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-   -   Immunizing Children - Should it Still be Done? (https://forum.dvdtalk.com/other-talk/443135-immunizing-children-should-still-done.html)

Groucho 07-18-06 10:31 AM


Originally Posted by gmather
I'm not advocating the cessation of immunizations, merely that people need to be aware of potential side-effects, whether it be autism or some other ailment.

Whenever I've gotten immunizations for my kids, it's been accompanied by a pamphlet laying out the potential side-effects. Autism is not included (nor should it be).

xmiyux 07-18-06 10:35 AM

As for the autism debate i think the increased risk factors for this are probably more environmental pollution type issues than the vaccinations. The "clustering" of high rates of autism is many times in areas of high pollution. For instance in the Mid Ohio Valley (between WV and Ohio where i grew up) there is one of the highest concentration of chemical plants in the US and with those plants comes higher levels of pollution and we also see higher rates of autism.

The Bus 07-18-06 10:53 AM


Originally Posted by Jadzia
When they dramatically ramped up the vaccination schedule in the late 80's/early 90's is when autism really became the epidemic that is now (1 in 166 kids now which is insane!)

I blame cable TV. Debate if its causation or correlation or whatever but that is just too coincidental for me and backs up many of my common sense instincts about how the body processes endless streams of high quality programming.

movielib 07-18-06 11:17 AM


Originally Posted by xmiyux
As for the autism debate i think the increased risk factors for this are probably more environmental pollution type issues than the vaccinations. The "clustering" of high rates of autism is many times in areas of high pollution. For instance in the Mid Ohio Valley (between WV and Ohio where i grew up) there is one of the highest concentration of chemical plants in the US and with those plants comes higher levels of pollution and we also see higher rates of autism.

However, pollution has decreased greatly in the last few decades, both overall in the U.S. and in virtually every local area too. Yet autism is supposedly increasing.

Correlation doesn't equal causation, much less reverse correlation.

Do you have any evidence that autism consistently clusters in areas of higher pollution? Or what one (or more than one) specific substance may be responsible? Even clusters are not very good evidence as there are many other possible causes for clusters ranging from genetics (such as large groups of people of a nationality - with more common characteristics than the general population - living close together) to blind chance. In fact chance almost decrees that there will be clusters. If you flip a coin a million times there will likely be stretches where there are a lot more heads or tails even though the overall outcome will be very close to 50/50.

Consider if you flip that coin a million times, how many times would you get at least ten heads in a row? Well, with each flip you could get a heads (1/2 chance, of course). So each flip would start you off with a 1/2^10 chance it could lead to 10 in a row, or one out of 1,024. That gives you 999,991 starts at 1,023:1 each (you can't do it by starting in the last nine). That tells me that by the odds you'll get about 976 stretches of 10 heads in a row (and the same for ten tails in a row). Do these "clusters" mean the coin is "loaded"? No, it's pure chance.

Now if higher rates of autism were correlated with higher pollution sometimes and with lower pollution in other instances I'd say there's not much to look at. Probably just chance. If higher rates of autism were correlated almost all the time with higher rates of pollution, there'd be something to look at although it could still be other factors. Which is why I asked if you had any evidence that such correlation is consistent.

xmiyux 07-18-06 11:26 AM


Originally Posted by movielib
However, pollution has decreased greatly in the last few decades, both overall in the U.S. and in virtually every local area too. Yet autism is supposedly increasing.

Correlation doesn't equal causation, much less reverse correlation.

Do you have any evidence that autism consistently clusters in areas of higher pollution? Or what one (or more than one) specific substance may be responsible? Even clusters are not very good evidence as there are many other possible causes for clusters ranging from genetics (such as large groups of people of a nationality - with more common characteristics than the general population - living close together) to blind chance. In fact chance almost decrees that there will be clusters. If you flip a coin a million times there will likely be stretches where there are a lot more heads or tails even though the overall outcome will be very close to 50/50.

Absolutely and i will agree there hasn't been adequate research to indicate causation. That i why i was merely saying "i think" based on some small studies that showed some correlation - i wouldn't even begin to claim that is the case. The reason i mentioned it in this thread is that even the weak case for autism being "caused" by pollution has more positive research (and this research doesn't even begin to say caused it merely that there may be a correlation) and yet there is more research for this than for vaccines being a cause. So movielib isn't getting any disagreement from me.

tbird2340 07-18-06 01:24 PM


Originally Posted by xmiyux
For instance in the Mid Ohio Valley (between WV and Ohio where i grew up) there is one of the highest concentration of chemical plants in the US and with those plants comes higher levels of pollution and we also see higher rates of autism.

That also explains my 7 toes on my right foot..

Rockmjd23 07-18-06 06:27 PM


Originally Posted by Jadzia
When they dramatically ramped up the vaccination schedule in the late 80's/early 90's is when autism really became the epidemic that is now (1 in 166 kids now which is insane!


Originally Posted by The Bus
I blame cable TV. Debate if its causation or correlation or whatever but that is just too coincidental for me and backs up many of my common sense instincts about how the body processes endless streams of high quality programming.

Wait...late 80s/early 90s? The cause is Saved by the Bell.

Altimus Prime 02-09-07 01:26 PM

Your child should be fully immunized.

People have forgotten the value of immunizations because of how long they have been required, and forgetting what it was like before they existed.

Also, your child will be required to be immunized to be admitted to school.

Duran 05-03-07 07:07 PM


Originally Posted by http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20070503/hl_afp/canadahealthautism_070503210131
MONTREAL (AFP) - Mercury levels have no relationship to the development of autism, a developmental disorder whose cause remains unclear, according to a Canadian study published Thursday.

"In recent years, hypotheses have been raised concerning a possible relationship between mercury exposure and autism," said Eric Fombonne, head researcher and director of pediatric psychiatry at the Montreal Children's Hospital.

"Specifically, the concerns have been related to childhood thimerosal-containing vaccines, dental amalgams, and methylmercury in food," he said in a statement.

The research team examined mercury levels in hair and blood samples provided by autistic children and their mothers and concluded that the levels observed did not differ largely from those taken from children without autism.

The study also "demonstrated that there was no correlation between the mercury level and the severity of symptoms and level of functioning of autistic children."

Children with autism, a growing developmental concern which appears before age three, often avoid physical contact and communicate with gestures rather than speech.

A February study by the US Centers for Disease Control and Prevention suggested that autism is more common in the United States than previously believed, affecting one child in 150.

The Canadian study was performed on 71 autistic children and 75 children without the disorder.

Fombonne said the study's findings also implied that "chelation therapies, whereby heavy metals are removed from the body using specific compounds, are not useful in the treatment of autism."


porieux 05-03-07 07:28 PM

Mercury is highly toxic. All the pharmaceutical industry propaganda in the world is not going to change that.

mikehunt 05-03-07 07:30 PM

something tells me that many of the kids diagnosed as autistic today would not have been using the standards of 10-15 years ago

bwvanh114 05-03-07 07:55 PM


Originally Posted by porieux
Mercury is highly toxic. All the pharmaceutical industry propaganda in the world is not going to change that.

Okay then. Witches are evil. All the science propaganda in the world is not going to change that.

porieux 05-03-07 08:01 PM


Originally Posted by bwvanh114
Okay then. Witches are evil. All the science propaganda in the world is not going to change that.

Uh, ok. Go eat some mercury and let us know how it goes.

bwvanh114 05-03-07 08:14 PM


Originally Posted by porieux
Uh, ok. Go eat some mercury and let us know how it goes.

What does eating mercury have to do with mercury in vaccines? More specifically, what does eating mercury have to do with whether or not trace concentrations of mercury causes Autism?

Tell you what, just answer this instead: Why do you disagree with the findings in the article posted above your post? (and I need specifics, "omg, because Mercury is bad, lol." won't cut it).

Janai 05-03-07 09:28 PM

Well I am 36 and went to Africa. I had to get 6 shots before I went over there. I wouldn't even be able to get back into the US without the yellow fever shot.
I had all my shots when I was young. Of course I didn't have as many as they do now, but they sure made up for it when i went over seas.
And I wish they would have had the chicken pox shot when I was young. Having shingles sucks. If you had chicken pox you will always have it in your system. You just pray it never reactivates.
I have seen other countries that don't do any immunization. Believe me it sometimes is sad. Most children are so sick. Some are lucky to even make it. And to think that just giving shots would stop most of that.

Duran 05-03-07 09:39 PM


Originally Posted by porieux
Mercury is highly toxic. All the pharmaceutical industry propaganda in the world is not going to change that.

Have a citation that the study I cited is pharmaceutical industry propaganda?

al_bundy 05-03-07 09:55 PM


Originally Posted by porieux
Uh, ok. Go eat some mercury and let us know how it goes.

do you eat fish?

kvrdave 05-04-07 12:00 AM


Originally Posted by porieux
Mercury is highly toxic. All the pharmaceutical industry propaganda in the world is not going to change that.

Leeching will remove the bad blood from sick people, and all the pharmaceutical industry propaganda in the world is not going to change that. They just don't like the idea that they can't make money off my own leeches.


There are lots of highly toxic things that your body handles just fine so long as you don't eat a bunch of it to prove some silly point. Flourine would be one of those (though you would have to inhale it).

porieux 05-04-07 05:57 AM

Funny how desperate you guys are to want to believe it. Fine go for it.

Duran 05-04-07 06:03 AM


Originally Posted by porieux
Funny how desperate you guys are to want to believe it. Fine go for it.

Well, case closed! Your highly persuasive argument has convinced me!

Vaccines save lives.

movielib 05-04-07 07:22 AM


Originally Posted by Duran

Originally Posted by http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20070503...m_070503210131
MONTREAL (AFP) - Mercury levels have no relationship to the development of autism, a developmental disorder whose cause remains unclear, according to a Canadian study published Thursday.

"In recent years, hypotheses have been raised concerning a possible relationship between mercury exposure and autism," said Eric Fombonne, head researcher and director of pediatric psychiatry at the Montreal Children's Hospital.

"Specifically, the concerns have been related to childhood thimerosal-containing vaccines, dental amalgams, and methylmercury in food," he said in a statement.

The research team examined mercury levels in hair and blood samples provided by autistic children and their mothers and concluded that the levels observed did not differ largely from those taken from children without autism.

The study also "demonstrated that there was no correlation between the mercury level and the severity of symptoms and level of functioning of autistic children."

Children with autism, a growing developmental concern which appears before age three, often avoid physical contact and communicate with gestures rather than speech.

A February study by the US Centers for Disease Control and Prevention suggested that autism is more common in the United States than previously believed, affecting one child in 150.

The Canadian study was performed on 71 autistic children and 75 children without the disorder.

Fombonne said the study's findings also implied that "chelation therapies, whereby heavy metals are removed from the body using specific compounds, are not useful in the treatment of autism."

And that is about the umpteen thousandth study that has exonerated mercury in the levels found in vaccines and amalgam fillings. But don't expect the True Believers to ever accept it.

Their reasoning is that if something is harmful in high doses it is harmful in any dose. They never got the memo about the sound scientific principle that "the dose makes the poison" and if they did they would call it pharmaceutical company propaganda.

Tracer Bullet 05-04-07 10:06 AM


Originally Posted by mikehunt
something tells me that many of the kids diagnosed as autistic today would not have been using the standards of 10-15 years ago

That is true. Asperger's Syndrome, for example, was barely diagnosed in the past.

kvrdave 05-04-07 10:07 AM


Originally Posted by porieux
Funny how desperate you guys are to want to believe it. Fine go for it.

It would seem that the person who dismisses the science may be a wee bit more desperate to believe something.

Jadzia 05-04-07 12:24 PM

I can't tell without seeing the actual study, but if Dr. Fombonne was assuming that autistic children's bodies process mercury in the same way that non-autistic children's bodies process mercury, he is off on the wrong foot immediately. This doesn't even attempt to tackle the thought that some children process metals differently. Saying that mercury levels in one child could be the same as another -- but neglecting the fact that their bodies have different reactions to that level. Thus the reason could be it is an inherited sensitivity with an environmental trigger.


The research team examined mercury levels in hair and blood samples provided by autistic children and their mothers and concluded that the levels observed did not differ largely from those taken from children without autism.
I've always been under the impression that blood would show high metals only with very recent exposure and that hair mercury would be low for someone whose ability to excrete it would be impaired, so I don't know how this setup could possibly provide any useful information on the matter. The fact that the study was conducted by looking at these variables suggests to me that either the people conducting the study do not understand much of the theories behind autism/heavy metal poisoning or they just didn't care and wanted to design a study that would get the results they wanted.

IdgIe49 05-04-07 12:46 PM

I declined the Prevnar shot for my first son; but If I remember correctly, it became required last year here in Texas. So he had to go get it - because DayCare had to follow the Texas law. Was never asked yes or no on shots for my youngest son, though, like I was for my first son. And I too get an epic load of pamphlet's when my boys get their shots.

I had a Tetanus shot and Hep A shot last month. owie.


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