmare for foot traffic. Mined like Rommel wanted the Atlantic wall mined. An insanely deadly nightmare.

Leave a few passes un-mined and funnel the enemy traffic there by necessity.

And suss out the traffic coming out of Pakistan with various thermal views from birds in the air and take them out with air power, mopped up by our troops.

When mines go off the people there are easy to find and eliminate. That's the serious approach, the hard approach that would piss off the bleeding hearts the world over. So here we are, yet again, 'playing nice' in war.

No surprise it's not working.

Sitting off on small outposts located around the country waiting for the enemy to pick and choose a time to attack you at their logistical convenience, however, is going to obviously have a poor success rate. No matter the addition of a few thousand troops.

Amazing that somehow the idea of us knowing where they are coming from, the paths they take to come into the theatre, yet we don't fight them there at the source? It's mindless and ridiculous.
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Old 02-18-09, 10:28 AM   #23
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re: Afghanistan: The War Continues Under Obama

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Amazing that somehow the idea of us knowing where they are coming from, the paths they take to come into the theatre, yet we don't fight them there at the source? It's mindless and ridiculous.
One of the problems with the focus being elsewhere.
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Old 02-18-09, 10:31 AM   #24
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re: Afghanistan: The War Continues Under Obama

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One of the problems with the focus being elsewhere.
That has little to do with it, actually.

We could handily do that with the resources there now. And greatly cut down on civilian deaths, which will turn public opinion against us just like it did the USSR.
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Old 02-18-09, 10:32 AM   #25
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re: Afghanistan: The War Continues Under Obama

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Perhaps CRM114 would favor sending a large American military force to Darfur to stop folks from cutting off other folks' heads and the other violence that is prevalent in Darfur?
I do.
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