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A poll about "gun free zones."

Old 02-17-08, 11:08 PM
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A poll about "gun free zones."

I know there's already a thread in the "other" forum, but this is a politcal topic, and I wanted to do a poll.

Here are 5 real world examples of why I am in favor of allowing law abiding adult citizens to carry concealed handguns.

The first 3 are real world examples of law abiding gun owners using their legal guns to save lives, without ever pulling the trigger.

The last 2 are examples of how a "gun free zone" makes it easy for one person to murder a large number of people.

The poll that I am conducting in this thread is based on what Texas did in response to the 5th example that I am posting. I agree with what Texas did. For my poll, please vote for whether you agree, or disagree, with what Texas did in response to this incident.

I am not bolding anything here, because every word here is important. The things that I am posting here are not full articles. Because I am posting from 5 different things, I am only posting the stuff that I would have bolded, if I had posted the entire articles.

I would also like to point out that there has never been a mass shooting of people at any U.S. gun show or gun range. You are more likely to be shot at a "gun free" public school, than at a gun show or a gun range where everyone has a gun. Also, Northern Illinois University, where last week's incident took place, was also a "gun free zone."


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appalac...f_Law_shooting

Appalachian School of Law shooting

According to Bridges, at the first sound of gunfire, he and fellow student Mikael Gross, unbeknownst to each other, ran to their vehicles to fetch their personal owned firearms....

Bridges and Gross approached Odighizuwa from different angles, with Bridges yelling at Odighizuwa to drop his gun. Odighizuwa then dropped his firearm

.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luke_Woodham

Luke Woodham (Pearl, Mississippi shooting)

He went on to wound 7 others before Joel Myrick, the assistant principal, retrieved a .45 pistol from the glove compartment of his truck and subdued Woodham

.

http://www.breitbart.com/article.php...show_article=1

8 Grocery Employees Stabbed in Tennessee

July 21, 2006

By WOODY BAIRD

Associated Press Writer

MEMPHIS, Tenn. (AP) - A knife-wielding grocery store employee attacked eight co-workers Friday, seriously injuring five before a witness pulled a gun and stopped him

The attacker, chasing one victim into the store's parking lot, was subdued by Chris Cope

Cope said he grabbed a 9mm semiautomatic pistol from his pickup truck when he saw the attacker chasing the victim

"When he turned around and saw my pistol, he threw the knife away, put his hands up and got on the ground," Cope told The Associated Press. "He saw my gun and that was pretty much it."

.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virginia_Tech_massacre

Virginia Tech massacre

In 2006, prior to the shootings, legislator Todd Gilbert had introduced a related bill into the Virginia House of Delegates. The bill, HB 1572 was intended to forbid public universities in Virginia from preventing students from lawfully carrying a concealed handgun on campus. The university opposed the bill, which died in subcommittee in January 2006. Virginia Tech spokesman Larry Hincker praised the defeat of the bill, and stated, "I'm sure the university community is appreciative of the General Assembly's actions because this will help parents, students, faculty and visitors feel safe on our campus."

.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luby%27s_massacre

Luby's massacre

On October 16, 1991, Hennard drove his 1987 Ford Ranger pickup truck through the front window of a Luby's Cafeteria at 1705 East Central Texas Expressway in Killeen, yelled "This is what Bell County has done to me!", then opened fire on the restaurant's patrons and staff with a Glock 17 pistol and later a Ruger P89.

About 80 people were in the restaurant at the time. He stalked, shot, and killed 23 people and wounded another 20 before committing suicide.

During the shooting, he approached Suzanna Gratia Hupp and her parents. Hupp had actually brought a handgun to the Luby's Cafeteria that day, but had left it in her vehicle due to the laws in force at the time, forbidding citizens from carrying firearms.

According to her later testimony in favor of Missouri's HB-1720 bill and in general, after she realized that her firearm was not in her purse, but "a hundred feet away in [her] car", her father charged at Hennard in an attempt to subdue him, only to be gunned down; a short time later, her mother was also shot and killed. (Hupp later expressed regret for abiding by the law in question by leaving her firearm in her car, rather than keeping it on her person.)

Reacting to the massacre, in 1995 the Texas Legislature passed a shall-issue gun law allowing Texas citizens with the required permit to carry concealed weapons. The law was sponsored by State Rep. Suzanna Gratia Hupp, R-Lampasas, who was present at the Luby's massacre and both of whose parents were shot and killed. The 1995 Texas law, signed by then-Governor George W. Bush, became part of a broad movement to allow U.S. citizens to easily obtain permits to carry concealed weapons.
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Old 02-17-08, 11:31 PM
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I have no problem with concealed carry, provided there is a robust licensing and permitting system in place.
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Old 02-17-08, 11:35 PM
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Originally Posted by JasonF
I have no problem with concealed carry, provided there is a robust licensing and permitting system in place.
I am in favor of background checks, and required classes on proper gun use and safety.
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Old 02-17-08, 11:46 PM
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I'm confused. The subject header says the poll is about gun-free zones, but the poll itself is about concealed weapons permits.
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Old 02-17-08, 11:51 PM
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Originally Posted by grundle
I am in favor of background checks, and required classes on proper gun use and safety.
That's what I had in mind. Also, periodic testing, just like you have to periodically go in and renew your drivers license.

I go back and forth on whether people should have to register their firearms. I tend to think they should, but I recognize the legitimate objections to gun registration.
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Old 02-17-08, 11:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Groucho
I'm confused. The subject header says the poll is about gun-free zones, but the poll itself is about concealed weapons permits.
Welcome to Grundleville. Don't ask questions. Just go with the flow.
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Old 02-18-08, 12:28 AM
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Originally Posted by grundle
IIn 2006, prior to the shootings, legislator Todd Gilbert had introduced a related bill into the Virginia House of Delegates. The bill, HB 1572 was intended to forbid public universities in Virginia from preventing students from lawfully carrying a concealed handgun on campus. The university opposed the bill, which died in subcommittee in January 2006. Virginia Tech spokesman Larry Hincker praised the defeat of the bill, and stated, "I'm sure the university community is appreciative of the General Assembly's actions because this will help parents, students, faculty and visitors feel safe on our campus."
Do you know what today's colleges need? More young, drunk, rowdy college kids-- and more young, drunk rowdy college kids carrying guns! Yep, problem solved.

And nevermind the fact that once one of these carrying students draws his Glock amid the panic and chaos if a lecture hall shooting, I just can't imagine any confusion, with multiple students drawing multiple loaded weapons. I'm sure all of these students would do exaclty the right thing in a life and death situation with a suicidal gunman, given their extensive background in law enforcement and military service (either that, or equally empowering weekend lecture on gun safety).

Yeah, I can't see any problem at all with arming college kids. Goddamn those Virginia lawmakers!
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Old 02-18-08, 12:30 AM
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Originally Posted by JasonF
I have no problem with concealed carry, provided there is a robust licensing and permitting system in place.
What do you mean by "robust"?

Originally Posted by JasonF
That's what I had in mind. Also, periodic testing, just like you have to periodically go in and renew your drivers license.
The only test I have to take while renewing my drivers license is that of the eye test.




This thread should be interesting seeing as the majority seem to know absolutely nothing about firearms or the purchase thereof, let alone that of concealed carry permits.

Then there's always the perception of armed cops vs. armed citizens...."Why do people need guns?!!? We have the 5-OH!!!"

Gun-free zones are asinine. I'm waiting for the day where a shooting occurs and someone sues the establishment in which they were either shot at or had a family member killed stating the fact that the death/shooting may have been prevented if not lessened if the building had not been designated a "gun-free" zone.

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Old 02-18-08, 12:31 AM
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Originally Posted by Dave7393
Do you know what today's colleges need? More young, drunk, rowdy college kids-- and more young, drunk rowdy college kids carrying guns! Yep, problem solved.

And nevermind the fact that once one of these carrying students draws his Glock amid the panic and chaos if a lecture hall shooting, I just can't imagine any confusion, with multiple students drawing multiple loaded weapons. I'm sure all of these students would do exaclty the right thing in a life and death situation with a suicidal gunman, given their extensive background in law enforcement and military service (either that, or equally empowering weekend lecture on gun safety).

Yeah, I can't see any problem at all with arming college kids. Goddamn those Virginia lawmakers!
Do you own a single firearm?
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Old 02-18-08, 12:32 AM
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Originally Posted by MartinBlank
Do you own a single firearm?
Sure do.

What's your point?
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Old 02-18-08, 12:35 AM
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You make the same assertion every anti-gun person does..."THEY'LL GET DRUNK AND SNAP!! ONLY COPS AND MILITARY ARE ANY GOOD WITH GUNS!!! BOOGA-BOOGA!!"

If you did own a firearm, you'd know that that assertion's complete bullshit.
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Old 02-18-08, 12:38 AM
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It's almost as if we've been brainwashed to believe that to excel at something you MUST have be part of a government bureaucracy to be successful.
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Old 02-18-08, 12:42 AM
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Originally Posted by MartinBlank
You make the same assertion every anti-gun person does..."THEY'LL GET DRUNK AND SNAP!! ONLY COPS AND MILITARY ARE ANY GOOD WITH GUNS!!! BOOGA-BOOGA!!"
Wow, did I say somewhere that "ONLY COPS AND MILITARY ARE ANY GOOD WITH GUNS!!!"?

I'm talking about letting young people, who don't even have any sense of their own mortality much less ANY practical experience or knowledge of firearms of any kind, carry concealed weapons just in case someone goes batshit with a shotgun in the middle of a geology lecture.

If you did own a firearm, you'd know that that assertion's complete bullshit.
Like I said, I didn't make that assertation, you put in my mouth (let's at least agree on that).

And if you disagree with me about letting a bunch of kids carry concealed weapons on campus, it just goes to show how amazing it is that someone can actually own a firearm and disagree with you on this issue.
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Old 02-18-08, 12:52 AM
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Originally Posted by Dave7393
Wow, did I say somewhere that "ONLY COPS AND MILITARY ARE ANY GOOD WITH GUNS!!!"?
Yes you did....

Originally Posted by Dave7393
I'm sure all of these students would do exaclty the right thing in a life and death situation with a suicidal gunman, given their extensive background in law enforcement and military service (either that, or equally empowering weekend lecture on gun safety).
Originally Posted by Dave7393
I'm talking about letting young people, who don't even have any sense of their own mortality much less ANY practical experience or knowledge of firearms of any kind, carry concealed weapons just in case someone goes batshit with a shotgun in the middle of a geology lecture.

The age to purchase a rifle or shotgun is 18. The age to purchase a handgun is 21. I'm not certain about all states, but my guess Concealed Carry laws apply to those over 21 also. These "kids" as you call them, are still allowed by law to own these firearms and carry them. Why should a college campus be any different that carrying at a mall or a super market?
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Old 02-18-08, 01:19 AM
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Originally Posted by MartinBlank
Yes you did....
If you want to get into a pissing contest about what I said, I'm game. What I *didn't* say was that "Only cops and the military are good with guns." Never said it, never thought it, never wrote it. If it makes your argument stick a bit better by insisting that I said it and am therefore no different than anyone else you've disagreed with about gun ownership, well sorry, you're out of luck.

If you notice, I only made my point about college campuses, correct? That's an important point. If I made it about everyone, you'd have a point. But I didn't-- so you don't.

Many young people don't have a sense of their own mortality, and don't have any real world knowledge of firearms. Now, let's say some of those people HAD actually served in the military or law enforcement (as some do), then they'd have a better sense of these issues and would be a more responsible gun owner than someone who basically had done nothing except fill out paperwork and go to a firing range. I think that this is critical for young people, many of whom don't have the life experiences to understand the responsibilities they're undertaking by doing this, considering how undevelopd they are as adults in the first place.

The age to purchase a rifle or shotgun is 18. The age to purchase a handgun is 21. I'm not certain about all states, but my guess Concealed Carry laws apply to those over 21 also.
I'm not certain of all states either, so that's a guess on both our parts.

These "kids" as you call them, are still allowed by law to own these firearms and carry them. Why should a college campus be any different that carrying at a mall or a super market?
Yeah, I call them kids, and that's not a stretch. Living/studying in the culture of a college campus is profoundly different than interacting with people for a few hours in a shopping mall. A campus still isn't the "real world."
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Old 02-18-08, 07:55 AM
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Why not an Open Carry poll option?
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Old 02-18-08, 08:12 AM
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Originally Posted by Dave7393
Do you know what today's colleges need? More young, drunk, rowdy college kids-- and more young, drunk rowdy college kids carrying guns! Yep, problem solved.
As stated, in most, if not all states you have to be 21 to get a CCP, not to mention you aren't allowed to carry if you have any alcohol in your system.
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Old 02-18-08, 09:02 AM
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Originally Posted by Dave7393
Do you know what today's colleges need? More young, drunk, rowdy college kids-- and more young, drunk rowdy college kids carrying guns! Yep, problem solved.
I always love this straw man. No one is suggesting handing out free CCW's with a complimentary Glock with the free condoms they give out at Health Services.
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Old 02-18-08, 09:08 AM
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It ought to be mandatory that everyone over the age of 16 should carry a firearm.

They should be allowed to carry them any place.
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Old 02-18-08, 09:16 AM
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btw: I do have a gun permit. So beware - I'll pop a cap in your ass in a New York minute.
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Old 02-18-08, 09:17 AM
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Originally Posted by MartinBlank

The only test I have to take while renewing my drivers license is that of the eye test.
Careful....not sure you want to use DL's and cars as an example. To get that DL you not only had to take an eye test, but a written test and demonstrate your ability to drive a car safely. And your DL is easily suspended. Show you do stupid (even if not deadly things) you could lose your license for a period of time. And even if not suspended, you could have to pay a fine for even minor things.

Thats not to mention that to own a car you must have it licensed, tagged and inspected. Meaning that you have to provide the car to government officials (or authorized private company) to verify you still have the car, it is in good working order, check it out for safety.

I'd be a lot more receptive to individuals owning guns if it were as rigorous as getting and keeping a DL and owning a car.
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Old 02-18-08, 09:42 AM
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Originally Posted by classicman2
btw: I do have a gun permit. So beware - I'll pop a cap in your ass in a New York minute.
You got a handgun permit in NY? That truly is impressive.
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Old 02-18-08, 09:54 AM
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Originally Posted by John Galt
As stated, in most, if not all states you have to be 21 to get a CCP, not to mention you aren't allowed to carry if you have any alcohol in your system.
I guess there'd be no problems with enforcing this in the relatively dry environment of a college campus-- but nobody on campus drinks until they're 21 anyway, and those that do always drink responsibly.

Originally Posted by crazyronin
I always love this straw man. No one is suggesting handing out free CCW's with a complimentary Glock with the free condoms they give out at Health Services.
I know. I'm not either. That would probably be a bad idea.
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Old 02-18-08, 09:58 AM
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Originally Posted by Sdallnct
Careful....not sure you want to use DL's and cars as an example. To get that DL you not only had to take an eye test, but a written test and demonstrate your ability to drive a car safely. And your DL is easily suspended. Show you do stupid (even if not deadly things) you could lose your license for a period of time. And even if not suspended, you could have to pay a fine for even minor things.

Thats not to mention that to own a car you must have it licensed, tagged and inspected. Meaning that you have to provide the car to government officials (or authorized private company) to verify you still have the car, it is in good working order, check it out for safety.

I'd be a lot more receptive to individuals owning guns if it were as rigorous as getting and keeping a DL and owning a car.
Yeah. By all means, let's not compare a right guaranteed in the Constitution to something like driving, since states could forbid driving altogether. Let's compare bearing firearms to other rights then, like voting or free speech or religion. How many tests do you have to go through to exercise those rights? Hell, it seems like we can't test people before we allow them to vote, precisely because some people with a political agenda were using such tests as a way to disenfranchise voters. That sounds like a lot of the "reasonable gun control" measures that gun control advocates would like put into place, where they make it either impossible to get a gun or so burdensome people just give up.
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Old 02-18-08, 10:18 AM
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Originally Posted by Dave7393
I guess there'd be no problems with enforcing this in the relatively dry environment of a college campus-- but nobody on campus drinks until they're 21 anyway, and those that do always drink responsibly.
If you get caught drinking underage you get a slap on the wrist punishment from the school, if you get caught with a concealed handgun under 21 or with alcohol in your system you face some serious consequences. For that reason, people tend to follow the concealed carry laws a lot more than they do alcohol laws. I know that everytime I leave a bar I take my handgun out and either place it on the dash or in the back of the truck so that I don't risk losing my concealed carry priviledges.
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