Does logical plotting matter to you?
 

I have been thinking of this for a while, but I realized that I do not like movies that are terribly plotted.

This was crystallized by TLJ. I dont dislike TLJ because of a lot of the SW specific nits, but because at it's core it is a truly terrible story with ludicrous, illogical, ridiculous and outright dumb plotting.

But I see it a lot these days. Nolan's movies are filled with incredibly dumb and unbelievable plot elements and holes and tons of things that make absolutely no sense whatsover.

It seems a lot of movie goers are OK with ludicrous brain dead plotting as long as it leads to something cool in the story, even if it does not hold up to even minor scrutiny.

And blockbusters are not even the only ones guilty. Even the potential best picture Three Billboards... has some seriously dumb and contrived plot points in that second half (along with some annoyingly cliched characters) yet it is winning scripting awards.

So just wondering if a logical, well thought out and realistic plot is important to peoples enjoyment of movies or if it is just very far back in the list of things that make a movie enjoyable for you.

Re: Does logical plotting matter to you?
 

Some movies that are considered to be the greatest or most iconic of all time have plot holes or “dumb or unbelievable” elements. You’ve got to be careful going down this road, because you might run into the person who knows and hates that plot hole in a favorite movie, or realize that being “objective” about things of this nature will leave very few films to deem worthwhile.

Ultimately, it boils down to whether someone likes the piece of work or not, or the director responsible for it. I’ve observed people ragging all over popular movies from “it” directors, then turn around and defend others with glaring issues.

It isn’t a cut-and-dry thing.

Re: Does logical plotting matter to you?
 

Most of the time I find concise plotting essential.

Re: Does logical plotting matter to you?
 

Uh oh...Johnnysd pulled an Oldboy, as this could be discussed in The Last Jedi thread.

I would hope that the film I pay good money to see was put together by folks who at least attempted to string together a series of events in some type of coherent manner otherwise you end up with a bunch of scenes just smashed up against one another with no understanding of why action X by Captain Bob in one scene fits in with what Lieutenant Morgan just did in the scene that follows. Those types of films can end up not just being so bad that they are good but just plain bad films.

While I was entertained by the "final" Resident Evil film I am glad I ended up seeing it on cable, fun to watch or not it really was just a series of "cool" scenes that were smashed together to get you from the beginning of the film to the end with a startling lack of connective tissue to tie one scene in the film to the other (Stuckmann rightfully had major issues with this in his review), so I would have had this nagging feeling of being entertained yet majorly disappointed if I had paid to see it in theaters.

Re: Does logical plotting matter to you?
 

Depends.

Re: Does logical plotting matter to you?
 

My feelings exactly.

Depends on the genre. Realistic nonfiction/historical or serious storytelling ... logical plotting helps.

Horror/Fantasy/Sci-Fi .... sometimes illogical elements work well, especially when dealing with the unknown.

Re: Does logical plotting matter to you?
 

I agree.
Some genres can get away with < stellar plotting.

Re: Does logical plotting matter to you?
 

Good plotting and proper internal logic are a must, I'm okay with some hazy details though (not everything needs to be spelled out)

Re: Does logical plotting matter to you?
 

stvn1974?

I'd argue that what you find "ludicrous, illogical, ridiculous and outright dumb plotting" is subjective.

Re: Does logical plotting matter to you?
 

Agree.

One giant plot hole in an otherwise fun, entertaining movie might not bother me at all or a tiny plot hole in a movie that doesn’t strike a chord with me can completey grate on my nerves. :shrug:

One that immediately comes to mind is the ending of Signs. A giant plot hole, I agree. Yet I still rank it as my top film of 2002.

Re: Does logical plotting matter to you?
 

Here are three bugs that really get up my ass:

1. Coincidence. (Rey is living on a planet where she's next door to the map to Luke's secret location and the Millennium Falcon. Only works if she has some connection to the OT crew.)

2. Smart people doing stupid things to advance the plot. (Prometheus, where the biologist gets bitten.)

3. People withholding crucial information from each other for the sole purpose of creating conflict. (Poe vs Holdo; every episode of Lost.)

Re: Does logical plotting matter to you?
 

I was watching Hitchcock's VERTIGO (1958) on TCM recently for the first time in years, a film many critics consider one of the best ever made, and it occurred to me as I watched that a number of key plot points made no sense. So I went on a classic movie site on Facebook that includes a pair of longtime personal friends of mine, alongside whom I developed my love of classic cinema in film school over four decades ago, and I wrote out a point-by-point dissection of these plot points and how implausible they were--not as an attack or critique of the film, simply as an exercise shared among a group of fans that have all seen and loved the film over the years. You'd think I'd entered a temple and set fire to a sacred text or something.

But, yeah, except for certain fantasy and action genres, illogical plotting and absurdities bother me more and more as I get older. And things like ordinary people suffering physical punishment that would have killed 20 men and getting up and continuing unscathed, as if nothing happened to them. This is why I've started to stay away from so many contemporary Hollywood action movies. Even when I like the film, e.g. SALT with Angelina Jolie, it gnaws at me, i.e. the scene where she leaps off a fast-moving subway car. I mean, such a move would kill Schwarzenegger or The Rock, let alone Ms. Jolie.

Re: Does logical plotting matter to you?
 

What doesn't make sense in Vertigo? I have not seen it in sometime but nothing is popping up in my head. Just curious.

Re: Does logical plotting matter to you?
 

I typically don't surgically dissect movies and look for things that don't fit. If, at the end of a movie, I decide that I've been entertained, that's what most matters to me. If I were to surgically dissect every movie I watched I'm afraid I would have to give up watching them, throw them all in the trash, and be done with watching movies. I don't ever want to be like that.

Re: Does logical plotting matter to you?
 

Exactly. How would "Mulholland Drive" play-out with a logical plot.

Re: Does logical plotting matter to you?
 

I dunno, Mulholland Drive is pretty coherent.

Re: Does logical plotting matter to you?
 

:up:

One that I hate is when you can tell the plot was clearly an afterthought to a different goal (to sell toys, vacation w/friends, etc.).

One that comes to mind (because the sequel thread was just bumped) but Mission: Impossible Ghost Protocol comes across as the three action pieces came first (Cruise wanted to scale the Burj) and then a plot came later to string them together.

The last couple of Fast & Furious movies have elements of that too. Cars on ice! Cars falling out of planes! Tank on a freeway!

Re: Does logical plotting matter to you?
 

Heh, that entirely depends on who you ask.

Re: Does logical plotting matter to you?
 

Ash, my feelings are hurt that you posted your Vertigo thoughts on some other movie forum and not here at dvdtalk.

Re: Does logical plotting matter to you?
 

It depends on how serious the movie is trying to tell me it is. If its a slasher movie, I can overlook just about anything, if its a movie trying to strike a more serious tone or places a real importance on plot, if it's illogical, it can be very distracting.

Re: Does logical plotting matter to you?
 

It matters a great deal to me, but then, I lived through the 70s where films often dealt with multi-leveled characters who worked through their hardships in realistic and logical ways. Examples: The Last Picture Show, The Last Detail, Five Easy Pieces, The Godfather, The Conversation...

This bugged the hell out of me, too, but later I watched the deleted scenes in the extras which made this scene play much better and made logical sense for the way the biologist acted. In fact, I would have added all the deleted scenes back into this particular movie as they enriched the movie's structure. The follow up movie "Alien: Covenant" was a major let down in my book.

Re: Does logical plotting matter to you?
 

The Big Sleep is a great movie.

Re: Does logical plotting matter to you?
 

If a movie is done well and is enjoyable, I tend to overlook plot holes. If the movie is not good, then I tend to focus on the plot holes.

Re: Does logical plotting matter to you?
 

I’m the opposite when it comes to slasher flicks. Nothing irritates me more when watching these than when a character makes a completely boneheaded, nonsensical decision. For some reason plot holes stand out a lot more in those kinds of movies than they do in most other genres.

Re: Does logical plotting matter to you?
 

Well this is what popped into my head as I was watching it during TCM's last showing of it:



This is what happens when you've seen certain films too many times.

Re: Does logical plotting matter to you?
 

Those are your problems? Those are nothing. People have pointed a great many more over the years.

Remember, Gavin Elster went looking for a woman who looked like his wife, then gave her a makeover to look even more like his wife. Elster selected Judy because she was similar to his wife. He takes her to a restaurant as his wife! Within the movie’s world they are twins. Now whether it’s possible to do that in the real world is another issue.

Re: Does logical plotting matter to you?
 

Didn't Stewart's character have a mental breakdown after she fell? It's credible he wouldn't have paid attention to the news or much of anything else going on for a while after. If I remember right he's still wandering around a few bricks short of a full load when he runs into her the second time.

Re: Does logical plotting matter to you?
 

I am really forgiving on plot holes as long as the story has compelling characters or just transports me completely to another universe.

Although I recently re watched The Game with Michael Douglas, an extremely plot driven movie and that one just drives me nuts because I just can't come up with a way to fill in all the holes and make the story work. There are just too many things that conveniently happened to force the plot down the specific path. It's still fun to imagine that a service like CRS could exist, but in reality, I don't see how it could remotely be possible.

Re: Does logical plotting matter to you?
 

If folks want a little proof that problems like this matter far less to the public at large, or that it really only depends on the subjectivity involved with liking or disliking a movie (or its director), look no further than the very first Star Wars and the incredible amount of coincidence — and lapses in logical thinking — that led to R2-D2 coming under Uncle Owen’s ownership and then into Luke’s with all data intact.

If it absolutely mattered, the Star Wars franchise wouldn’t have even made it off Tattoine. Under more rigid scrutiny, it might not even make it past the Imperial gunners not taking out their escape pod because “no life forms aboard”. Yet here we are, looking ahead to the tenth full-blown movie in this universe and discussing whether logical plotting matters because of The Last Jedi. :lol:

Re: Does logical plotting matter to you?
 

Yes. Furthermore all the press surrounding the situation would be photos of the wife, who, according to the movie's rules, is an indistinguishable double of Madeline.

Also Ash, it's stated in the film that Gavin Elster had already killed his wife (I believe by breaking her neck) before ever dragging her up to that tower. He was simply throwing an already dead woman off the tower.

Re: Does logical plotting matter to you?
 

A bit of a non sequitur, but this conversation reminds me of this one day several years ago when I was home sick from work, and, by coincidence, ended up watching Vertigo and That Obscure Object of Desire, back-to-back. The nature of the films and my own feverish condition made the juxtaposition of two films in which an older man obsesses over, in the former, two younger female characters played by the same actress, and, in the latter, a younger female character played by two different actresses, an interesting study in the subjectivity of film.

Re: Does logical plotting matter to you?
 

No I dont mean for this discussion to be about TLJ, it is just what prompted me to start it, since I see it in so many movies now

Re: Does logical plotting matter to you?
 

A good example of a plot hole I let slide is Superman 1978. The whole movie is great, so I tolerate the part where he turns back to the earth at the end. In fact, I tolerate it even more because of he screams, as that is one of the most powerful moments in the movie.

Re: Does logical plotting matter to you?
 

For me, it definitely falls into the "It depends" category. For some movies, too much plot can actually get in the way. It's like riding a roller coaster. I don't want to spend time wondering why the ride designer chose to make it curve this way or that, I just enjoy the ride.

Re: Does logical plotting matter to you?
 

You shut your whore mouth! ;) OT has no plot holes. TLJ is full of plot holes.

To put it simply:
OT = good
ST = bad

Reason? "because."

Re: Does logical plotting matter to you?
 

Assuming the Star Wars universe is populated with people who are strong with the force and many/most just never develop or use it, living on a planet that had the Falcon and map to Skywalker seems like it would make such an individual more likely to become pulled into the saga, not less.

Re: Does logical plotting matter to you?
 

:up:

Also, Rogue One is the best Star Wars movie. Fight me, nerds!

Re: Does logical plotting matter to you?
 

A well-made movie floats me over plot holes. A poorly-made movie drops me into them.

A well-made movie might be one with a tight plot that only has a couple of minor gaps that aren't evident until I think about it carefully. Or it might have a nonsensical plot that is full of gaping holes, but the storytelling gets me past the holes before I can be bothered by them. A good director or a good editor can sneak stuff past me that a bad one can't.

It's all in the presentation.

Re: Does logical plotting matter to you?
 

:lol:

When I was last watching it, I fell asleep before it got to those parts.

It still sounds utterly ridiculous. If he's got a wife who already looks like Kim Novak, why would he want another one? And why would he then want to kill the first one? And how does a middle-aged man drag a corpse up all those stairs without having a coronary? -ptth-

Not that plot points like this were ever Hitchcock's strong points. And I'm a fan.

Re: Does logical plotting matter to you?
 

Time travel movies are a plot whole and paradox waiting to happen. You can rip them to shreds but BTTF is still very entertaining for me.

Sci-Fi can get away with some large plot holes and coincidences since without them there is no movie.

I dislike horror movies because as someone mentioned, smart people doing really stupid things. People are getting killed so let's call out really loud so the bad guy can hear us. Let's bang and not pay attention. Let's go into that shed with knives and axes and ignore the running car.