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I have a Bible question (poll)

Other Talk "Otterville"
View Poll Results: How did God know Apostle Peter would cave in?
Predestination
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Free Will With Precognition
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A Comment on Human Nature
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A Really Good Guess (i.e. twikoff)
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Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 60. You may not vote on this poll

I have a Bible question (poll)

Old 04-07-07, 04:16 PM
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I have a Bible question (poll)

First off I ain’t persecutin’ he’a. Merely playin’. I love civil discussions on religion. (Despite my past.)

That part where Jesus predicted that one of the apostles would deny him three times before the cock crowed (and then Peter goes and drops the ball) got stuck in my craw the other day.

Was it that God knew that Peter’s life was mapped out and decided to clue him in on a tidbit just to freak him out? (1st choice)

Was it that God lives outside of time and space so that, while Peter had free will and did what he did of his own accord, God had already seen the movie? (2nd choice)

Was it a parable on the fact that someone will privately believe fervently in something and then, when faced with an inconvenience (like being tortured to death), do a 180? (3rd choice)

Or was it that the odds were with Him that day (like in Job)? (twikoff)

I am not voting. I have no idea. I wanted to hear others'

P.S. I did vote. I forgot I wouldn't see the results unless I did. Deduct one twikoff for a fair election.

Last edited by Kudama; 04-07-07 at 06:08 PM.
Old 04-07-07, 04:22 PM
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Because god is omniscient.
Old 04-07-07, 04:34 PM
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JC won Randi's $1,000,000. Or it didn't happen. I forget which.
Old 04-07-07, 04:42 PM
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Jesus warned him over and over again that he and all the other apostles would abandon him. He knew what events would unfold to allow him to die.
Old 04-07-07, 04:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Save Ferris
Jesus warned him over and over again that he and all the other apostles would abandon him. He knew what events would unfold to allow him to die.
This is intriguing. Is God exempt from the mortal sin of suicide?
Old 04-07-07, 04:57 PM
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There is no free will. It is already all mapped out, due to his almighty plan.
Old 04-07-07, 04:59 PM
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Originally Posted by LivingINClip
There is no free will. It is already all mapped out, due to his almighty plan.
Jesus: There is no free will, it is already all mapped out, due to My almighty plan.

Peter: Oh, wiseguy, eh? (pokes Jesus in the eyes with both fingers) Weren't expecting that, were you?

Jesus: Why I oughta...

Judas: Nyuk nyuk nyuk!
Old 04-07-07, 05:00 PM
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he tunred himself in to the authorities--Technically it isnt suicide.

Him being a sacrifice for man was in the plan though im not sure it counts as suicide. The 'sin' of suicide is kind of a stretch. Is suicide really a sin?
Old 04-07-07, 05:13 PM
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The use of the word "technically" opens whole new avenues.
And I'm "led" to believe that blasphemy and suicide are the only things that are unforgivable.

-and pretty much everything beside breathing is a sin.
Old 04-07-07, 05:15 PM
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nope. just looked it up. 'suicide' or 'killing yourself' isnt in the bible.

Originally Posted by Kudama
pretty much everything beside breathing is a sin.
my what research youve done!
Old 04-07-07, 05:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Save Ferris
nope. just looked it up. 'suicide' or 'killing yourself' isnt in the bible.
Oh no you DIN'T! (did you Google it?) Anyway, maybe that's just a Catholic thing, but I heard that before I saw Constantine.

The breathing thing was referring to the word that all humans are born with sin and can't avoid it. Sort of a joke.

Honestly, though. I really want to hear more about the opinions on that particular part (the denial prediction). The discussions on this genre spin out of control quickly.

Last edited by Kudama; 04-07-07 at 05:29 PM.
Old 04-07-07, 05:29 PM
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lol i googled a bible search engine thing. the WORDS suicide or phrase "kill yourself/himself" arent in the bible so i dont know who would say its a sin. who knows. im sure its probably not recommended lol.
Old 04-07-07, 05:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Save Ferris
im sure its probably not recommended lol.


Void in cases of Planet Terror type disease.
Old 04-07-07, 05:39 PM
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Originally Posted by leest3
Because god is omniscient.
Ditto. Choice #2.
Old 04-07-07, 08:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Kudama
First off I ain’t persecutin’ he’a. Merely playin’. I love civil discussions on religion. (Despite my past.)

That part where Jesus predicted that one of the apostles would deny him three times before the cock crowed (and then Peter goes and drops the ball) got stuck in my craw the other day.

Was it that God knew that Peter’s life was mapped out and decided to clue him in on a tidbit just to freak him out? (1st choice)

Was it that God lives outside of time and space so that, while Peter had free will and did what he did of his own accord, God had already seen the movie? (2nd choice)

Was it a parable on the fact that someone will privately believe fervently in something and then, when faced with an inconvenience (like being tortured to death), do a 180? (3rd choice)

Or was it that the odds were with Him that day (like in Job)? (twikoff)

I am not voting. I have no idea. I wanted to hear others'

P.S. I did vote. I forgot I wouldn't see the results unless I did. Deduct one twikoff for a fair election.
It is not a simple question with no simple answer.
reminds me of the movie The Matrix when the Oracle is talking to Neo and says to him - do no worry about the vase and he turns around and breaks it. She says something like would you have broken it if I had not told you.

1st. We all have free will. Our life is up to us, our future is up to us.
2nd. God is the Alpha and the Omega. The beginning and the end and everything in between. He is the All-knowing.
If you are going to do something in the future, He knows, but He also knows that we have the power to change our destiny.
The moment our destiny changes, He knows.
God knew what Peter was going to do and God knew that Peter, even in knowing his future, was not about to change. I hope this make sense.
Old 04-07-07, 08:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Kudama
The use of the word "technically" opens whole new avenues.
And I'm "led" to believe that blasphemy and suicide are the only things that are unforgivable.

-and pretty much everything beside breathing is a sin.
Only one sin is unforgivable, refusing to accept Jesus Christ as your savior.
why you might ask?
because Jesus Christ is the only way to God, if you do not accept Jesus as your savior, there is no other way you can be saved.
How about suicide then? well, if you commit suicide, you are refusing Jesus Christ as your savior.
Old 04-07-07, 08:40 PM
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Originally Posted by montecristo
Only one sin is unforgivable, refusing to accept Jesus Christ as your savior,
No one else here has heard the blasphemy/suicide thing??? Are you guys fucking with me?

Plus...what about the denial thing. To add a new dimension, what if it was Trump armed with a tazer that was askin'? (Yes, he's dressed as a Roman.)
Old 04-07-07, 11:41 PM
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Peter was a rabbit. They always cave in. That's why they live in holes in the ground.
Old 04-08-07, 01:05 AM
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All right. I deserved that after my last tryin' to be funny in a completely obscure way.

I guess I already have a clearer idea of the spirit of those passages from what other believers have posted. I really thought it would open up more speculation than it did. I hope you guys noticed I picked the multiple votes option on the poll, recognizing that the issue is not cut and dry.
Old 04-08-07, 01:09 AM
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Originally Posted by Kudama
No one else here has heard the blasphemy/suicide thing??? Are you guys fucking with me?
The suicide thing is a Catholic thing. I have a "Catholic" timeline somewhere that shows when a lot of the odd things came into being (like wearing robes, not allowing priests to marry, etc.)

The blasphemy thing is probably "blasphemy of the Holy Spirit" if I am following you. It probably isn't what you think it is.
Old 04-08-07, 01:13 AM
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Nice. Thanks, Dave. (Is that time line on line. I'd be curious to browse it. The Catholic religion fascinates me because it blends "old School" religion and secular compromise so much.)

BTW Off to kill myself now that it's all good! .... (That wasn't in bad taste, was it? )

Also: when did you become VP? Please push to have tobacco legalized in Otterville. I'm a voter, dammit!

Last edited by Kudama; 04-08-07 at 01:27 AM.
Old 04-08-07, 06:03 AM
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Suicide is a sin for many reasons, not least because it breaks the commandment: "you shall not kill." Regarding forgiveness, the problem with suicide is that the person committing the sin does not generally get a chance to repent so that they can be forgiven! I should think though that there would be circumstances were it was forgiveable, e.g. in cases of insanity.

Here is what the Catechism of the Catholic Church says about suicide:

Suicide

2280 Everyone is responsible for his life before God who has given it to him.
It is God who remains the sovereign Master of life.
We are obliged to accept life gratefully and preserve it for his honor and the salvation of our souls.
We are stewards, not owners, of the life God has entrusted to us.
It is not ours to dispose of.

2281 Suicide contradicts the natural inclination of the human being to preserve and perpetuate his life.
It is gravely contrary to the just love of self.
It likewise offends love of neighbor because it unjustly breaks the ties of solidarity with family, nation, and other human societies to which we continue to have obligations.
Suicide is contrary to love for the living God.

2282 If suicide is committed with the intention of setting an example, especially to the young, it also takes on the gravity of scandal.
Voluntary co-operation in suicide is contrary to the moral law.
Grave psychological disturbances, anguish, or grave fear of hardship, suffering, or torture can diminish the responsibility of the one committing suicide.

2283 We should not despair of the eternal salvation of persons who have taken their own lives. By ways known to him alone, God can provide the opportunity for salutary repentance. the Church prays for persons who have taken their own lives.
http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P7Z.HTM


As for blasphemy being unforgivable, as kvrdave says, it's blasphemy against the Holy Spirit in particular that is considered to be "unforgivable." But what this means, I'm unsure. Some explanation can be found here in section VIII (Sins against the Holy Ghost): http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07409a.htm

Last edited by Squirrel God; 04-08-07 at 06:17 AM.
Old 04-08-07, 09:20 AM
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I voted "comment on human nature" because the story of Jesus is not meant to be a history, but a spiritual tale.

On the side issue of suicide as a sin, the only suicide that is a sin is the "nobody loves me, I'm going to make them sorry" kind. It is a denial of god's love, and refusal to accept his help in improving one's life.
Old 04-08-07, 11:01 AM
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if suicide doesn't give someone a chance to repent, what about someone who has sinned doing something else and dies in a head-on collision on the way home from work? do they get a chance to confess of their sins, too? if a sin is a sin is a sin, then this argument isn't valid.

what about this: once you accept Christ into your heart, repent, yada yada, aren't you inherently "forgiven" ? I don't believe you need to keep repenting to still receive Christ's forgiveness. In other words, you can't "lose" your salvation.

I don't normally get involved in the JC covos, so hopefully I am staying on topic here...
Old 04-08-07, 11:08 AM
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I call shenanigans on it actually happening the way it's written. Like most stuff in the bible, it probably didn't occur.

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