Franchot

No, I don't think you've got it. If fact, I think you're being intentionally obtuse.

Franchot

Wow, that's original and different--not. Good job, Rian, in going in a different direction with the plot.

kefrank

The originality of such a thing was not the discussion point though. Noonan was arguing that Snoke going out like that was inconsistent with how powerful he was shown to be in the force. I was pointing out that it works within the established story and is consistent with many mythological tropes (from which Star Wars has always and will always borrow), not to mention real-world scenarios.

Rob V

Snoke knew Kylo had thoughts of slicing someone with his saber... I thought the writers did a nice job disguising that within the context of how he had Rey compromised at the time. That said, it would have been hella-cool if Snoke had sniffed out Kylo's intention and went full Sith on both of them.

Michael Corvin

Got it.

The Emperor works because we didn't know anything about him.

Snoke doesn't work because we don't know anything about him.





What have we "lived through" exactly? We went from the Rebellion defeating the Empire to a 30-40 gap. That's a long ass time where anything could happen.

I'm sure the new EU books, comics and animated shows will fill it all in for us.

Dan

About to see this for the second time finally.
This time in a proper Dolby Cinema.

brayzie

The Emperor in the OT was a crap villain. He's pretty much Mr. Burns in a black robe, cackling and employing the worst kind of reverse psychology.
Yes, kill your father so you can take his place. Yeah, that's going to convince a Jedi.

Snoke was crap too, down to his stupid name. But it did feel out of left field that he was killed like that. That would have been okay, keeping the audience on their toes and being more "realistic" in a way. But since he was such a weak character, the whole thing was meaningless. His whole character just seems like cannon fodder.
Probably Abrams didn't want a repeat Darth Maul-creating a cool villain only to kill him off right away.

joe_b

If all that ancillary stuff is necessary, then these jokers fail at storytelling. Abrams and Kasdan are to blame for setting up so much mystique with no clear payoff in mind.. and Johnson is to blame for saying "screw it" and deciding the best answer was no answer at all. I consider it weak screenwriting all around.

Remember, the fans knew they'd be getting Palpatine's backstory in I-III as far back as 1980. It's the current people in charge (Abrams, Kennedy, Hart) who were teasing fans about this Snoke guy for the past two years. You had Serkis telling reporters the character was ancient and had been a witness to all these major events even before Episode I -- that he was more powerful than the Emperor. It's perfectly understandable that fans are confused why such a figure had stayed out of the picture until the script for VII require a big dumb CG baddie to show up. With how little we learned about him and how quickly he was killed off, Snoke ended up being a more worthless character than Jar Jar Binks. Fans are perfectly right to feel annoyed by that and I doubt it will be addressed further in Episode IX.

In reading some of the production info in the art books that have been released, it's clear that the Lucasfilm story group was more interested in evoking a mood with this new trilogy... an OT mood, specifically. They didn't seem concerned about crafting a solid story with strong character arcs and logical progression from the beginning. It appears they just had a bunch of "visualists" coming up with set pieces and designs that felt Star Wars-y (or influenced by Kurosawa), then cobbled everything together into a mish mash plot. Even the prequels felt more sure-handed compared to the direction this new trilogy appears to be taking.

zero

Did that last week

Dan

Dolby Cinema is so damn good. Worth every penny.

Franchot

Yes, that's my main complaint with TLJ. And I'm not coming down specifically on Star Wars movies. The Mummy, Transformers, and all those special effects-laden movies that have very little in the way of engaging plot lines, meaningful character developments, and logical progressions are all lumped together as unsatisfying for me as is TLJ. I had thought that the current Star Wars trilogy could rise above that crap and be something that hit high levels of artistic and emotional storytelling. Instead, we get a movie that squanders it's opportunity to be something special and gives us world-class special effects with a plot line that features "misdirection" for misdirection's sake, and the usual commercial grab to sell toys to consumers. Well, it's current Disney so I was probably hoping for too much.

zero

We have an IMAX out here in Ontario, if I don't have to work overtime this week I think I'm gonna make this my fourth and final viewing.

Josh-da-man

In the nine film plan that was in effect at the time ESB was being made, the Emperor would not have been revealed until Episode IX, the final film.

The sense I get from that is that the Emperor was intended to be an unseen, Sauron-like presence in the saga.

This changed when Lucas decided to wrap the story up in ROTJ and tied up all of the loose ends, like having Leia be Luke's twin sister (Luke was supposed to have a sister that wouldn't show up until VIII) and putting Palpatine in it.

Breakfast with Girls

Considering how much influence Lord of the Rings was on the Star Wars trilogy, this seems likely.

Brack

I just find it funny that what the original trilogy did was acceptable back then, that is there was no background story for the Emperor, but now we must know exact circumstances as to how Snoke came into power, and the reason for that was because of the PT. The strength of the argument hinges on the existence of the PT, but what if it never existed. Would it then be okay for Snoke to be the big bad?

mcnabb

I agree as it's just a problem with most Blockbusters now. You can wow people and that is really enough to get them in theaters these days. Sorry, but most Blockbuster films will just not hold up 20 years from now compared to a movie like Jaws, Star Wars, Raiders of the Lost Ark, etc. It's just a different time and a different generation of directors and I think it's the fact that they have grown up with the tools of CGI and they don't have to worry about the story and character development. A movie like Jaws would be so much different in 2018 compared to 1975 because Spielberg couldn't get the damn shark to work, but it benefitted the movie because you really care about the characters, and that's what makes it hold up so well.

Rob V

(To Brack) It's the internet's fault... we were bombarded with "Who is Rey? Who is Snoke? 20 reasons why Rey is a Palpatine", etc. It's ok to want answers to these questions and it's the right of Disney to not divulge them... but if RJ didn't plan on giving any leads, then he shouldn't have fueled the fire with "Your Snoke Theory Sucks" tweet.

Brack

I have no idea how a tweet makes or breaks a movie, but whatever.

Edit: he didn’t even make that line up, what am I missing?

Rob V

It doesn't make or break the movie, but Johnson fed into the fact that Snoke was somebody...

https://images.follownews.com/2658/2...ry-sucks_1.jpg

Michael Corvin

Ahh, I think I see the problem. People believing extraneous content that isn't on screen. Did people not learn their lesson from Lost?

I'm a big SW fan but I gave up on following all that stuff. I sat my ass in the theater and enjoyed what was presented. I didn't come in with baggage about this character's history, the width of Snoke's ship or what so and so tweeted. Maybe my experience was better because of it?

mcnabb

There is nothing wrong with your type of fandom, or the diehard type of fandom we get from other fans here.

I'm a Star Trek fan (my favorite is Star Trek IV: The Voyage Home), and I don't get all caught up in the science and politics of each movie, as I enjoy them for what they are. But I am a diehard Star Wars fan and I do get caught up in the crazy debates and characters backstories as that is the way I enjoy those movies. I've watched the OT movies hundreds of times, so my fandom has led to countless hours of enjoyment for those movies.

So my experience on Star Trek and your experience on Star Wars is one way to experience the movies, but I don't think we should say that is a better experience then diehard Star Wars and Star Trek fans who look deeper into the movies. It's just a different way of approaching the movies.

Franchot

As I see it if Johnson cut out all that useless casino crap and instead used those minutes to delve into Snoke's background and who he/she was, I wouldn't have been so annoyed when this "very powerful" character gets cut down by Kylo. As it plays, he comes off as Captain Phasma--a character that has no storytelling weight who gets easily dispatched to provide a nifty special effect.

As I've stated before, the Emperor was a weak villain and the OT concludes with a weak final film in part due to this character having a murky/non-existent background. But by then, Lucas was more interested in selling his teddy bear Ewoks instead of approaching the greatness of a Kuroswasa film.

B5Erik

In Dobly?

Jay G.

The picture didn't load, so I had to go back to the original article:
https://www.follownews.com/even-star...y-sucks-1kzg0v

Which points to the twitter post:


Which is a picture of Rian Johnson holding a sticker that says "Your Snoke Theory Sucks".

This sticker was created by Steele Saunders for his Steele Wars podcast:
https://www.inverse.com/article/1846...e-theory-sucks


I think Rian Johnson was holding it as a joke, much like George Lucas wearing the "Han Shot First" T-shirt. I don't think it was "feeding" into any ideas about Snoke, one way or the other.

kefrank

I see your point, but I disagree with it at least in a matter of degrees. The Captain Phasma character exists almost exclusively in a vacuum. Aside from a very minor and completely unnecessary connection to Finn, Phasma has virtually no meaningful impact on the plot or any other character's development. Snoke on the other hand, despite lacking the backstory that you and others might desire, is much more significantly intertwined with Kylo Ren and his development as a character in these two movies. I'll grant that the character and the movies might be somewhat richer with more background for Snoke, but ultimately Snoke is more of a "powerful devil on the shoulder" for Kylo Ren than a standalone character of individual significance. That works really well for me, though I can see why that doesn't necessarily work for everyone.