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YACT: electric car owners, how much does it increase your electric bill?

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YACT: electric car owners, how much does it increase your electric bill?

Old 09-17-12, 07:57 AM
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YACT: electric car owners, how much does it increase your electric bill?

out of curiousity, how much does charging up your ride increase your electric bill?
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Old 09-17-12, 09:56 AM
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Re: YACT: electric car owners, how much does it increase your electric bill?

Duh, I live in a windmill with solar panels.
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Old 09-17-12, 09:59 AM
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Re: YACT: electric car owners, how much does it increase your electric bill?

If you do like most people, who charge their phones and whatnot at other places, it won't raise your bill at all.
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Old 09-17-12, 10:14 AM
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Re: YACT: electric car owners, how much does it increase your electric bill?

I think nickdawgy's head is about to explode.
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Old 09-17-12, 12:19 PM
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Re: YACT: electric car owners, how much does it increase your electric bill?

http://www.pluginamerica.org/faq/gen...estion#t39n102

How much does it cost to charge a plug-in vehicle?

Much less than it costs to buy gasoline. Exactly how much will vary depending on the vehicle and electricity rates. On average, it will be less than $1 to charge a plug-in hybrid and $2-$4 for an all-electric car. Your overall energy bill will be lowered by driving with electricity. EVs are so efficient that the cost per mile driven is significantly less than with a gasoline-powered car. For instance, a 2002 Toyota RAV4 will travel 100 miles on 4 gallons of gasoline. At $2.50/gallon, this is $10.00. A 2002 Toyota RAV4-EV will travel 100 miles on 30 kWh of electricity. At 10 cents per kWh, this is $3.00.
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Old 09-17-12, 12:27 PM
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Re: YACT: electric car owners, how much does it increase your electric bill?

Originally Posted by orangerory View Post
http://www.pluginamerica.org/faq/gen...estion#t39n102

How much does it cost to charge a plug-in vehicle?

Much less than it costs to buy gasoline. Exactly how much will vary depending on the vehicle and electricity rates. On average, it will be less than $1 to charge a plug-in hybrid and $2-$4 for an all-electric car. Your overall energy bill will be lowered by driving with electricity. EVs are so efficient that the cost per mile driven is significantly less than with a gasoline-powered car. For instance, a 2002 Toyota RAV4 will travel 100 miles on 4 gallons of gasoline. At $2.50/gallon, this is $10.00. A 2002 Toyota RAV4-EV will travel 100 miles on 30 kWh of electricity. At 10 cents per kWh, this is $3.00.
How much more does the RAV4-EV cost than the RAV4?
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Old 09-17-12, 12:30 PM
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Re: YACT: electric car owners, how much does it increase your electric bill?

Originally Posted by orangerory View Post
http://www.pluginamerica.org/faq/gen...estion#t39n102

How much does it cost to charge a plug-in vehicle?

Much less than it costs to buy gasoline. Exactly how much will vary depending on the vehicle and electricity rates. On average, it will be less than $1 to charge a plug-in hybrid and $2-$4 for an all-electric car. Your overall energy bill will be lowered by driving with electricity. EVs are so efficient that the cost per mile driven is significantly less than with a gasoline-powered car. For instance, a 2002 Toyota RAV4 will travel 100 miles on 4 gallons of gasoline. At $2.50/gallon, this is $10.00. A 2002 Toyota RAV4-EV will travel 100 miles on 30 kWh of electricity. At 10 cents per kWh, this is $3.00.
I want to know where you get your gas!
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Old 09-17-12, 12:33 PM
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Re: YACT: electric car owners, how much does it increase your electric bill?

Originally Posted by X View Post
How much more does the RAV4-EV cost than the RAV4?
I think I just answered my own question..

RAV4: $22,650
RAV4-EV: $49,800

It's going to take a while to really save any money.
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Old 09-17-12, 01:00 PM
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Re: YACT: electric car owners, how much does it increase your electric bill?

Originally Posted by DirkUSA View Post
I want to know where you get your gas!

The question isn't where the hell they get their gas, it's WHEN the hell they get their gas!!
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Old 09-17-12, 01:14 PM
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Re: YACT: electric car owners, how much does it increase your electric bill?

Originally Posted by X View Post
I think I just answered my own question..

RAV4: $22,650
RAV4-EV: $49,800

It's going to take a while to really save any money.
Yes, plugging in more realistic fuel costs ($4.10/ gallon, $0.14 kWh), it will take 222,541 miles to break even. Then you will save $0.122 per mile until the battery dies.

Add to that, the gasoline fuel tank holds more than 4 gallons and can be refueled in 5 minutes or less. For the electric, that 30 kWh is all you've got and it takes hours to "refuel." If you drive less than the range each day and recharge all night, no problem. On a long trip, BIG problem.
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Old 09-17-12, 02:09 PM
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Re: YACT: electric car owners, how much does it increase your electric bill?

Originally Posted by X View Post
I think I just answered my own question..

RAV4: $22,650
RAV4-EV: $49,800

It's going to take a while to really save any money.
Or you could look at the actual cost of buying one back in 2002:
The MSRP was US$42,000; but in California, ZIP-grant rebates of US$9,000, decreasing in 2003 to US$5,000, and a US$4,000 credit from the Internal Revenue Service brought the price down to a more palatable US$29,000 (US$33,000 for some 2003 deliveries), including the home charger.
I didn't recalculate everything, but assumed that OldDude's savings of $0.122 per mile was accurate. Your break even point at that level is now 84,836 miles in 2003 and just 52,049 miles if you bought in 2002. Not that unreasonable and a break even point of between 4-8 years for most drivers. Of course no one actually bought a RAV4-EV so this exercise is kind of silly. I assume the Volt and others of their ilk also perform better with 10 years of improved technology, but I suppose I could be wrong on that.
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Old 09-17-12, 02:27 PM
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Re: YACT: electric car owners, how much does it increase your electric bill?

After how many miles would you have to replace the battery and how much would one cost? How much more are the maintance costs on one? I get my car fixed by "a guy I know", I doubt there are many "guys" who can fix an electric car.
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Old 09-17-12, 02:30 PM
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Re: YACT: electric car owners, how much does it increase your electric bill?

Originally Posted by Mordred View Post
Or you could look at the actual cost of buying one back in 2002:

I didn't recalculate everything, but assumed that OldDude's savings of $0.122 per mile was accurate. Your break even point at that level is now 84,836 miles in 2003 and just 52,049 miles if you bought in 2002. Not that unreasonable and a break even point of between 4-8 years for most drivers. Of course no one actually bought a RAV4-EV so this exercise is kind of silly. I assume the Volt and others of their ilk also perform better with 10 years of improved technology, but I suppose I could be wrong on that.
Well, the real cost to society was $42000, but the government was so hot to trot that it compelled the rest of us taxpayers to chip in and help him buy it. Those rebates and credits aren't free money. The rest of us pay for them and can't afford any new car, moreless an electric one as a result.
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Old 09-17-12, 02:35 PM
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Re: YACT: electric car owners, how much does it increase your electric bill?

Originally Posted by DeputyDave View Post
After how many miles would you have to replace the battery and how much would one cost? How much more are the maintance costs on one? I get my car fixed by "a guy I know", I doubt there are many "guys" who can fix an electric car.
I don't think anyone knows yet, and it depends partially on how you use it. However, most companies are giving a 100 Kmile warranty (I'm not sure if that is full replacement or prorated like a tire).

(I'm a little dubious you can go the 200+ Kmile breakeven I calculated above on the original battery. I think the battery accounts for most of the premium over the base car, ie $10000-20000, and a lot more than a replacement engine.)
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Old 09-17-12, 02:43 PM
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Re: YACT: electric car owners, how much does it increase your electric bill?

Actually, I figured out what X did. The original thing he posted was referencing the 2002 RAV4-EV. He then quoted prices for the 2012 base RAV4 and the RAV4-EV, which is already an unfair comparison because the RAV4-EV comes fully loaded at that price (I'm not seeing any real options other than cosmetic stuff and netting for the trunk) and you'd have to special order a base RAV4 at that price because no dealership would carry one completely empty.

Due to the capacity of its battery pack the RAV4 EV qualifies for the maximum US$7,500 federal tax credit and also eligible for a US$2,500 rebate in California.
So your price for the RAV4-EV is actually $39,800 which is still exorbitantly expensive compared to the base. The cheapest RAV4 I could find at my local dealership was $24,239, so put the difference at $15,661.

Old-dude's figures were based off the 2002 numbers, so lets look at 2012. The RAV4 gets 24 mpg combined, while the RAV4-EV gets 76 and has a range of 103 miles.

The battery has a capacity of 41.8 kWh so at $0.14 kWH it takes $5.85 to charge for each 113 miles. The regular EV takes 4.29 gallons to go 113 miles and at $4.10 that's $19.30 for the same trip. That equals a savings of $0.119 per mile.

$15,661 / $0.119 = 131,605 miles which is still pretty significant. Of course you have two completely differently appointed cars. I think a more accurate comparison is a more loaded RAV4 (options seem similar between the two) at $28,634 for a difference of $11,166 which would take 93,831 miles. Still a fair gamble there, but probably not ridiculous... especially if you think gas prices will keep going up. Unfortunately your resale value will suck unless you luck out and the battery dies at under 100k miles and you can get it replaced under warranty.

And that's today's episode of Math with Mordred. Join us next week when we calculate the air displaced by a hummingbird's wings over its lifetime.

Edit: read a bit more about max range and battery usage and adjusted figures accordingly.

Last edited by Mordred; 09-17-12 at 02:54 PM.
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Old 09-17-12, 02:45 PM
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Re: YACT: electric car owners, how much does it increase your electric bill?

Originally Posted by DeputyDave View Post
After how many miles would you have to replace the battery and how much would one cost? How much more are the maintance costs on one? I get my car fixed by "a guy I know", I doubt there are many "guys" who can fix an electric car.
Batteries cost an insane amount (probably 8-10k) and once they go, you can only replace them. Warranties for batteries are getting better, but if you have your car longer than 12 years you'd probably need to replace it. There are no real maintenance costs other than getting your breaks regularly serviced. No oil changes, no moving parts, no belts, no spark plugs, etc.. They are pretty awesome in that regard.
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Old 09-17-12, 04:08 PM
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Re: YACT: electric car owners, how much does it increase your electric bill?

The "estimated" cost of the electricity used to recharge in these scenarios is way too low. Most folks are on a tiered system, mine starts at 14 cents per kwh and rapidilly escalates to 33 cents. Also, that does not included "distribution" which adds 15 to 17 cents more per kwh. So, to be more realistic, the savings per mile would be significantly less (probably "only" around 5 cents) once you properly account for the fact that charging the electric car will put your average electrictity consumption much higher per month (put you in a much higher 'tier') and adding in distribution costs.
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Old 09-17-12, 05:07 PM
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Re: YACT: electric car owners, how much does it increase your electric bill?

The APR for borrowers should be 1.9% (for example) across the board, even if the borrowers have bad credit. Because if not, the higher APR kills the deal, and let's face it, the people with less-than-perfect credit scores probably need the vehicles as a better exposure for the common citizen. What's the point of having a few vehicles on the road, when they're locked up in a 3-car garage way up and far away from most people, all safe and secure. Where nobody even sees them.

So, when you look at the $7,500 tax credit, it will quickly dissolve if a person can't get a good APR. A $50K vehicle financed will rape you in the ass.

So, I think for an effective influence on American behavior, you would not only give a federal tax credit, but also mandate the banks give the same APR--call it Green APR--for anyone who technically qualifies to lease or purchase a vehicle like this.

Also, this tax credit, while nice, may not apply to most families who would want it anyway due to their income level. That's another issue I just realized.
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Old 09-17-12, 05:23 PM
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Re: YACT: electric car owners, how much does it increase your electric bill?

Originally Posted by zyzzle View Post
The "estimated" cost of the electricity used to recharge in these scenarios is way too low. Most folks are on a tiered system, mine starts at 14 cents per kwh and rapidilly escalates to 33 cents. Also, that does not included "distribution" which adds 15 to 17 cents more per kwh. So, to be more realistic, the savings per mile would be significantly less (probably "only" around 5 cents) once you properly account for the fact that charging the electric car will put your average electrictity consumption much higher per month (put you in a much higher 'tier') and adding in distribution costs.
That's a good point. I have no idea how you'd quantify/effectively calculate that though. I also know a lot of places have off-peak, reduced charging prices and the chargers for these cars are usually set on a timer to charge in off-peak hours accordingly. Here in Texas there's even one utility (TXU) that is offering free electricity at night which would be amazing if you could buy one of the damn things outside California.

Originally Posted by DVD Polizei View Post
Also, this tax credit, while nice, may not apply to most families who would want it anyway due to their income level. That's another issue I just realized.
Given the price of the automobile, I'd find that very unlikely.
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Old 09-17-12, 06:52 PM
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Re: YACT: electric car owners, how much does it increase your electric bill?

I read that there's barely a savings. Except on pollution and stuff. I got a place for you to park your damn hippie cars - you hard working, educated elitist snobs! I'm gonna go punch a tree.
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Old 09-17-12, 08:02 PM
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Re: YACT: electric car owners, how much does it increase your electric bill?

Originally Posted by Mordred View Post
Actually, I figured out what X did. The original thing he posted was referencing the 2002 RAV4-EV. He then quoted prices for the 2012 base RAV4 and the RAV4-EV, which is already an unfair comparison because the RAV4-EV comes fully loaded at that price (I'm not seeing any real options other than cosmetic stuff and netting for the trunk) and you'd have to special order a base RAV4 at that price because no dealership would carry one completely empty.
I just went to the manufacturer's site and got their MSRP for the current base models. I didn't compare options.
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Old 09-17-12, 08:24 PM
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Re: YACT: electric car owners, how much does it increase your electric bill?

A more important question is how much those batteries will cost to replace in a few years. We all know rechargeable battery technology is good...but still problematic.
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Old 09-17-12, 08:28 PM
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Re: YACT: electric car owners, how much does it increase your electric bill?

I have read in my local paper the electric companys wanted to charge people extra that had electric cars and if you had a solar panel thing they were going to charge you 60.00 a month for stand-by electric power. I do not remember actually hearing they went through with it. I guess it was about a year ago or so.
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Old 09-17-12, 08:34 PM
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Re: YACT: electric car owners, how much does it increase your electric bill?

Originally Posted by Giantrobo View Post
A more important question is how much those batteries will cost to replace in a few years. We all know rechargeable battery technology is good...but still problematic.
I have to wonder if we'll see these in used car lots with a battery needing replaced. That would really suck for a person who "found a deal" on an electric vehicle.
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Old 09-17-12, 08:36 PM
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Re: YACT: electric car owners, how much does it increase your electric bill?

Originally Posted by Mordred View Post
Batteries cost an insane amount (probably 8-10k) and once they go, you can only replace them. Warranties for batteries are getting better, but if you have your car longer than 12 years you'd probably need to replace it. There are no real maintenance costs other than getting your breaks regularly serviced. No oil changes, no moving parts, no belts, no spark plugs, etc.. They are pretty awesome in that regard.
That is excellent that they were able to eliminate the motors, wheels and bearings. Perhaps they utilize frictionless components where they can as well.
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