Yeah, guys are really upset they can't sexually harass as easily these days. A real game changer.

I really miss the days when you could just walk up to a woman and grab her pussy.

Rogan has been a pretty big disappointment to me over the last few years. I appreciate that he introduced me to Abby Martin and Dan Carlin but he's kind of become a regular tour stop for the grossest people on the internet over the last year or two.

The issue is more nuanced than that. It's kind of a shame that people are trying to make this a black and white issue when there are really a lot of varying shades of gray.

Yes, sexual assault and harassment are clearly unacceptable, and quite often criminal. No one's got a problem with stating that. But short of clear assault or harassment things get really murky.

Sometimes it's OK to hit on a woman (politely and respectfully) or compliment her, but other times it isn't, and sometimes it depends on the woman. It gets really confusing as to what's OK and when because different women react differently. Some women want guys to flirt with them and pay them compliments and ask them out. If it's the right guy. Other women only want to be flirted with or complimented in a setting that they control and feel comfortable with.

The Garrison Keillor story was a great example. He realized that she didn't feel comfortable with that hug, and he apologized. Should have been the end of that. Some women would have been happy to get that hug as an expression of emotional support, while others would feel uncomfortable. When he found out she felt uncomfortable he apologized. End of story. Except it wasn't.

If a guy does something like that and makes an honest mistake in gauging what is or isn't OK with a woman and stops and apologizes that should be the end of it (as long as he wasn't engaging in groping or sexual comments or something like that). But now it isn't. An honest mistake becomes something malicious or heinous. Something sinister. And that's wrong.

Most people want and need support. They need affirmation and comfort. Sometimes people need a hug (there can be a very real, legitimate psychological need), or a well timed compliment (after a breakup where the person's attractiveness was called into question by the other party, etc). In this environment that is, essentially, being outlawed.

There are a lot of ways that people can interact on personal levels without harassing or assaulting, but those things are now being lumped in with the criminal conduct. It's really kind of sad.

Here’s a tip: let the woman tell you what she wants or needs from you. Odds are she doesn’t need the hug or compliment you think she does.

This only becomes “nuanced” if you start thinking “this is what she REALLY wants, she just doesn’t want to tell me”. Slow your roll, she’s just fine without it.

Maybe you should talk to someone well versed in psychology before you so flippantly dismiss the need most people have for support (like a simple non groping hug) and positive reinforcement (like a well timed non threatening compliment).

https://health.usnews.com/health-new...its-of-hugging

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/b...-hug-we-all-do


The point being simply this - we shouldn't punish anyone for the misdeeds of others, nor should we pre-empt natural human behavior as long as it's within the boundaries of respect and courtesy. It IS possible for guys to respectfully compliment women, ask them out, and even give them the occasional hug without doing so deviously for sinister purposes.

He is what happens when there is an accumulation of blows to the head.
He is now just another yahoo...

Good point.

Another good point.
Unfortunately (or fortunately), things have changed.
The bottom line is, in this year of our lord 2018, it is wise to stay away from women who aren't family members.
Personally, I think it's ridiculous, but it doesn't really matter what I think.

The problem is that the issues that prompted #MeToo weren’t innocent hugs and compliments and date requests. So when you say things like that men can’t compliment women anymore, that’s not what the problem was. As for hugs, it seems like it’s always men hugging women, often women who work with them and often women who are subordinate. Why so much hugging? The women never seemed to be in need of these amazing hugs from the men in their lives. Just stop hugging.

I don’t need to take a class in psychology to know that women probably aren’t as in need of those hugs and compliments as men would like to think. It’s like men telling women to smile. It might seem innocent to the men, but women do not appreciate it nor do they need to smile to please men.

And it seems like the men are the ones complaining about all of this. I never hear women lament that their male bosses can’t even hug them anymore.

Yet, but look what happened to Matt Damon when he said that the allegations need to be viewed as "spectrum of behavior" and that "There's a difference between patting someone on the butt and rape or child molestation. Both of those behaviors need to be confronted and eradicated without question, but they shouldn’t be conflated."

A reasonable statement, yes?

Not to the MeToo mob who attacked Matt Damon so much that he ended up apologizing for his reasonable viewpoint. Can't have that, just emotional outrage is the only thing allowed, and everything is the same level of intolerable crime with guilty established upon accusation, no evidence or due process necessary! Remember these 2 basic rules... Rule #1: Women never lie or distort. Rule #2: Anyone who disagrees with rule #1 is either a misogynist or has internalized misogyny.


(Personally, I think it's high time for a revival of Arthur Miller's "The Crucible" because that's what this has turned into)

Guess who didn't need to weigh in on any of this? Matt Damon.

Did you even look at the articles I linked? They were both written by women.

The point being, the pendulum has swung so far that it will have negative consequences. Yes, there was a problem. It was a big problem. So in solving this problem the metoo people have swung the pendulum all the way to the other side and created a new problem. (The inability to have normal human relations with each other.)

The correct answer is in the middle. A rational, measured, reasonable, well thought out answer.

But we can't have that, now, can we?

Why? Because it's just mansplaining?

Sorry, but Standpoint theory is mostly BS.

Yes, I did.

No, we can't. Because men ruined it. Now they need to stop hugging employees and asking them out and complimenting their boots. I hope they can survive having to keep their hands and thoughts to themselves.

If Matt Damon gets asked about his thoughts on #MeToo, especially since he worked with Weinstein, his answer should be "what Harvey is accused of doing is horrible and I hope justice is done" and STOP TALKING. Matt Damon doesn't need to lead a conversation about the nuances of sexual harassment. Neither do men here on DVD Talk either, to be honest.

Personally as someone who HATES being touched or referred to as "Honey" or "Sweetie", I can say that woman do the same thing which makes me extremely uncomfortable. In my experience, since I am sexually non-threatening and have very good rapport with women (lived with and was raised by 4 of them with no real male influences) I have found that most of the women I have worked with or hung around with are very quick to give hugs or touch/rub my shoulders/arms or use the above terms of endearment, sometimes even meeting for the first time! They are also extremely quick to have no issue discussing personal sexual and grooming habits either right in front of me or to me in many cases. This is not an isolated anecdote but something that has been going on since my late teens. I hate it but put up with it because I don't want to offend anyone or make anyone else become uncomfortable by pointing our their inappropriate behavior. The ONLY people I want touching me in any manner are my kids. Other than that keep your touches and hugs the fuck to yourself even if you think you are being comforting. For example whenever I have been in the receiving line at a family members funeral many woman feel the need to either hug or kiss my check when giving their condolences which just adds an huge layer of anxiety on a day when I can’t even think straight due to the loss.

I am guessing that the above will be ridiculed or I will be seen as less of a man or that some will dismiss it as not important compared to what women put up with and I somewhat agree as there is often a physical or power dynamic THREAT potential when it happens to women but it is very important to me personally as it bothers me a lot and makes me feel like my body space does not matter nor are my feelings considered when it happens. I know much of it is due to my abusive childhood which I have discussed on here before, but that is kind of the point. Since no one knows how each person will react or who has issues due to trauma with what some/many see as “ok behavior” it is better to just keep to yourself in my opinion.

Basically I hope this whole awareness that is going on leads to less UNWANTED personal contact by ALL people as well as stopping discussions of a sexual or personal nature with people who do not indicate they want to be included or ask about it or overhear it. This applies to women in the office talking about how they can't sit because their boyfriend railed them hard in the ass (yes an actual conversation a cube-mate had) to guys bragging about how some chick they met on Tinder liked being choked and how great it was (also a real conversation had 2 feet away from me as I worked at my desk and no I didn’t know either guy personally). I don’t feel comfortable confronting people nor raising the issue due to fears of repercussions or being seen as an issue at work so I just have to deal with it.

For clarification, I am not a prude and have no problems discussing this stuff in graphic details with friends of both genders when hanging out but knock it off when at work or near others who are not close with you. And keep your “comfort” hugs to yourself, ladies.

You sure don't seem to take taken what experts have said to heart...

You're so hell bent on stopping the inappropriate use of POWER that you're completely ignoring the majority of interpersonal relationships - that of equals. People at the same pay grade. So we're talking about two different things.

I'm saying that among equals there has to be, for the psychological well being of the majority, an allowance for human beings to behave and relate as human beings, not fucking robots. That means that abuse, assault, and harassment is utterly unacceptable, but being human and giving comfort and support should be OK if both parties are OK with it. (And most times both parties are.)


Bullshit. Not all offenses are even close to being equal, so the consequences and outrage shouldn't be equal, either.

I asked you earlier for examples of men being fired or jailed because of innocent actions like complimenting clothes or asking someone out on a date. If this is such an issue now, shouldn't it be easy to find proof of this chilling effect on the American male?

I agree. That's not what the #MeToo movement opposes.

You know who doesn't need to lead the discussion? Matt Damon.

Wow.... I though I was going to click those links and have women explaining why the MeToo thing is overblown. Instead it's a couple "Hugs are Good for you" articles. While I have no problem with the articles and tooootally understand the info to be FACT... You missed Draven's entire point.


B5Erik you are the opposite side of the MeToo coin.

MeToo side:
Please don't rape me, touch me inappropriately, say sexually inappropriate things to me, don't threaten my job/livelihood in relation to those aforementioned things, and if I decide to report inappropriate contact ....please listen to me and not ignore me.


The Opposite Side:
-Oh my Gawd! We can't Say Hi to Women anymore!!!
-Oh My Gawd! We can't tell a woman her dress looks great on her and shows off her curves!!
-Oh My Gawd! We can't give Women a hug WHEN WE THINK THEY NEED ONE even if she didn't ask for one! Don't they know Men always know best?

The whole world is Going to Hell in a Hand Basket!! The Feminazi Terrorists have Won! It's a War On Straight Privileged Men!!!

How many times do you actually think to hug a male coworker (without asking first)? Maybe this is a common occurrence in other places, or maybe men are just superior and don't need hugs. I dunno.

And isn't that an interesting question...

You feelings are VALID and REASONABLE.

Like I said a page or two ago, my Sexual Harassment Course at work covered stuff like this. that being Women in the workplace being touchy feelly and giving hugs that weren't wanted to men...even if it was not meant in a sexual way. The men in the examples given weren't presented as Gay or prudes. They just didn't want to be touched by these women at work even if the women meant nothing sexual. It was often in a "You did great on this account!" type hugs and touching.

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No, I just do not accept it as being valid.

Punishing everyone for the actions of a few is wrong.

(FYI, it's not like I'm a serial hugger. I've hugged co-workers maybe 2 or 3 times in the last 10 years. But sometimes when someone you have known for years loses a parent they need a hug or some kind of support. These aren't just co-workers, they're often friends or a work family.)

We're just seeing an environment where adults are being treated like children. Most guys treat women with respect. We don't need to turn people into robots at work. Our jobs suck enough as it is.

Secondarily, in my experience it's as actually been the women who have behaved inappropriately far more than the men. I had one woman who upgraded from her perky B-Cups to the best DD's that money could buy and proceeded to come in to work in a low cut top that was barely a half inch from a nipple slip who almost literally shoved them in my face (about 18 inches away), clearly wanting to show off. Another was having a conversation with a co-worker about her, "Fuck buddy," right in front of me.

But I never complained. It only made me uncomfortable in that I knew if I commented on the subject at all that I'd be the one to get fired.

And I do not in any way condone or accept harassment or assault. But I'm talking about people behaving like human beings as long as they keep it respectful and non-threatening.

And I do not support superiors engaging in any kind of inappropriate or overly personal behavior with subordinates. That is where there is an issue because of the power imbalance.

There's a lot more gray than black and white, but some people want to treat it all as black or white, not acknowledging any gray.

I don't get what's not black and white about it.

If you know the person really well and you know for sure the hug isn't going to be taken the wrong way, go hug them. They're not going to write you up because of it, someone else isn't going to see it and write you up. If you don't know for sure, ask if they need a hug, and if they're receptive hug them. What's the slippery slope here? Who's being punished? Who's saying "don't have any interaction at all with the opposite sex at work?"

I guess what is it that you feel like you can't do anymore because of #metoo? Your relationships didn't change because of it.