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Wow! Here a new (to me) 9/11 conspiracy deal....

Old 04-20-06, 12:03 AM
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Wow! Here a new (to me) 9/11 conspiracy deal....

http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...81991288263801

It is an HOUR AND 21 MINUTES LONG. I haven't watched it all, but it is really bizarre. Has anyone seen this before or can anyone comment. It is called "loose change 2nd ed." I believe.
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Old 04-20-06, 12:05 AM
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This is the latest rage with the retard crowd...O&A have talked about it alot, basically debunking alot of it
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Old 04-20-06, 12:17 AM
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I'm just now watching a little of it. Seems like the same old (cooky, IMO) theories. There is some Hunter S. Thompson interviews though (for what that is worth).
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Old 04-20-06, 12:47 AM
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http://forum.dvdtalk.com/showthread.php?t=457338

It's a piece of crap that stoops to some embarrassing levels (the absolute lowest being the decision by the filmmaker to jump to the conclusion that the calls from the planes were faked based on some silly "science" and questionable data, therefore he begins to make fun of the victims' calls). It is filled with easily debunkable items and simply made-up "evidence", but conspiracy theorists continue to insist that if they make 50 claims and 40 are debunked, the lack of an answer for the remaining 10 means that it's true enough. And as you can see from the thread above, and from looking around the internet, there are people ready to eat this shit up.

A funny sidenote that I believe Groucho pointed out in the earlier thread: The film has been pretty much disowned by the "mainstream" 9-11 CT crowd.
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Old 04-20-06, 01:15 AM
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Just got done with it. The hardest thing I can swallow about most of these conspiracy theories (like the moon landing one) is the incredible size and number of people that would have to be in on it. I don't think people realize just how impossible it would be to get that many people to never say a word and cover their tracks so well.
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Old 04-20-06, 03:21 AM
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Well, I watched the flick and read the previous thread.

I really don't know what to think. I really wish I knew more about physics to get into the specifics of the jet fuel/fire/metal beams argument. Or more to the point, the ability to fly an aircraft that big that low with little to know experience. However, I find the "media blockout" of the hotel and gas station near the pentagon to be suspect. Why is that information not available?

Regarding Flight 93: The doc mentions one of the phone calls where the guy keeps asking his mother if she believes him. Is that legit? Also, as they point out in the doc, nowadays, it wouldn't surprise me to get a signal based on your carrier, but back in '91, would it be possible for so many people to be able to use their cellphones? Hell, I flew to Cali over the winter and my phone had no signal the entire time (T-Mobile).

I also saw in that other thread that the whole thing regarding the "stock market (I forgot what they called it on the doc)" was debunked. Could someone point out where/how?

Also, when did Snopes become the bastion of correct & truthful information. 7 times out of 10, when someone brought up a "conspiracy" that was mentioned in the flick, Snopes had the correct answer.

Or is it one of those "you'll believe what you choose or what suits your way of thinking" things?
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Old 04-20-06, 07:28 AM
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The stock market issue wasn't just debunked on Snopes (http://www.snopes.com/rumors/putcall.asp). Among their sources beyond market data was the 9-11 Commission, who, along with other agencies, investigated the claims and found them to be baseless.

For the most part, Snopes doesn't have a lot of 9-11 debunking, so I don't know how many things that could have been a response to. There are plenty of other sites with that info, but you have to dig through tons of returned searches with CT blogs spouting the same info over and over. Snopes is brought up often because it is easier to go there than to wade through everything else.

The cell phone issue: I don't find anything unusual about the cell phone calls. First of all, the doc never bothers to discuss how many calls were from air phones, not cell phones. Secondly, the science the doc uses to dismiss the idea of being able to get a signal in the air is based primarily on the notion that it is hard to get a signal at 37,000 feet. We don't know the altitude of the plane when the calls are made. I fly every week, and often forget to turn my phone off. You often can get a signal in the air, but usually prior or after being at cruising altitude.

"Do you believe me?" or "Hi mom, this is (first and last name)." Any number of things could explain why someone would say that (if that is true). In fact, it is easier for me to accept that those things were said legitimately than it is for me to believe that the government obtained a 10 minute voice sample from each of the passengers who called home, and used that to fake a few sentences. It's laughable. "But...but...they were able to do it with Colin Powell!!" I'm sure the filmmaker would rather not have a person think that one through.

For the physics arguments, the Popular Mechanics article does a better job in a couple of paragraphs of debunking each of the major claims than the doc does of making their case over several minutes each. The movie even shows the front page of the Popular Mechanics debunking issue to illustrate how the media ridicules the CT movement, but doesn't bother to address a single one of the points PM makes. But they're just looking for the truth, right?
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Old 04-20-06, 08:40 AM
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Any chance you remember about where in the film the HST interviews are in the film? I tried to watch this garbage once but couldn't get throught much of it.
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Old 04-20-06, 08:49 AM
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Originally Posted by Tommy Ceez
the retard crowd...O&A
Not the first time these words have been used together...

I'm surprised you haven't seen this one yet, dave. It's certainly made "the rounds"...
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Old 04-20-06, 09:01 AM
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Originally Posted by Mad Dawg
The stock market issue wasn't just debunked on Snopes (http://www.snopes.com/rumors/putcall.asp). Among their sources beyond market data was the 9-11 Commission, who, along with other agencies, investigated the claims and found them to be baseless.
The only thing debunked about the stock market issue was that terrorists and their organizations weren't involved in the unusual trading that took place a few days before 9/11.

It does NOT debunk the possibility that the people involved in those stock transactions had ties/links to people in the U.S. military and/or Intelligence agencies.
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Old 04-20-06, 10:23 AM
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Originally Posted by Rogue588
nowadays, it wouldn't surprise me to get a signal based on your carrier, but back in '91, would it be possible for so many people to be able to use their cellphones?
It hasn't been 15 years.
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Old 04-20-06, 10:26 AM
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loose_Change_(video)

THe bottom of this deals with some of the problems and talks about how it is generally not supported by the conspiracy crowd.

http://www.indybay.org/news/2005/12/1787340.php

This is from a clinical psychologist and medical examiner.

Ah, good skeptical forum discussing it. Also has links to the popular mechanics article. http://www.skepticforum.com/viewtopi...55f93fe8f5b0b2

Last edited by kvrdave; 04-20-06 at 10:36 AM.
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Old 04-20-06, 10:58 AM
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I've seen this Loose Change thing referred to on the Penn & Teller Bullshit Showtime Forum by conspiracy nuts reacting to their episode last year on conspiracy theories. I have declined to waste my time even looking at it.
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Old 04-20-06, 03:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Thor Simpson
It hasn't been 15 years.
I swear I typed "'01". I smell a conspiracy.

Originally Posted by Mad Dawg
The stock market issue wasn't just debunked on Snopes (http://www.snopes.com/rumors/putcall.asp). Among their sources beyond market data was the 9-11 Commission, who, along with other agencies, investigated the claims and found them to be baseless.

For the most part, Snopes doesn't have a lot of 9-11 debunking, so I don't know how many things that could have been a response to. There are plenty of other sites with that info, but you have to dig through tons of returned searches with CT blogs spouting the same info over and over. Snopes is brought up often because it is easier to go there than to wade through everything else.
It's a shame there isn't ONE website we could go to for the truth, huh?

Originally Posted by Mad Dawg
The cell phone issue: I don't find anything unusual about the cell phone calls. First of all, the doc never bothers to discuss how many calls were from air phones, not cell phones. Secondly, the science the doc uses to dismiss the idea of being able to get a signal in the air is based primarily on the notion that it is hard to get a signal at 37,000 feet. We don't know the altitude of the plane when the calls are made. I fly every week, and often forget to turn my phone off. You often can get a signal in the air, but usually prior or after being at cruising altitude.

"Do you believe me?" or "Hi mom, this is (first and last name)." Any number of things could explain why someone would say that (if that is true). In fact, it is easier for me to accept that those things were said legitimately than it is for me to believe that the government obtained a 10 minute voice sample from each of the passengers who called home, and used that to fake a few sentences. It's laughable. "But...but...they were able to do it with Colin Powell!!" I'm sure the filmmaker would rather not have a person think that one through.
If the flight recorders were recovered (can't remember which ones were), wouldn't that help with determining the altitude when the calls were made? Of course, if this was one of the flights they weren't recovered, that question is rendered moot. Also, yeah that whole voice duplication thing was pretty out there. However, i'm not so sure the technology doesn't exist.

For the physics arguments, the Popular Mechanics article does a better job in a couple of paragraphs of debunking each of the major claims than the doc does of making their case over several minutes each. The movie even shows the front page of the Popular Mechanics debunking issue to illustrate how the media ridicules the CT movement, but doesn't bother to address a single one of the points PM makes. But they're just looking for the truth, right?
Thanks for giving me some of the previously discussed answers/theories. Like you said "you have to dig through tons of returned searches"...and i've already spent more time doing that and following links than I should - THANKS GUYS
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Old 04-20-06, 04:02 PM
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Originally Posted by kvrdave
Just got done with it. The hardest thing I can swallow about most of these conspiracy theories (like the moon landing one) is the incredible size and number of people that would have to be in on it. I don't think people realize just how impossible it would be to get that many people to never say a word and cover their tracks so well.
Exactly. When I hear these "theories" I ask how did they get EVERYONE in on it and second how did they get everyone to keep their mouths shut?
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Old 04-20-06, 04:31 PM
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I still say the popularity of most conspiracy theories rests on their ability to hugely gratify the ego and psyche of the believers.


When you subscribe to a conspiracy theory:

1. You instantly become, comparatively speaking, smarter than, more perceptive than, and morally superior to the 99% of the population that doesn't believe in them.

2. You can, to some extent, divest yourself of responsibility for many crimes comitted by mainstream society or governments in general, since you have divorced yourself from their dishonest and/or misguided offical party line and explanations.

3. You can explain everything logically---these terrible acts and injustices are all planned, humans are in control, and if the conspiracy can be exposed, then these types of acts could be prevented in the future. I think it's a lot more comforting for many people to believe that, instead of dealing with the terrifying randomness, complexity and confusion of real life.

Anyways, that's my take, and I think those are some pretty powerful incentives for people to jump on board, whether or not the facts actually support the conspiracy theories.
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Old 04-20-06, 09:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Mad Dawg
and Dave actually posted in that thread...

I just wanted to post this though...
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Old 04-20-06, 11:33 PM
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I just wanted to say, great post Ky-Fi. The important thing for conspiracy theorists isn't finding "the truth" it's about constantly questioning the official version regardless of the facts.

In a recent documentary on the JFK assassination, they used computer simulation to show that the shots that killed Kennedy came from the schoolbook depository. They showed this evidence to a top conspiracy theorist, who reluctantly agreed that Oswald killed Kennedy. But he maintained that there were still other gunmen...it's just that they "missed."
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Old 04-21-06, 11:24 AM
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Originally Posted by Groucho
I just wanted to say, great post Ky-Fi. The important thing for conspiracy theorists isn't finding "the truth" it's about constantly questioning the official version regardless of the facts.
That's what they want you to believe.
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Old 04-21-06, 11:36 AM
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Originally Posted by crazyronin
and Dave actually posted in that thread...

I just wanted to post this though...

Weird, I don't even remember that thread.

Okay, let's let this stupid thread die a natural death.
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Old 04-21-06, 11:51 AM
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Originally Posted by CRM114
Exactly. When I hear these "theories" I ask how did they get EVERYONE in on it and second how did they get everyone to keep their mouths shut?

Just ask the L.A.P.D.

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Old 04-22-06, 05:34 PM
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The whole thing is pretty "out there". They really do like to twist facts to fit their own theories.

However, I would like to know more about the unusual stock trading on the days before 9/11. I don't doubt that there were some people who knew something was about to happen on that day, but it doesn't mean they were part of a large conspiracy by the government.

I remember an A&E documentary on 9/11 mentioned that some school kid predicted the attack on the towers to his teacher prior to it happening.
I also remember there was a post on a Nostradamus newsgroup a few days before referring to the number "911" and warning that a major event was to take place (or something like that).
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Old 04-25-06, 11:41 AM
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Originally Posted by Coral
The whole thing is pretty "out there". They really do like to twist facts to fit their own theories.

However, I would like to know more about the unusual stock trading on the days before 9/11. I don't doubt that there were some people who knew something was about to happen on that day, but it doesn't mean they were part of a large conspiracy by the government.
The "cover-up" of insider trading claims helps damage the case for huge conspiracy. If someone the government wishes to protect were behind the stock trading, why not blame terrorist networks or their allies? Why say that no evidence was found? If they are protecting that information, why not come up with a great story as Avery claims they did for much of the other actions that took place leading up to 9/11?

The simple truth is that it was investigated, in two cases immediately, by a number of agencies and commissions, and they couldn't find evidence that anyone was profiteering. Now, does that mean it didn't happen? Not at all, but to simply make the logic leap that the government or someone the government wishes to protect was behind it all is just silly (much like the rest of the logic in the film.)
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