Randy Miller III

El-P - "I'll Sleep When You're Dead"

DRG

These points summarize things very well, IMO. The main issue is that all the songs are geared toward the clubs or ringtones. Even something like "Nuthin' But a G Thing" would probably be considered too slow and wouldn't get much play if introduced in today's environment. Which is ironic because Dr Dre pretty much started the concept of the 'superstar producer' in hip hop.

Nausicaa

Nujabes is another fantastic producer (Japan) - probably one of my favorites. His beats are fantastic and tend to be more musically engaging.

Here's a video of one of his better tracks with Shing02 on the mic:

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UAIOE

I'll blame Korn, but mostly because they helped Limp Bizkit get heard.

I'll take "Epic" over anything Korn or LB.

Rypro 525

i agree fully, i love the song personally, but if this song never became popular as it did, we wouldn't have to deal with limp and most of the other nu metal crap.

Jason

I know I'll get slaughtered for saying this, but I've always thought that The Notorious B.I.G. was about the worst thing to happen to rap, and is largely responsible for the muddy, overproduced crap that led to what passes for rap today. I never saw him as a talented rapper. He was in the right place at the right time, and connected with the right people.

Hiro11

No.

Michael Corvin

I have to disagree. Its hard to say that Korn & Limp Bizkit were a direct response to Epic's popularity when they didn't break through until over a half a decade later.

I can see the guys sitting around:

- "do you remember that band that had that one hit 6 years ago?"
- "no, who's that"
- "that song that had the dying fish at the end of the video"
- "yea, yea, that song fucking rocked."
- "dude I know, that's why I want to base our entire sound on that flash-in-the-pan hit from a half a decade ago."
- "fucking genius!"

UAIOE

No, I blame the fizzling out of "Alternative" music for the rise of Rap Rock & Nu Metal.

If I were going to uh..."blame" any one song for inspiring Rock/Rap Nu Metal I'd point the finger at Run DMC & Aerosmith doing "Walk this way".

dek

That would go to Snoop or Tupac.

Josh-da-man

I'm not a fan or rap music at all, but it seems like the problems people have with rap/hip-hop is a symptom of the music industry as a whole.

Sometime in the mid-90s (specifically, after Kurt Cobain died and when Britney Spears first appeared), "music" became less about music, and more about selling a particular lifestyle.

"Grunge" had burned out (or, more accurately, burned out by record company marketing departments) by the time Cobain died and they really didn't have any "next big thing" to pull out and milk until the next next big thing came along.

So you start to see all of these bands like Korn and Limp Bizkit that feel like they were put together by the marketing departments of record companies.

And from that point on, music became more about hawking clothes and fashion and bling and attitude and magazine covers than it was about making music.

Musicians weren't just musicians anymore. They had to be fashion models and actors, too. General purpose celebrities. It doesn't matter if the album is any good, you're supposed to buy it because the "artist" is on the cover of a magazine, and if you embrace them, you can have a part of that big celebrity lifestyle, too.

And then rap all of a sudden becomes about personality instead of product; the music [flavor of the moment artist] produces isn't important. He can get past the velvet rope, and if you buy the album and the clothes from his line of clothes, you can get past that rope, too.

It's no coincidence that it was around this time that MTV stopped playing music and started pushing lifestyles. They replaced ACTUAL MUSIC CONTENT with dating games, reality shows, frat boy stunts, and shit like "Cribs." Jessica Simpson's music might suck, but she's willing to humiliate herself on camera week after week. Why play Missy Elliot music when you can follow her around a jewelry store shopping for bling? Pretty much sums it up, doesn't it?

Hixx

Hmmm, even though Rage Against the Machine came a couple of years later, I tend to place the blame more on them as they were way more popular than Faith No More ever was.

Plus Mike Patton rules!

UAIOE

I don't believe that either of these bands were "created". As much as I dislike LB, I believe they were just a mediocre band that was picked up because rap/rock was seen as a hot commodity.

I'm inclined to believe that Korn and the rap/rock nu-metal stuff grew in popularity due to the fact that "grunge" wasn't around to be the music of angsty teens. I can recall back in 1997 that MTV was trying to push "electronica" and The Prodigy as "the next big thing" and that never really panned out.

GuessWho

Ummm, like disco?

You think the lifestyle concept was new in the late 1990's?

xmiyux

I was coming in to recommend Saul Williams as well. One of the best artists out there right now imo.

I also really like both Brother Ali and Dead Prez.

Hell, even the nerdcore scene is kind of cool with things like MC Frontalot.

msdmoney

I second that. If you don't think Biggie was a talented lyricist, you haven't listened to enough of his songs.

Rival11

I've never gotten into the goofy gangster rap shit or any of the mainstream shit that's out there. I grew up with Run-DMC, Dougie Fresh, UTFO, and defintiely missed the beats they used - there is no doubt that style could have been improved on and prob would have taken the genre to much better places.....for me anyway.

I just listen the following whenever I want my dose:

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boredsilly

I agree with a lot of sentiments expressed in this thread. Those who said that the problems are ones facing music at large, and not just rap music, hit the nail on the head. But I still would like to look at what troubles me about this genre of music.

Firstly, Soulja Boy isn't the downfall of hip-hop. I would be a hypocrite if I started saying that, since when I was a boy I loved Kriss-Kross...and there is no difference there. That is kid's music, plain and simple.

No, what bothers me is what passes for "serious" rap music in the mainstream and the mold that almost all of these rappers fall into. They're drug lords, crack kingpins, killers, gangstas or gang members, pimps...etc. The thing is, this isn't sexy anymore, nor entertaining or enlightening, and I kind of get embarrassed whenever I listen to it because it all seems like such a show. Not to mention things like The Wire completely obliterated any little remaining romance that was left in those kinds of lifestyles.

Yes, I know those archetypes have been in hip-hop since at least the late 80's, but at least when say Ice Cube was doing it, there felt like there was something behind the lyrics and he wasn't just following a paint-by-numbers guide to making records. In that 89-93 era, it felt like artists just talked about what they knew, and tried to convey their stories across in the most artful and lyrically impressive ways possible.

Now, it seems like people just fold those attributes into their music because they feel like they have to. Fat Joe, for as long as he's been around, seems like a cartoon character now. Lil Wayne and The Game, for as much potential talent as they both may have, are the same way. Along with artists like Rick Ross, T.I., or Jeezy who the "streets" may love, but feel like they were packaged and put together in board rooms to me.

That's the one thing I loved about Eminem. I never was a big fan of his music just for listening purposes, but I loved that he came into the game (when it was super stale) and talked about stuff we (or at least I) never heard talked about on a hip-hop record before. That is also why I am DYING to hear Andre 3000's next album, since he feels like one of the few mainstream artists (along with Common), who actually seems to have allowed himself to grown up and has the appropriate content to go with doing that. Lupe Fiasco is another one out there who is doing some fresh and unique stuff.

I don't know. There are definitely some great underground or non-mainstream acts that are making fresh, unique, and original sounding music and I applaud them.

I just personally know that even though it's my favorite genre of music, I don't really get excited about hip-hop that much anymore. Every once in a while I will stumble across a great record that entrances me. The latest actually was a Japanese rap group called Rip Slyme (even though I have no fucking clue what they're saying, it sounds great!) and a mixtape from this artist name Drake (whom was this kid actor on the new Degrassi of all things).

I'm going to be checking out some of the names mentioned in this thread that are new to me, so hopefully I will find something else to get into.

boredsilly

Holy shit, dude! I love the third song you posted, but had no idea there was a video for it. I wonder when and where they ever get played.

"I use the word hit in many sentences!"

Michael Corvin

Same here. Somewhere in the mid-90's all the 'fun' rap disappeared in favor of the 'hardcore' nonsense. Maybe didn't totally disappear but in that 80s-mid 90s time it seemed the 'fun' artists far outweighed the 'hardcore.' Everything got so serious.

Then again like boredsilly said, it seems to stretch out across other genres as well. Rock has sucked balls since about the same time period, mid-90s to present. Korn, Staind, Limp, Nickleback, Creed, etc.

Jason

He may have been able to write lyrics, but his delivery was terrible. Of course, a lot of that can be blamed on the production, too.

Jason

Abdominal freakin' rules!

dadaluholla

Another great MC to check out (and a favorite of mine) is Edan. Really great stuff.

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Rival11

Yes. I can't speak highly of my beloved genre either (Rock) - I try so hard to get into some of the new shit but it's just so bad.

darqleo

"Faith No More has been credited for influencing many of the nu metal bands such as Limp Bizkit, Korn, Linkin Park, among others." - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faith_no_more

I know wikipedia's not always FACT, but I'm too lazy to dig up the interviews that I remember reading, early in KORN's career, where they did list FNM as an influence. KORN came out of the ashes of a band called L.A.P.D. that formed in 1989, the same year FNM - "The Real Thing" (which "Epic" was on) came out.

Limp Bizkit and the rest of "nu metal bands" I imagine just spawned off the success of KORN, although I think the Deftones were around about the same time.

Speaking of rap/rock, ground zero for that is either the RUN-DMC collaboration with Aerosmith "Walk This Way" or Anthrax with Public Enemy "Bring The Noise", although some early rap bands sampled rock and metal early on (including RUN-DMC).