Movies where the villain was in the right
11-09-20, 02:32 AM
#1
DVD Talk Gold Edition
Thread Starter
Movies where the villain was in the right
What flicks do you like where the villain actually has a valid or even correct point of view? For me it's "Man of Steel." General Zod was doing his duty for his people. Ruthlessly, I'll grant you, but he had a valid argument.
Yours?
Yours?
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MLBFan24 (11-09-20)
11-09-20, 05:52 AM
#3
DVD Talk Legend
Re: Movies where the villain was in the right
How is Zod "in the right?"
His initial plan is to turn Earth into a new Krypton. How many humans was he planning on killing with that plan? Then he just decides to destroy the planet and kill everything.
We might as well get this straight right away since you started this thread. Does your version of "in the right" mean that "the villain" personally views their actions as justifiable? Because that would describe every movie villain ever. Even Joe Chill thought he was entitled to Thomas Wayne's wallet. Hans Gruber admits that he does not have a larger political agenda than stealing someone else's money, but he believes he has a right to that money.
Sorry to go here so early in the morning, but ethics are a real thing. Obviously Hitler thought he was doing right (and his duty) by "his people."
11-09-20, 06:22 AM
#4
DVD Talk Hall of Fame
Re: Movies where the villain was in the right
There's also the issue of anti-heroes. Audience roots for the bad guy, and against the good guys. Butch and Sundance were the villains and the posse that was chasing them were the good guys. List is endless, Bonnie and Clyde, Jesse James, Billy the Kid, Death Wish.
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Giantrobo (11-09-20)
11-09-20, 10:14 AM
#5
Re: Movies where the villain was in the right
I think you could say in the principal in Ferris Bueller's Day Off was right. Ferris was lying about being sick. He did tamper with school records. He faked that family death to get his girlfriend out of school. He was a spoiled, rich, entitled brat (waaa! My parents bought me an expensive computer when I wanted a car! waa!). The principal was trying to do the right thing reigning in a lost kid, who having gotten away with everything, is only going to become worse as he gets older.
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11-09-20, 10:26 AM
#6
DVD Talk Special Edition
Re: Movies where the villain was in the right
Some divorced men having to pay an ex alimony, would have viewed Thanos as a hero.
11-09-20, 10:30 AM
#7
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Re: Movies where the villain was in the right
Leatherface in Texas Chainsaw 3D (2013)...he was just defending his house and family legacy. nothing wrong with that.
11-09-20, 10:32 AM
#8
DVD Talk Hero
Re: Movies where the villain was in the right
How "in the right" do you mean? Because often they make the villain do something cold blooded to invoke the audience to go to the desired side.
Veidt in Watchmen, of course, but that's the source material.
I'd say Killmonger in Black Panther:
Obviously there are problems with his methods, I won't argue that (though you can argue that the isolationist policy of Wakanda given the state of the world and racial relations in it was terrible and that he had a point). But he won that trial fair and square and the only reason T'challa lived was blatant interference... then the only reason he was allowed to challenge again was because people didn't like that Killmonger was an outsider and that he was an ahole. But if you want to talk honor and all that, he was the rightful king of Wakanda, and T'challa accepted the challenge himself (whereas Killmonger never accepted T'challa's challenge)
Veidt in Watchmen, of course, but that's the source material.
I'd say Killmonger in Black Panther:
Obviously there are problems with his methods, I won't argue that (though you can argue that the isolationist policy of Wakanda given the state of the world and racial relations in it was terrible and that he had a point). But he won that trial fair and square and the only reason T'challa lived was blatant interference... then the only reason he was allowed to challenge again was because people didn't like that Killmonger was an outsider and that he was an ahole. But if you want to talk honor and all that, he was the rightful king of Wakanda, and T'challa accepted the challenge himself (whereas Killmonger never accepted T'challa's challenge)
11-09-20, 10:38 AM
#9
DVD Talk Hero
Re: Movies where the villain was in the right
Sorry, but you're going to have to explain that POV a little more.
How is Zod "in the right?"
His initial plan is to turn Earth into a new Krypton. How many humans was he planning on killing with that plan? Then he just decides to destroy the planet and kill everything.
We might as well get this straight right away since you started this thread. Does your version of "in the right" mean that "the villain" personally views their actions as justifiable? Because that would describe every movie villain ever. Even Joe Chill thought he was entitled to Thomas Wayne's wallet. Hans Gruber admits that he does not have a larger political agenda than stealing someone else's money, but he believes he has a right to that money.
Sorry to go here so early in the morning, but ethics are a real thing. Obviously Hitler thought he was doing right (and his duty) by "his people."
How is Zod "in the right?"
His initial plan is to turn Earth into a new Krypton. How many humans was he planning on killing with that plan? Then he just decides to destroy the planet and kill everything.
We might as well get this straight right away since you started this thread. Does your version of "in the right" mean that "the villain" personally views their actions as justifiable? Because that would describe every movie villain ever. Even Joe Chill thought he was entitled to Thomas Wayne's wallet. Hans Gruber admits that he does not have a larger political agenda than stealing someone else's money, but he believes he has a right to that money.
Sorry to go here so early in the morning, but ethics are a real thing. Obviously Hitler thought he was doing right (and his duty) by "his people."
The Kryptonian plan was to make this world into a world just like Krypton, robbing them of their powers, then reseeding the world with... I dunno, some kind of computer or something that was embedded in Superman's brain. Ok. So to do so they want to wipe out the entire planet of people already living there. I'm not sure how you could justify that unless you think that humans were so far beneath them or something, in which case the bad guys in hundreds of films featuring monsters, space aliens, and even Mother Nature (sharks, heck even the Happening) attacking and killing humans is on the up and up.
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11-09-20, 02:10 PM
#13
Administrator
Re: Movies where the villain was in the right
Man of Steel was so stupid. And that's before even getting into that twister scene, or having Superman kill someone on his first day on the job.
The Kryptonian plan was to make this world into a world just like Krypton, robbing them of their powers, then reseeding the world with... I dunno, some kind of computer or something that was embedded in Superman's brain. Ok. So to do so they want to wipe out the entire planet of people already living there. I'm not sure how you could justify that unless you think that humans were so far beneath them or something, in which case the bad guys in hundreds of films featuring monsters, space aliens, and even Mother Nature (sharks, heck even the Happening) attacking and killing humans is on the up and up.
The Kryptonian plan was to make this world into a world just like Krypton, robbing them of their powers, then reseeding the world with... I dunno, some kind of computer or something that was embedded in Superman's brain. Ok. So to do so they want to wipe out the entire planet of people already living there. I'm not sure how you could justify that unless you think that humans were so far beneath them or something, in which case the bad guys in hundreds of films featuring monsters, space aliens, and even Mother Nature (sharks, heck even the Happening) attacking and killing humans is on the up and up.
On-topic, the obvious is Thanos' goal of preventing universal ecological disaster... But even if his plan to murder trillions wasn't unethical, it still makes no sense because all ecosystems would have consumers of a greater portion of resources (at least as far as we could extrapolate with sentient species), so killing at random both leaves the chance that those outsized consumers remain alive and that minds capable of solving these issues for their respective planets long-term could be killed.
Thunderbolt Ross, also from Marvel is a contender. At the end of the day, he doesn't want people of mass destruction acting unilaterally and unfettered.
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John Pannozzi (11-09-20)
11-09-20, 02:19 PM
#14
DVD Talk Hero
Re: Movies where the villain was in the right
Also, examining the options: terraform Earth (did they say why they couldn't just go to Mars or Venus?) immediately and make your single diplomatic link useless, all to become basically regular humans OR wait a few years while Zod's team adapts to Earth and gets insane superpowers, at which point you could easily take over the world and enact your first plan more easily if you decided to.
On-topic, the obvious is Thanos' goal of preventing universal ecological disaster... But even if his plan to murder trillions wasn't unethical, it still makes no sense because all ecosystems would have consumers of a greater portion of resources (at least as far as we could extrapolate with sentient species), so killing at random both leaves the chance that those outsized consumers remain alive and that minds capable of solving these issues for their respective planets long-term could be killed.
Thunderbolt Ross, also from Marvel is a contender. At the end of the day, he doesn't want people of mass destruction acting unilaterally and unfettered.
On-topic, the obvious is Thanos' goal of preventing universal ecological disaster... But even if his plan to murder trillions wasn't unethical, it still makes no sense because all ecosystems would have consumers of a greater portion of resources (at least as far as we could extrapolate with sentient species), so killing at random both leaves the chance that those outsized consumers remain alive and that minds capable of solving these issues for their respective planets long-term could be killed.
Thunderbolt Ross, also from Marvel is a contender. At the end of the day, he doesn't want people of mass destruction acting unilaterally and unfettered.
The main problem with it is it is still delaying the inevitable, when you could have used that power to limit consumption in another way. But then people won't learn their lesson and repeat the same mistakes no matter what.
The other comic book supervillain who is often quoted as "right" is Magneto. Basically the Malcolm X of Mutants, but in almost every future scenario, humankind wipes out mutants with their robots, and it's not like Xavier ever makes giant strides to coexistence (the current X-books are a hoot in terms of mutants segregating themselves from mankind, by the way).
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11-09-20, 02:28 PM
#15
DVD Talk Limited Edition
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IBJoel (11-09-20)
11-09-20, 02:30 PM
#16
Administrator
Re: Movies where the villain was in the right
The good part about Thanos's plan (which would be impossible in any political climate) is that it was, by all accounts, completely random. Yeah, you probably set back civilization in a lot of these places by killing the wrong dozen people, but even if you happen to have a greater percentage of overconsumers live, that 50% cut is a huge deal (and those overconsumers probably count on a bunch of other factors that are now gone). Heck, even his lieutenants were affected, and he didn't even intentionally protect himself. That's purity of motive right there. For the good of the galaxy and not his own well being. It was actually much more effective a reasoning than comic book Thanos who is in love with Death.
The main problem with it is it is still delaying the inevitable, when you could have used that power to limit consumption in another way. But then people won't learn their lesson and repeat the same mistakes no matter what.
The other comic book supervillain who is often quoted as "right" is Magneto. Basically the Malcolm X of Mutants, but in almost every future scenario, humankind wipes out mutants with their robots, and it's not like Xavier ever makes giant strides to coexistence (the current X-books are a hoot in terms of mutants segregating themselves from mankind, by the way).
The main problem with it is it is still delaying the inevitable, when you could have used that power to limit consumption in another way. But then people won't learn their lesson and repeat the same mistakes no matter what.
The other comic book supervillain who is often quoted as "right" is Magneto. Basically the Malcolm X of Mutants, but in almost every future scenario, humankind wipes out mutants with their robots, and it's not like Xavier ever makes giant strides to coexistence (the current X-books are a hoot in terms of mutants segregating themselves from mankind, by the way).
I see the randomness as an actual flaw in Thanos' plan, rather than a strength. Although looking at wealth distribution on our Earth has something to do with that and I know we aren't supposed to think about it that much (like does he kill 50% of all life or 50% of sentient or dominant species? How does killing 50% of all life solve the food shortages that was a specific issue he mentioned?).
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John Pannozzi (11-09-20)
11-09-20, 03:36 PM
#17
DVD Talk Godfather & 2020 TOTY Winner
Re: Movies where the villain was in the right
The good part about Thanos's plan (which would be impossible in any political climate) is that it was, by all accounts, completely random. Yeah, you probably set back civilization in a lot of these places by killing the wrong dozen people, but even if you happen to have a greater percentage of overconsumers live, that 50% cut is a huge deal (and those overconsumers probably count on a bunch of other factors that are now gone). Heck, even his lieutenants were affected, and he didn't even intentionally protect himself. That's purity of motive right there. For the good of the galaxy and not his own well being. It was actually much more effective a reasoning than comic book Thanos who is in love with Death.
The main problem with it is it is still delaying the inevitable, when you could have used that power to limit consumption in another way. But then people won't learn their lesson and repeat the same mistakes no matter what.
The main problem with it is it is still delaying the inevitable, when you could have used that power to limit consumption in another way. But then people won't learn their lesson and repeat the same mistakes no matter what.
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IBJoel (11-09-20)
11-09-20, 03:41 PM
#18
DVD Talk Godfather & 2020 TOTY Winner
Re: Movies where the villain was in the right
Dean Wormer wanted the worst behaved, worst performing academically , and worst looking fraternity -- full of cheating students who are breaking campus rules and state laws and sexually assaulting women-- removed from his University. He was a dick, but as a University Chancellor, he wasn't wrong. *
* God, I think this opinion means I am officially OLD
* God, I think this opinion means I am officially OLD
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11-09-20, 04:09 PM
#19
DVD Talk Hero
Re: Movies where the villain was in the right
I forgot about Magneto, d'oh.
I see the randomness as an actual flaw in Thanos' plan, rather than a strength. Although looking at wealth distribution on our Earth has something to do with that and I know we aren't supposed to think about it that much (like does he kill 50% of all life or 50% of sentient or dominant species? How does killing 50% of all life solve the food shortages that was a specific issue he mentioned?).
I see the randomness as an actual flaw in Thanos' plan, rather than a strength. Although looking at wealth distribution on our Earth has something to do with that and I know we aren't supposed to think about it that much (like does he kill 50% of all life or 50% of sentient or dominant species? How does killing 50% of all life solve the food shortages that was a specific issue he mentioned?).
He killed half of all living things. So yes, half of all humans which helps with overpopulation, but also half of all livestock and half of all crops. His plan was stupid but did increase mineral resources for the remaining population. Maybe he had a big interest in fossil fuels.
On a side note I've (finally) continued reading Robert Kirkman's "other" comic, Invincible (I have never read the last few volumes). There are basically two villains that come in near the end of the run (spoilers for Invincible, which is coming soon as a cartoon)
Spoiler:
Anyway, Thanos and his "logic" reminded me of both of those, and I'd consider both of those instances where technically the villain was right. But that goes to any moral dilemma, where you, say, have to kill 1 person to save 1000, or a situation like the Matrix where people's lives are arguably better off being deceived and food for the machines.
11-09-20, 11:13 PM
#22
DVD Talk Hero
Re: Movies where the villain was in the right
11-09-20, 11:47 PM
#23
DVD Talk Godfather
Re: Movies where the villain was in the right
I couldn't think of my own, but Principal Rooney from Ferris Bueller is my favorite one posted so far. Magneto is a close second.
11-10-20, 07:28 AM
#24
DVD Talk Hero
Re: Movies where the villain was in the right
Considering Beauty and the Beast is really the story of an abusive relationship that could have easily resulted in the death of Belle’s father, I don’t think Gaston was wrong to try and rescue her.
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Alan Smithee (11-28-20)
11-10-20, 09:07 AM
#25
DVD Talk Legend
Re: Movies where the villain was in the right
