Hiro11

To me, metal has always been over the top and theatrical. Like 80's metal screams, death metal cookie monster vocals are just another aspect of that theatricallity. What matters more than the specific vocal mannerism adopted to me is how well the vocal sound integrates with the music. At their worst, death metal vocals definitely sound completely ridiculous and comical. At their best (example: the final few minutes of the title track off of "Blackwater Park") death metal vocals make the music that much more overpowering. That song is a tornado.

Of course, this all comes down to taste so no one's right.

B5Erik

You know, I would agree that there are songs where a "Death Metal" Cookie Monster growling vocal works very well - as an exclaimation mark.

BUT LIKE POSTING IN ALL CAPS ALL THE TIME IT GETS PRETTY STUPID PRETTY QUICKLY. IT LOSES IT'S DESIRED EFFECT AND JUST BECOMES ANNOYING.

Whereas using it as an exclaimation point TO ACCENT A KEY PART works really well. Just like posting a WORD OR PHRASE in all caps to make a point, it draws attention to that point and works like the exclaimation point from hell!!!!!!!!!

The key - to me - is to use it more sparingly. Of the Opeth songs I sampled NONE of them NEEDED the cookie monster vocals. Sure, using it the way I described would be A STROKE OF GENIUS, but they could go whole songs without using it and as long as their singer is a good writer and has a powerful NON-Cookie Monster voice and still have the desired effect - while broadening their potential fan base.

I can't tell you how many bands I've heard over the last 5 years where I heard the music intro and though, "HOLY SHIT BATMAN - THESE GUYS ARE AMAZING!," only to have the vocals come in a completely ruin it for me. I'd probably have another 50 CD's in my collection if these bands just SANG a majority of the time and used the cookie monster vocals sparingly as musical exclaimation marks.

Which is part of the reason I get REALLY excited whenever a band like Saxon puts out a new album.

kakihara1

dick_grayson

I'm curious what people think of this kind of singing. It's not as cookie monster-ish as other stuff.

Old Man's Child - Enslaved and Condemned

This is from their website, so I think it's okay to share

http://home.nedlinux.nl/~zero/oldman...mcenslaved.mp3

B5Erik

Not to make fun of it - but those vocals remind me of some evil alien monser-ish character I saw in some Sci-Fi tv show somewhere. I just find it hard to take that kind of thing seriously as music.

Practice What You Preach era Chuck Billy vocals are a great example of the type of vocals that have that rough edge, and bad ass attitude, that the heavier Metal calls for - without getting cartoonish.

joeblow69

I think it sounds cool... there's a whole ton of bands using those kinds of vocals.
Yeah, but even Chuck Billy got bored of that and started adding growlie vocals to their later albums

B5Erik

I know - Cookie Cutter Cookie Monster vocals...

No, Chuck Billy started following trends - but even when he started following that trend he didn't totally overdo it, he at least mixed it up.

joeblow69

No, I wouldn't classify those are cookie monster vocals, that's more of a raspy yelling. Cookie monster stuff is much lower, gutteral sounding.

Listen, we get it, you don't like that kind of music. But you're really starting to come off as a high and mighty type guy insulting the music that other people actually DO like. that's really not necessary...

B5Erik

No, I'm just pointing out why I don't like it and what I think about it. I'm sorry if my being honest bothers you.

I'll tell you this, though - I guarantee you that just about everyone who likes the ultra aggressive/growling/cookie monster Death Metal vocals will grow out of it. Can you honestly see anyone still listening to that at 50 or 60? I can't.

Now Iron Maiden, DIO, Saxon, etc - THOSE bands I CAN see people listening to at 50 or 60, not because they're not as heavy as the ultra-heavy bands that have come out over the last 10 or so years, but because they combine heavy music with a classy approach that is timeless.

And the thread is about SAXON - a classic Heavy Metal band from the New Wave Of British Heavy Metal (and a band that has managed to progress fairly nicely musically over the last 17 years without bowing to trends - something they didn't do in the late 80's). Saxon clearly isn't a "Death Metal" band, and this wasn't intended to be a Death Metal topic. (I've been a Metal fan for 30 years, but I just can't stand Death Metal - mostly because of the vocals. No intent to insult anyone who likes it, just my honest opinion.)

JOE29

I've got a few of the older Saxon cd's from the 80's, Denim and Leather, Wheels of Steel, Strong Arm of the Law. Crusader I bought soon after that but I didn't really care for and probably turned me off a bit to them after that. But after seeing those video clips I may try them out again with their more recent stuff.

joeblow69

Well back to the topic of Saxon, I actually went to itunes and checked out the samples for their latest album. All I can say is, if you really think you're going to be listening to that at 50, I hope you pack a lot of wine to go with those cheesy vocals!

B5Erik

You take your Death Metal Cookie Monster vocals, I'll take the guy who can sing. Each is an acquired taste, but I'd say that Biff's voice is a little easier on the ears and much more musical - and no more cheese than a good cheeseburger (the right amount to be good). But that's just my take...

Biff's got a very Ozzy-esque voice - only I like Biff better. (There's also a certain Bon Scott quality to his voice as well.) And, yes - I'll be listening to Saxon at 50, and 60... (I've been listening to them for 24 years, so I think it's a safe bet I'll be listening to them for as long as I'm still breathing.)

Again, this is one of my all-time favorite songs (kind of hard to argue against this one, which is fairly representative of Saxon over the last 17 years)...
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Phodg

Absolute garbage. I'm in my 40's, been going to gigs since 1978 and I still listen to and enjoy a hell of a lot of death metal. I find it a hell of a lot more interesting and inventive than Saxon plodding out the same old material for the last twenty plus years. Your guarantee is worthless.

B5Erik

See, the whole point of this thread is that Saxon HASN'T been plodding out the same old material for the last twenty plus years. They got on a roll in 1990 and are still on it - 8 studio albums in a row over the last 17 years - all very good to great, not a weak album in the bunch. Tons of great new material - and not the same old speedy boogie metal that they were playing in 1982. Saxon has progressed quite nicely musically.

If you like Death Metal, fine - good for you. Me? I don't like it, never have - and I got into Metallica when they came out with Ride the Lightning, Anthrax/Spreading the Disease, Megadeth/Killing Is My Business, etc. Those bands were (and to a degree still are) really heavy - they INVENTED Thrash! But they never, and will never, resorted to trying to have their vocals sound like some monster from a "c" grade Roger Corman movie. They dind't need to.

If you're in your 40's and are that ardent of a Death Metal supporter, that's great, I guess. I've seen Death Metal bands live - the most boring sets I've ever seen. 4 guys trying to look and sound tough, but who are in reality charismatically challenged by that very attempt to "appear" tough. It's all posturing - but without the sense of fun that traditional Metal has always had. When Iron Maiden or Saxon or Armored Saint does their posturing it's done with a bit of humor - they know it's a bit goofy, and they're just having fun. Death Metal bands (that I've seen) just don't get that. But then, Death Metal isn't supposed to be the least bit fun, I guess - it's more cathartic.

I'll stick with Saxon (and Maiden, and Dio, and Sabbath/Heaven & Hell, and Armored Saint, etc, etc).

(And I'd still bet you money that by the time you're 50 or 55 you'll feel silly listening to Death Metal as anything more than an academic excercise. It's not music for senior citizens - not even our generation of future senior citizens. It's for angry, disenfranchised youth, for the most part.)

Josh-da-man

Saxon is one of those bands that you might see opening up for someone, and they're not necessarily a bad band, they're capable but wholly unremarkable. And after you've seen them you just sort of forget about them. And then, five years later you'll see some guy in a parking lot wearing a Saxon shirt, and you'll remember that you saw them opening up for someone but can't remember who. And then you forget about them again.

And that reminds me... weren't they the inspiration for Spinal Tap?

Which pretty much sums them up.

B5Erik

That might be true of their late 80's output, but their early 80's material and their stuff from 1990 to now IS fairly remarkable and quite memorable.

Nope. Spinal Tap was created in the 70's (long before Saxon had ANY success - and even before Saxon's first album). McKean, Shearer, and Guest first unveiled the "group" in 1979 or 1980 on a TV show. I remember them saying that it was actually a straight ahead British Rock band, not a true Metal band that one of them watched go through a hotel lobby back in the 70's that was the seed that grew into Spinal Tap. Elements of a lot of bands - none of which were Saxon (as they had barely made a dent in the U.S. by 1982 when Spinal tap was filmed, so McKean, Guest, and Shearer didn't know who they were, and may not know to this day) - were incorporated to add the Heavy Metal aspects that took the whole thing over the top.

Guess not.

Phodg

Again, I disagree. You can take Metalhead, Unleash The Beast or Killing Ground (all of which I have heard) and plop them back in 1986 when Rock The Nations came out and to me they wouldn't sound any different. Saxon to me (and also a few others in this thread) are utterly generic.
And that's the point people have tried to make to you in this thread. You may not like death metal, but it doesn't make it any worse than the more radio-friendly metal you like. Personally, I can't stand the high-pitched power metal vocals used by bands like Iced Earth. I think they're horrible. But it doesn't make them any less relevant musically.
If you like Saxon, more power to you. But don't pretend you're on a higher musical appreciation level because others like different styles.

B5Erik

See, you missed the boat. You came in swinging - and I can appreciate your passion for the music you like (obviously I feel the same way about what I like), but this was a thread primarily about Saxon.

I honestly believe that they have been amazingly consistent over the last 17 years - 8 studio albums in a row without a weak release. Very few bands can say that, and within their straightforward, traditional part of the Heavy Metal genre Saxon have really been without peer over that time. Not even Iron Maiden or DIO have been that consistently good.

When Death Metal bands came up I merely noted that I could not stand the cookie monster vocals and that they annoyed the hell out of me and a couple Death Metal fans took that as a personal attack rather than a critique of the music form.

And I still think that Saxon's 90's and 00's albums are fantastic - and there are a hell of a lot of people in Europe who agree as Saxon is still fairly successful there - moreso than any Death Metal band!

Paradosis

Ahh, the old argument from incredulity. "I don't understand how it could be, ergo it can't be". That doesn't really get you far though, does it? I mean, let me try my hand at this. I don't understand how you'll be able to give an intelligent response to this. Done. Debate over. I win! See, I can't imagine it, therefore I'm right.

Obviously that doesn't make sense. That you lack imagination, or an advanced enough theory of mind to understand other people, doesn't mean that reality must follow along with your opinion.

Music for senior citizens? Like that dag blasted Rock and Roll? That's just a fad, don't you know? Can you imagine those kids listening to Led Zeppelin or the Rolling Stones, or (God forbid!) Black Sabbath when they're 50 or 55? These are the type of things people said a generation ago. Oops, seems like they were wrong. They couldn't understand how a mature, stable person could possible listen to that stuff. Isn't rock just for the rebellious and sexually over-active? You are using the same arguments that people used in the 60's... and you're both wrong.

True, some older people may feel silly listening to death metal, and may even stop because they feel silly. But why would they feel silly, because their attitudes vis-a-vis the music has changed, or is it because the culture around them bullies them into thinking that it's silly? Peer pressure isn't just a teenager thing. You, for example, are being a (musical) bully on this thread, albeit in a much more subtle way than most bullies.

This same conversation happens when it comes to all sorts of other things, especially video games. Those are for kids! Grown-ups don't play games! Yet the average age of a gamer these days is early 30's (that means that for all those teens playing games, there's probably also a lot of 40-somethings playing as well). Oh snap! I'm 28 years old now... but when I'm 58 I might be playing Madden 2037 and listening to a Mastodon CD? Could be, yep. And you? You'll be complaining how silly I am. So who is the angry one and who is the happy one again?

B5Erik

OK, Paradosis, let me ask you, don't you think that people grow and change with time? Do people not mature as they grow older?

Do the themes of Death Metal and the Cookie Monster vocals really apply to everyone across all demographics, or is the intent for a specific small slice of the demographic pie?

Death Metal is so damned heavy and angry that I just can't see how it could possibly apply to a 60 year old. I'm not saying that 60 year olds have to listen to Lawrence Welk or there's something wrong with them, but what I am saying is that what makes Death Metal so "cool" and interesting to young adults wears off over time.

Hell, traditional Metal from bands like Iron Maiden, Dio, and Saxon has lost its appeal to a fairly high percentage of Metal fans who grew into their 30's and 40's and couldn't handle the aggressive nature of the music in their high stress lives on a regular basis. We all know people who have "grown out" of Metal - even the really musical stuff with more substantive lyrics. Death Metal is much more extreme, and much less appealing as you grow up, get professional jobs, and have families. That's just the way life is. Some people will hang on to it, but most won't. You know that.

But bands like Maiden, Dio, Saxon, and hard rock bands like KISS, AC/DC, etc, have a more timeless appeal - look at how long they've been around! And even those bands have lost fans to aging and "maturing." It happens. A lot of people mellow out as they get older. (I can't relate to that myself, as I still listen to just about every album I've ever owned from the time I started buying Rock/Metal albums, but I've seen friends lose interest in Metal over time and get into mellower music.)

And if I stated my opinion on Death Metal vocals and it rubbed anyone the wrong way - well this wasn't a Death Metal thread, and to expect non-Death Metal fans to take those kind of vocals as anything other than silly and/or annoying isn't very realistic, is it? I never criticised anyone for liking them, just stated my opinion about the vocal style responding to a couple Death Metal posts - on a Saxon thread. I didn't jump into a Death Metal thread to do it.

Too bad this thread couldn't have stayed on topic.

Phodg

The topic of the thread is "Has there ever been a Metal band on this kind of a roll?", not " Has there ever been a Metal band other than Saxon on this kind of a roll?". Don't be surprised if non-Saxon fans chime in. Your mistake.
So as you get older you won't read any horror books any more or watch horror movies as they're more extreme than the latest George Clooney movie ? You have a very sad and boring retirement to look forward to if you think you'll become more and more narrow minded as you get older.
And bands like Maiden and Saxon have only been around longer because they started earlier. Many death metal bands are up around or even over the 20 year mark already. They may not get to 30 years just because the music (and vocals) are harder on you physically, but that's a different issue.

B5Erik

Indeed. I thought that the explicit "THIS KIND OF A ROLL," was specific to the band I was going to mention in the first post. And I don't think anyone mentioned another Metal band on a 17 year, 8 studio album run of that quality. (Close, but no cigar..)

I've never read any horror books in the first place - that genre in print never appealed to me. Not that it isn't good, it just never appealed to me.

Certainly not the SAW/Hostel brand of horror movie. Just not my cup of tea. Cruelty just doesn't work for me as entertainment. I prefer more psychological, moody thrillers to cruel gore-fests (or at least a Nightmare on Elm Street fantasy level horror movie).

Who said anything about narrow minded? How about BORED with stuff that doesn't relate to the experiences of someone who has lived more than half a century? People grow up, they mature - some things they hang on to (my dad is a HUGE Jazz fan, and has been since he was a teenager - he's 64 now), but other things just don't translate well to someone with that much life experience.

I can't see bands playing that kind of music into a third decade, but who knows? If they can keep winning over new fans it could happen - of course they'll probably go through multiple singers...

Look, if you end up liking Death Metal at 60, more power to you. I can't relate to it now, and I certainly won't be able to then - but why do you care?

The fact that most people DO have their tastes change over time doesn't make a particular genre any less valid - just more age/experience specific. The more melodic and less abrasive the music, the greater it's staying power - that's just a fact. Look, if I knew you (or anyone else) who thinks that there will be a group of senior citizens listening to Death Metal with any significant number making up that group in another 20 years I'd love to bet a nice chunk of change with you.

I know a fair number of people who listend to Black Sabbath, Deep Purple, and Led Zeppeling in the 70's who never listen to anything remotely that heavy now. They just can't hang with it anymore. It's kind of sad, but it happens. Hell, there are people that I went to high school with who were total metalheads who hardly ever listen to their old CD's anymore - they play the latest Bon Jovi or a Jazz CD instead, and we're talking about people only in their late 30's and early 40's.

It happens. I doubt it will happen to me as I've been listening to Hard Rock and Metal for 30 years now, and I'm just stubborn as hell, but I can't say that it's impossible.

Of course, that's part of the reason I have so much respect for Saxon, Dio, Maiden, etc - they've kept the faith and in some cases actually gotten a little heavier musically. They've certainly maintained a high level of quality. (Dio's had a couple slight misfires - Lock Up the Wolves and Magica, Maiden with The X Factor and Virtual XI, but overall they've done a really good job in continuing to put out really good albums.)

B5Erik

It's a shame that what was a good thread about Saxon had to deteriorate into this (why do I keep getting sucked into these arguments?). Again, so what if I think Death Metal Cookie Monster vocals are ridiculous? Start your own PRO-Death Metal thread! Don't start attacking people who don't like Death Metal (vocals), and threadcrapping on the topic at hand.




But I still say, on topic, that Saxon has had a run of albums that is pretty much without peer when it comes to being consistently good at what you do over an 8 album, 17 year span.

Iron Maiden's run lasted 6 albums and 7 years, really, before a noticeable drop off occurred.

Black Sabbath's album quality noticeably dropped off on album #4. Dio on album #5. Judas Priest had a good run of 5 albums before slipping a bit with Point of Entry, then picked it back up - WAY up - with Screaming for Vengeance, before having their quality slide with each successive album until Painkiller.

It really is hard to keep putting out very good to great albums more than 3 or 4 albums in a row. There is almost always a slip to merely good.