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Swiftboat shills are lying? Gasp! Say it aint so!

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Swiftboat shills are lying? Gasp! Say it aint so!

Old 08-25-04, 10:48 PM
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It would appear that they have no sense of decency and have no qualms with misleading people "for their own good".
Maybe the vets should have made a documentary instead of an ad?
what exactly do you think "proven" means?
Kerry's campaign stating that he wasn't.
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Old 08-25-04, 10:52 PM
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Originally posted by classicman2
Kerry has run ads which say that Bush misled the American people on Iraq. Whether it's true or not, is that negative advertising?

Bush has run ads saying Kerry has voted at least 19 times to raise your taxes. Bush says he gave you a tax cut. Whether it's true or not, is that negative advertising?
If it's factual I don't consider it negative. In both of those cases there are some issues with facts.

Originally posted by classicman2
Kerry's internal polling obviously showed the ads were having some negative effects. If not, they wouldn't have responded to them they way they did.
Neither one of us know what Kerry's internal pollsters say so that's pure conjecture on your part.
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Old 08-25-04, 10:52 PM
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Originally posted by chess
What's nauseating is how smug republicans are about trying to reelect THIS loser in THIS manner.

It would appear that they have no sense of decency and have no qualms with misleading people "for their own good".

Character assasination sucks. It appeals to the lowest common denominator and I fear it will work forever.

Guess I should pack for Syria...or do they even have oil?
You can at least wait for Kerry to lose before you head out to a country like Syria that has a fairer method of selecting their leaders.
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Old 08-25-04, 10:54 PM
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Originally posted by CRM114
The very fact that people are claiming Kerry didn't bleed enough or he faced death only to further his political aspirations is nauseating.
And what makes it even worse is that it comes from Republicans who have been so forceful in their claim to represent all things military and patriotic up to this point.
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Old 08-25-04, 10:58 PM
  #205  
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And what makes it even worse is that it comes from Republicans who have been so forceful in their claim to represent all things military and patriotic up to this point.
Exposing lies makes people unpatriotic?
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Old 08-25-04, 11:23 PM
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Originally posted by bhk
Exposing lies makes people unpatriotic?
Unpatriotic?

I don't even know what patriotism means anymore. Few people really love this country for what she's supposed to stand for these days. Instead, patriotism has become a bunch of lowest common denomenator flag-waving republican jingoism. [end rant]

However, lying in order to cast doubt on your opponent's bravery in combat is (you'll like this) unAmerican in that it undermines the democratic process...especially in light of the fact that your own candidate is downright cowardly by comparison.
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Old 08-25-04, 11:25 PM
  #207  
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Originally posted by Captain Pike
Can you back that up? I've seen no polling data that shows a significant shift in opinion based on the Vietnam issue.
THE TIMES POLL
Bush Overtakes Kerry in Latest L.A. Times Poll
By Ronald Brownstein, Times Staff Writer

WASHINGTON -- President Bush heads into next week's Republican national convention with voters moving slightly in his direction since July amid signs that John F. Kerry has been nicked by attacks on his service in Vietnam, a Los Angeles Times Poll has found.

For the first time this year in a Times survey, Bush led Kerry in the presidential race, drawing 49 percent among registered voters, compared to 46 percent for the Democrat. In a Times Poll just before the Democratic convention last month, Kerry held a 2 percentage point advantage over Bush.

That small shift from July was within the poll's margin of error. But it fit with other findings in the Times Poll showing the electorate edging toward Bush over the past month on a broad range of measures, from support for his handling of Iraq to confidence in his leadership and honesty.

Although a solid majority of Americans say they believe Kerry served honorably in Vietnam, the poll showed that the fierce attacks on the senator from a group of Vietnam veterans criticizing both his performance in combat and anti-war protests at home have left some marks: Kerry suffered small but consistent erosion compared to July on questions relating to his Vietnam experience, his honesty and his fitness to serve as commander in chief.

The Times Poll, supervised by polling director Susan Pinkus, interviewed 1,597 adults, including 1,352 registered voters nationwide, from Aug. 21-24. It has a margin of sampling error of plus or minus 3 percentage points.

With independent voters splitting evenly in the survey between the two men, one key to Bush's tentative new advantage was his greater success at consolidating his base. While just 3 percent of voters who called themselves Republicans said they would vote for Kerry, Bush drew 15 percent of all Democrats, and 20 percent of Democrats who consider themselves moderate or conservative, the poll found.

Bush's advantage remained 3 percentage points when independent candidate Ralph Nader was added to the mix. In a three-way race, Bush drew 47 percent, compared to 44 percent for Kerry and 3 percent for Nader, whose access to the ballot in many key states remains uncertain.

For all the promising signs for Bush, the poll found the president still threatened by a consistent current of uneasiness about the nation's direction. In the survey, a slight majority of voters said they believed the country was on the wrong track. A majority also said the country was not better off because of his policies and needed to set a new course. And 45 percent said they believed his policies have hurt rather than helped the economy.

Those results suggested that a substantial part of the electorate remained open to change. But amid the firefight over Kerry's Vietnam service, and uncertainty about his policy plans, the Democrat still has not built a constituency for his candidacy as large as the audience for change in general, , the poll suggested. Nearly one in five voters who say the country needed to change policy direction is not supporting Kerry, according to the poll.

Pamela Sundberg, a disabled paralegal from Moorhead, Minn., who responded to the survey, crystallized the conflicting emotions among those drawn toward change but still resisting Kerry.

Sundberg voted for Bush in 2000 but now feels "we got ourselves in a mess in Iraq," where her son has been serving. She is dubious about Kerry, saying "he's so back and forth about things."

But while leaning toward Bush now, she can envision switching to Kerry by November. "Maybe just for a change he should be elected," she said.

The country divides mostly along predictable partisan lines to the fierce exchanges between Kerry and the group that has attacked his Vietnam record over the past month, Swift Boat Veterans for Truth. But by several measures the struggle appears to be drawing some blood from Kerry.

The Swift boat group, which has received funding from several of President Bush's supporters and advice from some veteran Republican operatives, has made only relatively small purchases of television time in a few battleground states for its two ads, the first charging that Kerry did not deserve some of the five medals he won in Vietnam and the second criticizing his anti-war testimony before the Senate in 1971.

But with the controversy attracting intense media attention, especially on talk radio and cable television, the ads have achieved extraordinary visibility among voters. Forty-eight percent of those polled said they had seen the ad accusing Kerry of lying to win his medals; an additional 20 percent said they had heard about it. Similarly, 44 percent said they had seen the ad criticizing Kerry's Senate testimony; another 17 percent said they had heard about it.

At the same time, just 18 percent of those surveyed said they "believe that Kerry misrepresented his war record and does not deserve his war medals," while 58 percent said Kerry "fought honorably and does deserve" the medals.

Attitudes on that question divided sharply along party lines. As many Republicans said they believed Kerry was lying as believe he fought honorably. By nearly 10-1, Democrats said Kerry served honorably.Independents sided with Kerry in the dispute by more than 5-1.

When voters were asked whether Kerry's protest against the war when he returned from Vietnam would influence their vote, 20 percent said it made them more likely to support him, while 26 percent said it reduced the chance they would back him and 52 percent said it made no difference.But if Kerry showed relatively few bruises on these questions directly measuring reactions to the veterans' charges against him, indirect measures suggested he has suffered more damage.

Asked how Kerry's overall military experience would affect their vote, just 23 percent said it made them more likely to vote for him, while 21 percent said it made them less likely; the remaining 53 percent said it would make no difference. That has to be a disappointment for the Kerry camp after a Democratic convention last month that placed Kerry's Vietnam service at the top of the marquee.

Other key questions produced even more troubling results for Kerry.In the July Times Poll, 53 percent of voters said Kerry in his Vietnam combat missions had demonstrated the "qualities America needs in a president" while just 32 percent said by "protesting the war in Vietnam, John Kerry demonstrated a judgment and belief that is inappropriate in a president."

In the August survey, that balance nudged away from Kerry, with 48 percent saying he had demonstrated the right qualities and 37 percent saying he exhibited poor judgment.

Likewise, the share of voters saying they lacked confidence in Kerry as a potential commander in chief edged up from 39 percent in July to 43 percent now; the percentage that said they were confident in him slipped from 57 percent to 55 percent. Both changes were within the poll's margin of error, yet both tracked with the poll's general pattern of slight Kerry slippage.

Similar trends were evident on voters' assessments of the two men's personal qualities. Compared to July, Bush slightly widened his advantage over Kerry when voters were asked which was a strong leader and which had the honesty and integrity to serve as president. Following the poll's general trend, the percentage of voters who said they viewed Kerry favorably slipped from 58 percent in July to 53 percent in August, while the percentage who viewed him unfavorably ticked up from 36 percent to 41 percent. Bush's ratings, by contrast, were virtually unchanged from last month in this poll with 53 percent viewing him favorably and 46 percent unfavorably.

The poll spotlighted another challenge for Kerry. After a Democratic convention that focused much more on Kerry's biography than his agenda, just 58 percent said they knew even a fair amount about the policies he would pursue as president; nearly four in ten said they knew not much or nothing at all.

By comparison, even though Bush has put forward few specifics about his second-term priorities, 70 percent said they had a good idea of the policies he would pursue.Compared with the trend of modest erosion for Kerry in the poll, Bush either slightly gained ground or stabilized his position on several measures.

Bush's overall approval rating, which many analysts consider the best single gauge of his prospects in November, stood at 52 percent, with 47 percent disapproving; the numbers last month were 51 percent to 48 percent.

Bush's approval rating on the economy, at 46 percent, hardly budged from July. But the percentage of voters who gave him positive marks on Iraq did bump up from 44 percent in July to 48 percent now, with 50 percent disapproving.

Asked if the situation in Iraq was worth launching the war, 46 percent said yes and 49 percent said no; last month the numbers were 44 percent and 51 percent.

One potential bright spot for Kerry: The 5 percent of voters who said they were undecided were overwhelmingly negative on the direction of the country, the impact of Bush's policies and the decision to invade Iraq.

http://www.latimes.com/news/custom/t...home-headlines
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Old 08-25-04, 11:27 PM
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Question. Do the SVFT deny that our troops committed horrific acts in this particular war? They act as if Kerry's recounting of other's statements are bald-faced lies. Do the SBVT deny there were free-fire zones and search and destroy missions? I'm confused here.

What happened in My Lai where 500 innocent old men, women, children and babies were massacred? They were raped, tortured, and mutilated. They had to be stopped by our own troops threatening to fire on them.




People had been herded up systematically, made to get down in this irrigation ditch, and they were executed. We started marking some of the bodies that were still alive with green smoke, (dropping smoke grenades from the helicopter) so the medics on the ground could help them. We marked this one woman who had chest wounds. She was moving one arm, feebly, asking for help, so we marked her. Mr. Thompson backed up 20, 30 feet and hovered there 10 feet off the ground because he saw a soldier coming over to her. That was (Capt. Ernest) Medina. We pointed down to her. He kicked her, stepped back and blew her away right in front of us. That's when we simultaneously said something like: "You son of a bitch." Then we knew. The mystery was solved. It was people from Charlie Company.

They raped the women with M16s, bayonets. They sodomized children. They decapitated people. They killed a monk, threw him down a well with hand grenades. It was so obscene. They did everything but eat the people.

Did this not happen? Was John Kerry wrong?

Get real.

Last edited by CRM114; 08-25-04 at 11:45 PM.
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Old 08-25-04, 11:33 PM
  #209  
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Yay! Our lies are working! God bless America!

Republicans

Last edited by chess; 08-25-04 at 11:37 PM.
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Old 08-25-04, 11:40 PM
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Going for the heartstrings here, are we? Well, in light of that picture, I've changed my mind 180 and am now going to vote for...

nah, I'm still going with Bush. It's funny, but now that you guys bring up the attrocities, I wonder if you don't harbor at least some romantic, idealistic sentiment for those who refused to be a part of it by going underground, heading to Canada or any other number of ways of getting around serving in Vietnam... hey, wait a minute... oh, nevermind.
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Old 08-25-04, 11:46 PM
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Originally posted by Mutley Hyde
Going for the heartstrings here, are we? Well, in light of that picture, I've changed my mind 180 and am now going to vote for...

nah, I'm still going with Bush. It's funny, but now that you guys bring up the attrocities, I wonder if you don't harbor at least some romantic, idealistic sentiment for those who refused to be a part of it by going underground, heading to Canada or any other number of ways of getting around serving in Vietnam... hey, wait a minute... oh, nevermind.
I asked a legitimate question and one which the SVFT proponents avoid answering. Do you deny that atrocities took place in Vietnam? Simple question.
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Old 08-25-04, 11:49 PM
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Nah, I don't deny it. And not only is it a simple question, it's quite silly.
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Old 08-25-04, 11:51 PM
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Originally posted by Mutley Hyde
Nah, I don't deny it. And not only is it a simple question, it's quite silly.
But your swifties ran a whole ad condemning John Kerry for having the audacity to testify to this truth. It is truth, is it not? And since we've agreed that it was the truth, why again is John Kerry "Unfit for Command?"
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Old 08-25-04, 11:52 PM
  #214  
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Originally posted by Mutley Hyde
Going for the heartstrings here, are we? Well, in light of that picture, I've changed my mind 180 and am now going to vote for...

nah, I'm still going with Bush. It's funny, but now that you guys bring up the attrocities, I wonder if you don't harbor at least some romantic, idealistic sentiment for those who refused to be a part of it by going underground, heading to Canada or any other number of ways of getting around serving in Vietnam... hey, wait a minute... oh, nevermind.
Nah, I don't blame Bush for choosing not to go. I might have done the same in his shoes, and I wouldn't blame kids for having a similar reaction to Iraq should a draft come up. Similarly, I never held it against Clinton.

Vietnam was clearly a mistake from virtually every perspective, and today, I applaud Kerry for speaking up against it and harbor no resentment for anyone who avoided it.

Of course this is all true...UNLESS...a person made a committment and didn't fulfill it, which remains to be seen...and UNLESS...that person chooses to unfairly dispairage those who volunteered to risk their lives as a method of getting reelected.
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Old 08-25-04, 11:58 PM
  #215  
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"unfairly" is such a subjective word...

And that contradicts what Bush has repeatedly publicly said about Kerry's service.
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Old 08-26-04, 12:00 AM
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Originally posted by CRM114
But your swifties ran a whole ad condemning John Kerry for having the audacity to testify to this truth. It is truth, is it not? And since we've agreed that it was the truth, why again is John Kerry "Unfit for Command?"
My swifties?

Eh, I'm going to bed. Kerry sucks balls, IMHO of course. I really don't give a rat's ass about 'my swifties', Kerry's service or Bush's. Fucking Vietnam isn't the issue for 2004. It's a shame for you guys that's all that Kerry is running on.

G'night.
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Old 08-26-04, 12:06 AM
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Originally posted by CRM114
But your swifties ran a whole ad condemning John Kerry for having the audacity to testify to this truth. It is truth, is it not? And since we've agreed that it was the truth, why again is John Kerry "Unfit for Command?"
The correct question you should ask is why Kerry is crying like a baby. He, afterall invoked this whole Vietnam hoopla. Now he's playing pick-n-choose which ad should be run or not. I don't see the Kerry camp condeming Moron.org for slander.

Oh, I forgot to mention how the liberal media is trying to blend the prison abuse into the news again. Trying to do Kerrry a favor but a wee bit too late.

from Drudge...
New LA TIMES Poll: Kerry hurt by Swift Boat attacks, Bush ahead 49% -46% for the first time this year, Bush takes 15% of all Democrats, 20% of 'conservative/moderate' Democrats while Kerry takes 3% of Republicans...

Last edited by Myster X; 08-26-04 at 12:11 AM.
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Old 08-26-04, 12:17 AM
  #218  
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Originally posted by X
"unfairly" is such a subjective word...

And that contradicts what Bush has repeatedly publicly said about Kerry's service.
Did I say "unfair"?

I guess I was trying to be diplomatic...and I have, of course, taken Bush's "high road" public stance into account. It's downright Nixonesque.

Instead of "unfair", how about "unleashes a bunch of dirty fucking liars, the leader of which is actually recorded on the Nixon tapes, to smear his opponent, who is a bona-fide war hero."

It simply boggles the mind that Joe Public doesn't see this for what it is. New info about how worthless these guys are comes out every day (Bush lawyer, Nixon tapes w/ Cambodia, Bush steering committee guy, Rove related donors, Chicago Tribune guy, gunfire in the other award citations...) but I fear that the story might have run its course in the media.

However, if it hasn't, and Kerry can weather the storm and expose/spin this for the smear campaign that it is, the next logical step is to take a really good look at what Bush was up to.
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Old 08-26-04, 12:20 AM
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Originally posted by Myster X
The correct question you should ask is why Kerry is crying like a baby. He, afterall invoked this whole Vietnam hoopla. Now he's playing pick-n-choose which ad should be run or not. I don't see the Kerry camp condeming Moron.org for slander.

Oh, I forgot to mention how the liberal media is trying to blend the prison abuse into the news again. Trying to do Kerrry a favor but a wee bit too late.

from Drudge...
New LA TIMES Poll: Kerry hurt by Swift Boat attacks, Bush ahead 49% -46% for the first time this year, Bush takes 15% of all Democrats, 20% of 'conservative/moderate' Democrats while Kerry takes 3% of Republicans...
Yay! Our lies are working! God bless America!

Republicans
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Old 08-26-04, 12:27 AM
  #220  
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All I can say is politics is best treated as non-emotionally as possible.
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Old 08-26-04, 12:31 AM
  #221  
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Originally posted by bhk
Exposing lies makes people unpatriotic?
When you are lying about the lies, yes.
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Old 08-26-04, 12:34 AM
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I'm just sick of character assassination...over and over and over.

I knew it was coming, but even I didn't think that it would be this bad.

Some republicans ideas have merit. Can't they just run on them?
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Old 08-26-04, 12:41 AM
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Originally posted by chess
I'm just sick of character assassination...over and over and over.
And where is the majority of character assassination coming from?? I don't remember seeing any ads from the SBVT characterizing John Kerry as Hitler.
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Old 08-26-04, 01:13 AM
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Originally posted by darkflounder
And where is the majority of character assassination coming from?? I don't remember seeing any ads from the SBVT characterizing John Kerry as Hitler.


These guys have been working on Kerry since 1971. Listen to the Nixon tapes. If you don't already see a pattern of dirty tricks here, I'm not sure I can help.

For the record, Kerry and Hitler are from opposing ends of the political spectrum, so it might be hard to make that one stick...though I'm a bit surprised that they haven't tried (October?)...maybe, for now, you could compare him to Castro or something.

Somebody get Karl Rove on the phone!!!
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Old 08-26-04, 01:27 AM
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Originally posted by chess


Some republicans ideas have merit. Can't they just run on them?
Sadly, no.
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