Why So Blu?

I had both and a nice combo DVD/SACD/DVD-AUDIO player. It actually had a DVI output.

Once the player stopped working and both formats ended I sold off the SACD/DVD-AUDIO collection.

Coral

So you bailed out of a niche market format.

I don't know about DVD-Audio, but SACD hasn't ended. There are still roughly 50+ titles released per month on SACD. While half are classical, there are still pop/rock titles coming out. Sure, it's not a lot - but the release numbers aren't much different than any other time of the formats existence.

What I'm sick of is the $30+ price tag on a lot of these releases. That's too much to pay for a single album.

PhantomStranger

If you have a nice audio system, SACD is definitely alive. It's probably more satisfying today than it was a decade ago, though the price for entry has gone up.

Why So Blu?

Yeah, I have nice enough system, but would rather stick to vinyl as opposed to SACD.

Giles

correct - I can't wait for the Roger Waters album 'Amused To Death' (SACD) that is coming out (Date TBA - but preorders are up on Amazon)

Supermallet

You can listen to all existing MP3/FLAC/ALAC etc. files on a Pono player. That was part of the reason I got in on the Kickstarter, it was a very versatile high end portable player that you could also plug into an existing home system. It will still be niche but it's more versatile than DVD-A or SACD were.

dhmac

In the case of DVD-Audio and SACD, it was a rush to market that seems to be common when there's 2 or more competing formats because each company wants to establish a beachhead in hope of becoming THE format that catches on.

However, I do remember that not allowing direct digital out from the player was something that the record companies insisted on because they were so afraid of people stealing the pure digital signal and sharing it. So the only outputs allowed were analog jacks (which meant 6 RCA cables to connect the player to 6 analog inputs on a receiver) or a lossy down-converted Dolby Digital output - and that was ALL they allowed. It was a stupid requirement they forced on the equipment makers that also probably helped hinder the adoption of the formats due to it being analog for playback.

As for there still being SACD releases, I attribute that mainly to Sony who will push a format long after the market has decided against it. (Such as how long they still sold Betamax for years and years after VHS already took the VCR market. Another example is how they kept MiniDisc going for years and years too, only discontinuing it in 2013!)

As for DVD-Audio, it is a dead format. But I think Blu-ray Audio is now essentially replacing it as a hi-rez PCM audio disc format, which I think is good news for at least the fact that it's a much higher capacity format that will allow a lot more content on releases as well as the fact that all Blu-ray players can play back the hi-rez audio content on the discs (something that was not the case for DVD players and DVD-Audio playback).

The fact that any Blu-ray Disc player can play Blu-ray Audio makes me think it could really catch on if the disc releases would just get cheaper. Because if I could buy music on Blu-ray Audio for just a few buck more than the same music would cost on CD or as a downloaded album, I would always get it. (And making it a bit like the Blu-ray movie "+ DVD" releases by also including a CD of the same music would make it a sure thing, IMO).

hdtv00

Check out this Q&A with Wolfson Microelectronics. They discuss the ins and outs of high-resolution audio on smartphones.

http://www.androidauthority.com/lets...son-qa-417688/

Supermallet

My Pono player arrived just before Christmas and I've been playing with it since then. First, depending on the source, the music on this thing can sound amazing. I got a vinyl rip of The Joshua Tree that sounds like a whole new album compared to other versions I've heard. I can hear lots of detail and texture in recordings I thought I knew like the back of my hand. The downside of this is that not every album sounds so good, and you quickly get spoiled by the ones that do sound the best. Most of the response to the audio side of Pono is that you'd have to spend $1,000 or more to beat the quality, so for $200 I feel like I practically stole it.

However, the UI and included software are both in need of some serious improvement before this device is really ready for primetime. If this were $200 all the time, I'd say that the flaws are livable. But since this normally sells for $400, I'm not as enthusiastic about recommending it. I'm glad I got one because of the price I paid and how good the music sounds, but I wouldn't say that Pono is currently a slam dunk at $400.

Giles

does anyone have a Sony NWZ-A17SLV Hi-Res Walkman - I'm eyeing that.

Supermallet

So far this Pono player has been totally worth it for hearing vinyl rips of '80s Prince albums and 12" singles. The 12" of "Let's Go Crazy/Erotic City" sounds so fantastic, and his other '80s albums benefit from a fullness and richness of detail that the anemic current CDs almost completely lack.

hdtv00

This is like the 3rd article I've seen in two weeks goofing or saying the Pono player is a joke.
http://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2015/...-of-snake-oil/

I'm shocked to find/hear that 90% of their store is cd quality tracks , what a joke. And you certainly don't need a $400 pono player to listen to high res audio files. I now listen to them using any android device on the go, no need for a waste of $400 plus an online store from them that has almost nothing. Better off using HDtracks and using what you have already.

Heck you wanna use your phone, get a $100 Fiio's portable amp and you still save $300 lol. Wish I would've bookmarked the one article that had people listening to tell the difference between mp3 and pono high res, one guy who actually already owned a pono. You guessed it every single one of them couldn't tell a difference and picked the iphone for sounding better.

EDIT I had to find that first article I seen on it being a joke. This cracked me up.
https://www.yahoo.com/tech/it-was-on...496883039.html

Supermallet

Pono is actually on the low end of the spectrum for lossless players with a good DAC. If Pono is snake oil, then all those other lossless players that cost double the price or more are also snake oil. The iPhone output is limited to 16/44 currently. Not sure about Android phones. And several people have said the $100 Fiio sounds awful.

I agree that the Pono music store needs a ton of work though. I haven't purchased a single track from them. But you can play FLAC or MP3 files from any source on the Pono. And they're promising DSD playback in an upcoming firmware update.

Given the current beta feel of the software (both on device and the music store), I wouldn't recommend the Pono for $400, but I got it for $200 and I don't feel like I was cheated. The quality of the music depends on the source (and I don't just mean HD Tracks vs. Pono, I mean the tapes that were used, if there's any brick walling, etc.), but the best tracks I've heard on my Pono sound so much more lively and detailed than the MP3 version from my iPhone. Maybe it's placebo, but I've been enjoying it.

cungar

You should have someone do an A/B blindfold test to you with a Pono and an iPhone. Be willing to bet you couldn't tell the difference.

Mikael79

I read that article and found it odd that the reviewer complains about the box and a lack of built-in speaker. Really?? I think the analogy of his coworker not being able to tell the difference between expensive and cheap wine says it all.

I'm neither a wine aficionado nor a Pono owner, but am just a music fan that respects NY's opinion on shit.

Supermallet

I admitted my perception might be due to a placebo effect, but I already bought the device, and I'm perceiving a better musical experience with than with the iPhone, so why would I try to dispel that notion?

There was someone on the Pono forums who did do A/B'ing of the Pono and a few other sources, using FLAC on the Pono and 320 MP3 on the others, and he said he could barely tell a difference, so he chose to sell his Pono.

Supermallet

Also, I think it's disingenuous to say that you should spend the lowest amount possible for a device that plays lossless files. As anyone who works with sound in a professional capacity can tell you, there are many links across a chain that determine how good something sounds. The Pono doesn't have the same internals as the iPhone or an Android phone, even if they're playing the same files. If sound quality was the same across all price points for any piece of musical equipment, then audiophiles would all have a $20 USB record player hooked up to 2.1 computer speakers that cost another $40. But the fact is you're not going to get great sound with a low end setup, and I'm not saying that a top of the line smartphone is low end, but it's also not designed specifically for audiophile listening. A player like the Pono isn't essential for playing back lossless audio files, but it's not meant to just be a barebones player either. The $400 isn't for the basic playback function, it's for the quality of the internals.

Now, you may argue that the Pono actually doesn't go far enough to make a difference from the iPhone or an Android, in which case you may want to look at the $800+ players on the market, but the Pono offers many things the iPhone doesn't, like playback higher than CD quality (16/44), dual listening modes, support for balanced headphones, expandable storage, etc. Even if the sound quality WERE exactly the same between the iPhone and the Pono, those additional features might make it worthwhile for some people.

But for the love of all that is holy don't buy your music from the Pono store. They're so in beta it's not even funny.

wmermine

The thing I've seen criticizing the Pono are from non-"audiophile" sources, if I recall correctly. I'm not one to buy into whatever a so-called audiophile says, but I think that those who claim they can't hear a difference aren't conducting the tests properly and/or don't know what differences they should be listening for. Many people's perception of how music should sound are formed by iPhone listening or car audio, not with dedicated listening to a high-end stereo set up or hi-res with good headphones.

(Just go to an airport and count the number of people wearing "Beats by Dre" -- that is why most people consider to be high end audio. I can only assume by the advertising that most people only care about maximizing bass output.)

The Pono is clearly not a product for everyone (it's not for me - vinyl at home and steaming at work), but to say that it's just as good as an iPhone is to deny the science behind sound reproduction.

cungar

There's two factors here at play here. The ability to produce higher quality sound and the ability of people to perceive the difference. I liken it to building a house with high grade wood verses low grade wood. It may be a better product but can you really tell the difference?

wmermine

Subjective human experience will always result in this sort of discrepancy, I think.

If you listen to high-res and standard-res through iPhone ear buds, you probably wouldn't hear the difference. If you listen to them through my home stereo setup, you would certainly hear the difference.

To use your building analogy, when the right conditions are present, you will notice. If a hurricane hits your two hypothetical houses, then the wood quality will become manifest.

But, I agree with you that for most purposes, people might not notice. If they were only listening to music, without distractions, the differences would be apparent and would matter. So, for most people, the differences never matter because few people engage in dedicated music listening these days.

Dan

I like the idea of the Pono. I'd love to try one out for myself. But not for $400 + shipping + exchange. I have some nice high-quality headphones (KEF M500). They're not noise-cancelling, because I only use noise-cancelling earbuds for flying, and don't need that feature otherwise, and would love to test my KEFs out with a proper high-res portable player like the Pono or something similar. High quality sound processing is just too expensive.

Supermallet

Okay, so after reading this article: http://xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html

I will admit that 24/192 playback is not necessary for high quality sound. However, I do think a well designed and balanced DAC can make a difference in the quality of playback (as well as other internal components), and the Pono definitely has that. So what I will be doing is taking all the FLAC files I have that are above 16/44 and convert them down to that resolution to save space. I'll also make them ALAC so I can load some onto my iPhone or iPod if I want. I have some 16/44 FLAC files already and many of them sound fantastic. I already have found that all else being equal (that is, I'm playing everything back on the same equipment with the same headphones and the mastering isn't brick walled to death), the quality of the source recording trumps the sampling rate and frequency any day of the week, so I'm more than willing to believe the above article.

I'll still be keeping my Pono, but it does sound like for most people, grabbing some ALAC files for their iPhone will be more than fine.

PhantomStranger

Most people don't know what to listen for when trying to detect differences between Hi-Rez sound and lower quality formats. People that hear things for a living, such as musicians and recording engineers, can almost always pick up the nuances lost in lower rez formats.

Supermallet

By lower rez do you mean MP3 vs FLAC or do you mean 16/44 vs 24/192?

hdtv00

He means both those I imagine. I never posted to be a nay sayer, I was just shocked at how many times within a week I seen an article bashing pono.

I think Pono is a joke for two reasons their store is a joke and the fact that the flac file must be bought from their store to make the little blue light come on showing high res playback is a complete and utter joke to me.

I have Senn headphones 650,700 and 560 Ovation II's and I believe totally in quality DAC/Amp combo. For serious listening I use Aune T1 with nice Orange globe tube. Now no one would call a Aune T1 high end of the DAC AMP mountain but it's that's a pretty damn nice step up from playback on a phone using crap earbuds. The highs are magical and I love it with the right tube. I wasn't impressed with the stock tube at all.

At the same time I don't think people saying the difference is 10% different either. IF you have good headphone which if you ask me is the most important part. The difference can be rather subtle. But the difference can also be night and day too.

Take for instance if I use any of my Senn headphones on the Aune say vs my onboard audio, which is special (or so they claim) ASrock Purity Sound capable of 600 ohm headphones use and high end sound. Anyway it sounds very different than using the Aune or tablet or phone , it's more powerful or robust but a little some detail is lost perhaps in it's power. It seems to me always a search it is for this supreme balance of high vs low, mid all there all clean. I don't want the headphone to color anything I want what's recorded and no more.

Well anyway there is something to high end sound I still remember 20+ years ago when I first bought the Sennheiser HD 560 II, I thought no way could there be a headphone worth $200, and that was before the high end craze to price insane headphones at god awful prices. But sure enough it sounded so much better than anything I ever heard before I was an instant believer and listened to every single cd I owned at the time and was simply amazed. They still amaze me to this day even vs the 650 and 700's.

I try and keep things high res as I can so not to wonder what I"m missing the mastering makes so much difference, well anyway carry on.