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Craps question

Old 08-08-04, 04:53 AM
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Craps question

I was just reading through some of the rules for a craps game and found the following payoff.

A winning hardway bet pays 7 to 1 on numbers 4 and 10 and 9 to 1 on numbers 6 and 8.
Is that standard, or a house rule to this particular casino? Wouldn't the odds of rolling double 2s or 5s be the same as rolling double 3s or 4s?
Old 08-08-04, 10:29 AM
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House rules per casino. Typically it's 10-1 on 10/4 and 8-1 on 8/6.
Old 08-08-04, 10:58 AM
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The fact that you're even looking at those bets indicates you've already lost. Just hand your money to the dealer and walk away.
Old 08-08-04, 11:03 AM
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Originally posted by Groucho
The fact that you're even looking at those bets indicates you've already lost. Just hand your money to the dealer and walk away.
Definately not true. Those aren't quite the sucker bets as say, the Field.
Old 08-08-04, 11:12 AM
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You can throw a few bucks down on it, but you better be up, because you don't make those bets when you are down.

-pedagogue
Old 08-08-04, 11:39 AM
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I'm just wondering why the different pay out when the statistical odds should be the same.
Old 08-08-04, 11:44 AM
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The odds of hitting double 2s is the same as the odds of hitting double 3s, but that's only part of the bet -- you're betting that you'll hit double 2s before you make an easy 4 (or a 7).

When you bet a hard 4, there's one shot that will win it for you (2-2-), and 8 shots that will lose it (3-1, 1-3, 6-1, 5-2, 4-3, 3-4, 2-5, and 1-6). When you bet a hard 6, there's still one shot that will win it for you (3-3), but now there are 10 shots that will lose it (5-1, 4-2, 2-4, 1-5, plus all 6 combinations that add up to 7).
Old 08-08-04, 11:46 AM
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Originally posted by Mongo
I'm just wondering why the different pay out when the statistical odds should be the same.
But the odds aren't the same. Taken from www.wizardofodds.com, these are the House edge on those bets:

Hard 4
Hard 4 before 7 or easy 4
7-1
11.11%

Hard 6
Hard 6 before 7 or easy 6
9-1
9.09%

Hard 8
Hard 8 before 7 or easy 8
9-1
9.09%

Hard 10
Hard 10 before 7 or easy 10
7-1
11.11%
Old 08-08-04, 11:47 AM
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Originally posted by JasonF
The odds of hitting double 2s is the same as the odds of hitting double 3s, but that's only part of the bet -- you're betting that you'll hit double 2s before you make an easy 4 (or a 7).

When you bet a hard 4, there's one shot that will win it for you (2-2-), and 8 shots that will lose it (3-1, 1-3, 6-1, 5-2, 4-3, 3-4, 2-5, and 1-6). When you bet a hard 6, there's still one shot that will win it for you (3-3), but now there are 10 shots that will lose it (5-1, 4-2, 2-4, 1-5, plus all 6 combinations that add up to 7).
Exactly. I was just going to post this.
Old 08-08-04, 11:55 AM
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Ah, right! Ok, I had forgotten that an easy X causes a hard way bet to be lost.

As you can tell, I'm not a very experienced craps player, I stick to blackjack or poker.

Thanks for the info.
Old 08-08-04, 12:59 PM
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Avoid the hardways
Old 08-08-04, 01:09 PM
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OK, here's a craps question.

Last time I was in Vegas, there was a guy betting both Pass and Don't Pass. Sometimes he was betting $6 on pass and $5 on Don't Pass, which I guess enabled him to make $1 bets at a $5 table. And sometimes he was betting $5 on Pass and putting odds and $5 on Don't Pass with no odds, which I guess enabled him to bet odds without betting on the line.

But sometimes he was betting $5 on Pass and $5 on Don't Pass, and didn't place any odds. Is there any sane reason to do that?
Old 08-08-04, 05:09 PM
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There is no sane reason to do that other than to irritate the dealers. On a come-out 12 he loses the pass and pushes the DP. If he avoids that, then he rolls for free.
Old 08-08-04, 05:32 PM
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Why would it irritate them? Perfectly legal betting strategy.
Old 02-13-05, 04:47 AM
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Just to clarify on Deftones odds; it's actually 10-1 for the hard 6-8 and 8-1 for hard 4-10. Bad bet? Really depends on the flow of the table. Ah yes, the mysticism of craps!
Old 02-14-05, 12:04 AM
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Deftones had the right odds. On your odds, the casino gives back the money you initially bet.
Old 02-24-05, 09:29 AM
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One thing to be aware of when you walk into a casino. Some places will advertise their odds as '10 for 1' and '8 for 1'. This is to make players think they are getting a better deal. These odds are the same as '9 to 1' and '7 to 1'. Either way, it's a bad bet. That's why the stickman advertises it so much. A passline bet with full odds and two come bets with full odds is probably one of the best ways to play.
Old 03-02-05, 11:12 AM
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Interesting thread (interesting enough to get me out of my lurking status). While I certainly agree that betting the hardways for 4,6,8,10 is a sucker bet when placed alone, I would definitely disagree that they are sucker bets in general. A decent application of these hardways bets is to place them once your point has been established on one of these numbers. The reasoning behind it is that if your number hits and it's an easy 4,6,8 or 10, you still make money on the point. That being said, if the hardways hits you win the hardways bet and the point bet which can really be a large boost.

Last edited by scotplum; 03-02-05 at 11:14 AM.
Old 03-05-05, 03:22 AM
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This thread brought us both out of lurking status!

I have to disagree about the hardways though. The house advantage for the hard 4 and 10 will always be 11.11% and for the 6 and 8 it will alway be 9.09%. These do not change depending on when you bet them.

These percentages are very high. If you compare them to a roulette game, the house advantage is 5.26% on a double zero game or 2.7% on a single zero game. Blackjack is even better for the player if they play by basic strategy.

Overall, you should stay away from hardways (unless they win of course ;-) )

If you're interested in craps, there is a dvd out on ebay at the moment called 'Essential Craps - A guide for players and dealers'. It is probably the best craps DVD around.
Old 03-05-05, 01:35 PM
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Originally Posted by BJF

If you're interested in craps, there is a dvd out on ebay at the moment called 'Essential Craps - A guide for players and dealers'. It is probably the best craps DVD around.
There's more than one craps DVD out???

Statistically, the hardways are a sucker bet. With that said, I've seen people make a killing betting the hardways when the point is an even number. I typically don't bet them at all.
Old 03-05-05, 07:43 PM
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Like the old saying goes "I'd rather be lucky than good!"

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