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-   -   Coyote vs Acme (2026) (https://forum.dvdtalk.com/movie-talk/654858-coyote-vs-acme-2026-a.html)

milo bloom 11-13-23 12:42 PM

re: Coyote vs Acme (2024)
 
Very exciting to see a release could happen.

GoldenJCJ 11-13-23 12:50 PM

re: Coyote vs Acme (2024)
 
Oh this could be released? Eh, I’ve lost interest in seeing it now.

;)

John Galt 11-13-23 01:05 PM

re: Coyote vs Acme (2024)
 

Originally Posted by tanman (Post 14349479)
I don't understand these tax write offs anymore. Did something change in tax code or something? Or more likely just creative overpriced lawyers finding loopholes. I've never heard of shelving entire projects like this just for a tax write off and now it's happening regularly. I mean how can they claim something as a loss if they never even released it? Shouldn't they have to release it first and subtract it's earnings from it's production cost to come up with a true profit loss?

Tax codes changes every year, but I don't know of anything specific that's changed regarding this.

I'm not familiar with film industry accounting standards, but from what I've read, there's certain amortization of expenses related to production costs that gets dragged out for 10-15 years as the company recognizes revenue from the film. So they've already spent $70MM to make the film. That's a sunk cost, that money has been spent and is gone. If they release it as was originally planned, they have to amortize that $70MM over the next 10-15 years. So if they released the film in late 2023, they would start expensing that $70MM against revenues in year one, and then finish expensing the last dollar somewhere between 2033 or 2038. I would expect this is accelerated and not straight line, so an example scenario might have expenses of $35MM in 2023-2024 when they receive the bulk of revenues from the theatrical release, $5MM each of the next five years as they rely on physical sales and streaming, and then $1.1MM over the next nine years as the movie's popularity has waned. By shelving the movie completely, they get to expense the entire $70MM in 2023. This creates a scenario where they rely on Time Value of Money calculations involving projected inflation rates and projected future federal and state corporate tax rates and determined that it's favorable to expense the full $70MM in 2023 using their marginal tax rate to reduce their tax liability by $30MM than to drag it out over 15 years.

You also have to remember that it's not just saving the company $30MM, but they're also not spending $100MM on marketing the movie and by not releasing it, they're not paying any bonuses based on actual performance of the movie, and they're not paying theaters any commissions for tickets sold.

dex14 11-13-23 01:45 PM

re: Coyote vs Acme (2024)
 

After Batgirl and Scoob! were dumped, a group of filmmakers with business at the studio started a text chain — a support group of sorts — to share their hopes and their anxieties, as well as encouragement and tips for navigating the studio. The one question all of them had: What was going on with their movies?

The Coyote cancelation roiled the creative community perhaps even harder than Batgirl and Scoob!, because those had been positioned as a one-off change in strategy, never to happen again. According to sources, after the Coyote vs. Acme news broke last week, several filmmakers instructed reps to cancel meetings they had on the books with Warners. But now that Coyote may ultimately find a new home, these filmmakers are taking a wait-and-see approach.

Unlike the other films Warners canceled, Coyote vs. Acme was fully completed and had tested multiple times in the 90s. (Best picture winner Argo, both Deadpool movies, and the first The Conjuring are among features that likewise tested in the 90s.) According to sources who have seen the film — which stars Will Forte, John Cena and Lana Condor — Coyote vs. Acme is a popcorn-style crowd-pleaser.

“Coyote vs. Acme is a great movie,” tweeted writer-director BenDavid Grabinski, who worked with Green on Happily. “The best of its kind since [Who Framed] Roger Rabbit … The leads are super likable. It’s beautifully shot. The animation is great. The ending makes everyone fucking cry. I thought the goal of this business was to make hit movies?”

After Batgirl was shelved, a narrative emerged that the film was axed because it wasn’t very good. “Our job is to protect the DC brand, and that’s what we’re going to do,” Warner Bros. Discovery CEO Zaslav declared during 2022 investor’s call days after the cancelation. Peter Safran, who became the head of DC Studios after Batgirl was shelved, said the team behind the film was talented, but that Batgirl “was not releasable” in remarks to press in January.

Green’s industry friends mobilized to prevent that kind of messaging from tainting the reputation of Coyote vs. Acme. There is still a planned “funeral screening” this week on the Warners lot, according to sources, though “funeral” is no longer an apt term for a project that may very well find new life.

“I don’t know how you see the movie and then go, ‘That couldn’t happen to me,’” says Brian Duffield, the filmmaker behind the sleeper Hulu hit No One Will Save You. Duffield was not involved in Coyote vs. Acme, but is friends with Green and gave notes on the film.

Part of Duffield’s frustration, he says, was that Green did everything that was asked of him: he delivered the film, which sources say cost $72 million, on budget. He hit the right test scores. He even moved away from his friends and family to London for 18 months to save the studio money on post-production costs. All this, only to see his film get run off a cliff.

Duffield believes that Coyote can make money — certainly more than the tax write-off.

“I think Coyote is really similar to Barbie in a lot of ways,” says Duffield. “They are playing with iconography in a really fun, popcorn kind of way.”

Veteran film executives acknowledge that shelving a film for a tax-writeoff — and to avoid distribution and marketing costs — can make an earnings quarter look better, but it can be short-sighted for a studio in the business of building franchises and a slate.

The decision followed the industry taking a hard turn from a streaming boom golden age that saw studios shelling out unprecedented billions on content, particularly titles related to a familiar IP like Coyote vs. Acme. Some saw Warners’ bottom-line ruthlessness as less of a new way of mistreating talent than a return to how Hollywood used to be.

“The idea that there was a little window there where a lot of people got to try a lot of stuff they wouldn’t have gotten to try in normal circumstances, that’s the anomaly,” one top writer-producer said. “The kind of red tooth and claw version of [conducting business], the nastiness — I think that’s the norm.”

Still, it’s easy to imagine that if an in-demand creative has an all-things-being-equal choice of going with Warners or another studio in the future, that Zaslav’s aggressive tax strategies could give real pause — even with the reversal. Zaslav previously reversed an unpopular decision — the gutting of TCM — after an outcry from creatives including Steven Spielberg, Martin Scorsese and Paul Thomas Anderson.

Interestingly, the plot of Coyote vs. Acme follows the speechless, ever-determined Wile E. Coyote as he teams up with a lawyer (Forte) to fight the big ACME corporation. Just like in the cartoons, Coyote buys ACME devices to try and kill Road Runner, but they never work properly, and often abruptly explode. The third shelved Warners movie, in other words, is the story of an underdog taking on a heartless company whose executives don’t realize there can be real consequences to making their products blow up in your face.
https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/mo...lm-1235645372/

rocket1312 11-13-23 02:21 PM

re: Coyote vs Acme (2024)
 

Originally Posted by GoldenJCJ (Post 14349698)
Oh this could be released? Eh, I’ve lost interest in seeing it now.

;)

Ha! That's exactly what I was thinking. I'm sure 90% of the people online who were "outraged" by this will never actually see the movie.* They don't really care. It's just something to get mad about.

*This isn't directed at anyone specifically in this thread, so don't come at me about how you're a passionate patron of animation (and the works of John Cena) and that you're going to see this 17 times.

milo bloom 11-13-23 04:03 PM

re: Coyote vs Acme (2024)
 
James Gunn is on Threads and just posted a picture of Wile E. Coyote stirring a pot.

No other comments but all the replies are making “let him cook” comments.

Decker 11-13-23 04:11 PM

re: Coyote vs Acme (2024)
 
Since WB is walking away from this one, I wonder what Gunn could possibly have to do with it now.

dex14 11-13-23 04:21 PM

re: Coyote vs Acme (2024)
 

Originally Posted by Decker (Post 14349807)
Since WB is walking away from this one, I wonder what Gunn could possibly have to do with it now.

He produced it and has story credit. Who distributes it doesn’t change his involvement.

Decker 11-13-23 04:31 PM

re: Coyote vs Acme (2024)
 

Originally Posted by dex14 (Post 14349814)
He produced it and has story credit. Who distributes it doesn’t change his involvement.

I didn't realize that he was involved creatively with it. Makes it even more baffling that they tried to kill it.

Michael Corvin 11-13-23 08:59 PM

re: Coyote vs Acme (2024)
 
Hopefully creatives do walk away from Warners. They're setting a very bad precedent and shelving movies for tax benefits shouldn't be swept under the rug. I imagine they can look forward to seeing "anti-shelving" clauses in contracts with big payouts by the creatives that choose to work with WB in the near future.

With this being a pattern now over at WB it makes you wonder if Batgirl was that bad or just a distraction to avoid excess media attention on the tax write off part of the discussion.

Abob Teff 11-13-23 09:22 PM

re: Coyote vs Acme (2024)
 

Originally Posted by rocket1312 (Post 14349751)
Ha! That's exactly what I was thinking. I'm sure 90% of the people online who were "outraged" by this will never actually see the movie.* They don't really care. It's just something to get mad about.

*This isn't directed at anyone specifically in this thread, so don't come at me about how you're a passionate patron of animation (and the works of John Cena) and that you're going to see this 17 times.

Just for the record, I am an admirer of the armbreaking antics and acting auspices of John Cena and a prudently passionate patron of animation, so I will be seeing [checks notes] . . . Is this right? This is a court case, not a movie. It is a movie? OK . . . [ahem] Acme Corporations Versus the Wild Coyotes at least seventeen times in IMAX 3D Premium Sounds with Acme Explosive Seating Attachments.

RocShemp 11-13-23 09:27 PM

re: Coyote vs Acme (2024)
 

Originally Posted by Michael Corvin (Post 14349953)

With this being a pattern now over at WB it makes you wonder if Batgirl was that bad or just a distraction to avoid excess media attention on the tax write off part of the discussion.

I was wondering about that lately. It was easy for me to take the negative claims at face value, given how much I disliked the directors' previous work, but now I wonder if all such claims were smoke and mirrors.

Then again, the cynic in me wonders if the claims of shelving this film, despite its high test scores, is nothing but an absurd publicity stunt.

Decker 11-13-23 09:30 PM

re: Coyote vs Acme (2024)
 

Originally Posted by RocShemp (Post 14349968)
I was wondering about that lately. It was easy for me to take the negative claims at face value, given how much I disliked the directors' previous work, but now I wonder if all such claims were smoke and mirrors.

.

Counterpoint: WB thought that The Flash was a really good superhero movie that starred Michael Keaton as Batman. They thought Batgirl was a lot worse than that.

dex14 11-14-23 10:01 AM

re: Coyote vs Acme (2024)
 

GoldenJCJ 11-14-23 11:14 AM

re: Coyote vs Acme (2024)
 
“Burning down a building for the insurance money” is exactly what it is.

But in today’s world, I guess that makes WB smart.

PerryD 11-14-23 11:23 AM

re: Coyote vs Acme (2024)
 

Originally Posted by GoldenJCJ (Post 14350169)
“Burning down a building for the insurance money” is exactly what it is.

But in today’s world, I guess that makes WB smart.

Where do they get the valuation of the cost of the movie though? It seems like it could be rife for money laundering since there are literally thousands of people listed in the credits including the caterer or person that holds coat or whatever. How much of the reported budget can be accounted for?

John Galt 11-14-23 12:06 PM

re: Coyote vs Acme (2024)
 

Originally Posted by PerryD (Post 14350173)
Where do they get the valuation of the cost of the movie though? It seems like it could be rife for money laundering since there are literally thousands of people listed in the credits including the caterer or person that holds coat or whatever. How much of the reported budget can be accounted for?

WBD is a publicly traded company. They have annual financial audits and report quarterly and annual earnings.

d2cheer 11-14-23 12:34 PM

re: Coyote vs Acme (2024)
 

Originally Posted by rocket1312 (Post 14349751)
Ha! That's exactly what I was thinking. I'm sure 90% of the people online who were "outraged" by this will never actually see the movie.* They don't really care. It's just something to get mad about.

*This isn't directed at anyone specifically in this thread, so don't come at me about how you're a passionate patron of animation (and the works of John Cena) and that you're going to see this 17 times.

Exactly

No interest before or after.

When it bombs who is justified?

Why So Blu? 11-14-23 12:36 PM

re: Coyote vs Acme (2024)
 
Yeah, I didn't know this was even a thing.

Decker 11-14-23 12:45 PM

re: Coyote vs Acme (2024)
 

Originally Posted by d2cheer (Post 14350210)

When it bombs who is justified?

When it bombs can't they still write it off? I seriously don't know, but usually business losses are tax deductible.

John Galt 11-14-23 12:52 PM

re: Coyote vs Acme (2024)
 

Originally Posted by Decker (Post 14350220)
When it bombs can't they still write it off? I seriously don't know, but usually business losses are tax deductible.


Originally Posted by John Galt (Post 14349709)
I'm not familiar with film industry accounting standards, but from what I've read, there's certain amortization of expenses related to production costs that gets dragged out for 10-15 years as the company recognizes revenue from the film. So they've already spent $70MM to make the film. That's a sunk cost, that money has been spent and is gone. If they release it as was originally planned, they have to amortize that $70MM over the next 10-15 years. So if they released the film in late 2023, they would start expensing that $70MM against revenues in year one, and then finish expensing the last dollar somewhere between 2033 or 2038. I would expect this is accelerated and not straight line, so an example scenario might have expenses of $35MM in 2023-2024 when they receive the bulk of revenues from the theatrical release, $5MM each of the next five years as they rely on physical sales and streaming, and then $1.1MM over the next nine years as the movie's popularity has waned. By shelving the movie completely, they get to expense the entire $70MM in 2023. This creates a scenario where they rely on Time Value of Money calculations involving projected inflation rates and projected future federal and state corporate tax rates and determined that it's favorable to expense the full $70MM in 2023 using their marginal tax rate to reduce their tax liability by $30MM than to drag it out over 15 years.

Whether the film results in a gain or a loss, they're deductible. There's nothing abnormal about this. Whether they shelve the movie just creates a different timing scenario for how the expenses are treated.

fujishig 11-14-23 02:01 PM

re: Coyote vs Acme (2024)
 

Originally Posted by Decker (Post 14349970)
Counterpoint: WB thought that The Flash was a really good superhero movie that starred Michael Keaton as Batman. They thought Batgirl was a lot worse than that.

They thought Flash was a more marketable movie and they were right. I'm sure there were a lot of other calculations done that made it so that they had to release that Flash movie and not write it off like Batgirl besides quality.

Ash Ketchum 11-14-23 02:43 PM

re: Coyote vs Acme (2024)
 
Why isn't Asylum doing rip-off versions of the WB tax write-offs? The biggest budget item they'd require is a good legal team to make sure they're not violating any of Warner's copyrights. Oh, and a good marketing team to make members of the public think they're the actual WB versions. Sounds like a ripe opportunity for them. (Is Asylum actually still in business?)

Adam Tyner 11-14-23 02:52 PM

re: Coyote vs Acme (2024)
 

Originally Posted by Ash Ketchum (Post 14350272)
(Is Asylum actually still in business?)

They are!

Hazel Motes 11-16-23 04:58 AM

re: Coyote vs Acme (2024)
 
Hey come see this movie that another studio thought was so awful that they tried to erase it from history.

I wish there was a way that all the creatives involved could sue for defamation.


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