re: Elliot Page discussion thread (formerly Ellen Page)
 

Okay. It's somewhere in the cluttered storage shed of my mind that there was an actress who had that problem on a TV show.

re: Elliot Page discussion thread (formerly Ellen Page)
 

Maybe the people in her life call her "El" or "Elly" and they still can.

re: Elliot Page discussion thread (formerly Ellen Page)
 

It's up to the individual. I mean, that's obvious, but people transition different ways.

There's a fantastic movie I highly recommend called In the Turn. It's about queer people involved in the sport of roller derby (which is ironic since Page made a film about derby as well). One subject is a young girl who is transitioning, and in a heartbreaking interview, her mom describes a story where she found her trying to remove her penis with a pair of nail clippers. Even after you get past the "ouch" factor, the fact that someone so young could see this appendage as "foreign" tells you a lot about the personal anguish when someone feels they are trapped in the wrong body.

Yet later on in the movie, there's a FTM person who emphatically states he has no plans to surgically alter his vagina, in his words, he still "has a lot of fun with it".

So there's definitely no "one size fits all" mentality when it comes to transitioning.

re: Elliot Page discussion thread (formerly Ellen Page)
 

Are trans people who don't do anything to actually alter their body/hormones common within that segment of people? Do people who do take those extra steps (like Caitlyn) view the others as "less of a trans" since the choice is by pronoun only?

Shows how ignorant I still am about all of this.

re: Elliot Page discussion thread (formerly Ellen Page)
 

Just reading this thread makes truly clear and visible the difference between ignorance and stupidity. Being ignorant around transgender issues and identification is one thing, but when you are presented with information and continue to still act like a transphobic individual that says a lot about a person.

re: Elliot Page discussion thread (formerly Ellen Page)
 

Yeah, couldn't possibly be because this is a fluid, changing, and very confusing topic.

re: Elliot Page discussion thread (formerly Ellen Page)
 

Just a point of clarification, Elliot is not male either. He identifies as non-binary.

re: Elliot Page discussion thread (formerly Ellen Page)
 

Well, I know I'm broken. Broken, confused, stressed...

Re: Elliot Page discussion thread (formerly Ellen Page)
 

Is it confusing? Person says they want to be identified as a male. People call said person a male/he/him, except one person. I fail to see what is so difficult to comprehend. Just because you don't seem to agree with it doesn't mean you can't respect that person's wishes.

Re: Elliot Page discussion thread (formerly Ellen Page)
 

It is, but you must understand that gender and sex are not synonymous. Biologically, Page is presumably (still) female with breasts, a vagina, and reproductive organs, but he has concluded that he is a male (or neither male nor female) mentally, internally. Imagine if you or I felt without equivocation like women, despite being biologically male. It may be hard to conceive of, but it exists, and I believe one should respect people's decisions to identify as whatever gender they embrace as their own.

Re: Elliot Page discussion thread (formerly Ellen Page)
 

And that's where I just don't get the logic of saying someone is a man, when they're not. What you feel is not the same as what you are, physically. Not one person has said why it's wrong to be a woman who feels like a man (wearing men's clothing, dating women, etc). For the last 30+ years we've been told to accept people for what they ARE. What you are is different than what you feel.

There's a huge disconnect there that I'm not understanding. Why is it offensive to call a woman a woman? Just because she feels like a man doesn't make her a man. I understand the identity idea and all that, but that doesn't change the physiological, biological facts.

If words don't have concrete meanings, how can we effectively communicate? HE is a man. SHE is a woman. Not, HE could be a man, or a woman who feels like a man and wants to be a man. That's the part I'm not getting. Using words that do not apply.

There is nothing wrong with being a she. That's been drilled in our heads ever since the feminist movement started. Women are the equal of men in all meaningful ways (intellectually, etc). They can do (almost) any job a man can do. They can dress how they like, wear their hair how they like, love who they like, and none of that is open to criticism or scorn (nor should it be). So why now are we saying it's offensive? That's the part I don't get.

I must just be an asshole or something because I look at things literally and logically rather than emotionally and empathetically. Obviously, I'm in a tiny minority here, so I guess I'm in the wrong for not getting it and having a different point of view.

Re: Elliot Page discussion thread (formerly Ellen Page)
 

He's a woman... She's a man...

Re: Elliot Page discussion thread (formerly Ellen Page)
 

rotfl


Well played. Well played...

Re: Elliot Page discussion thread (formerly Ellen Page)
 

Guys (used in a non-gendered way) the block button is awesome when people are trying to have a discussion in bad faith.

Re: Elliot Page discussion thread (formerly Ellen Page)
 

You know, it's funny, some people automatically make a knee jerk reaction when someone else has a different point of view and doesn't fully get/understand your own.

Funny thing when that happens, there is often a lot of finger wagging and people looking down on others when, really, it's just an honest lack of understanding. Funny how some people can't understand how someone else can honestly have a different point of view, and not understand yours.

Clearly, very few people understand mine on this topic, nor do I fully understand theirs - I freely admit that. But I really think that the impasse is just a failure of understanding, not a case of anyone really trying to be a jerk (which someone previously accused me of being).

Bad faith. -rolleyes- My discussion is actually the one in the most good faith there is - I'm admitting that I don't get it.

Re: Elliot Page discussion thread (formerly Ellen Page)
 

I think the lack of understanding is only one-way in this instance. We all get where you’re coming from. It’s a place many of us can probably admit we were at at some point in our lives but over the last 10+ years or so many of us have educated ourselves, at least somewhat, on the subject.

You’re confused because you say there is only males and females and that’s not true. That’s an antiquated notion. If you want to follow the science then you need to realize that science has changed over the last 20 years and your way of thinking isn’t true anymore. What’s frustrating is that you continue to come into this thread seemingly unable or unwilling to get past “I don’t get it” or “I’m confused” when all you have to do is a little research on the subject (literally 15 minutes on google can give you a start).

Re: Elliot Page discussion thread (formerly Ellen Page)
 

So, if after reading the comments, and understanding that a lot of people agree with it, if I disagree I'm what? A bad guy?

Because I'm not saying that there aren't gender identity issues, but I am saying that one's sex remains constant. And, to me, "He," and, "She," are based on sex, not gender identity.

And, like I said before, you and the others appear to be coming from a place of emotion and empathy, and I'm not. I tend to look at stuff like this from a more logic based, literal point of view.

It comes down to having a different view of what is male and female. I don't get accepting the idea that a woman is male. That's the part that makes no sense to me. I understand that she feels male, and I understand that she identifies with being male, but that doesn't make it biologically/anatomically so. That's the disconnect I have.

I have zero issues whatsoever with her dressing as a male and taking on that gender role. But she's still a woman, physically.

And it seems like no one is willing to accept another point of view on this issue as valid. It's outdated, wrong, and I'm a jerk (post deleted, but someone did go to the namecalling card) for not accepting the majority view.

The science you're referring to is psychology. My counterpoint to that, one which has yet to be addressed by ANYONE here, is that a woman can take on a male persona and still be a woman. And there's nothing wrong with that. Women can take on masculine roles if they want, and that's fine. There's nothing offensive about being a woman. That point keeps getting ignored, and that's part of why I keep posting. No one wants to touch that point with a ten foot pole.

By saying that calling her, "She," is offensive and wrong there is a subtle statement (subtext) that there must be something wrong with being a woman, or that women can't dress like men and take on masculine roles - because as soon as you do you become, "He," rather than, "She."

And if you're not saying that, and are saying that, "Well sometimes that person is a he, and sometimes that person is a she, it depends on what they want," then things get totally confusing because then pronouns don't mean shit and who knows what to call anyone anymore at that point. And that's where I get totally confused.

I DO want to keep it simple. Life is more than complicated enough as it is. Especially in 2020. I don't need more complication, I need less - as does a huge percentage of the population. This board skews WAY liberal, and I don't really think some of you understand how this kind of thing really confuses a lot of people in the general population, and really kind of alienates them. Like I said - life is WAY too complicated for the average person to put up with this kind of super complicated issue the way you guys want them to. Most people don't have the time or patience with their stressful, complicated lives to deal with something like this that is inherently uber complicated and confusing.

Re: Elliot Page discussion thread (formerly Ellen Page)
 

Then why are Elliot's chosen pronouns HE and THEY, but not SHE?

This individual's pronouns have been she/her for almost 34 years. Now they announce they are transgender and she/her is out, and he/him is in. If that does not mean that Elliot is identifying as a trans male, then I'm gonna jump over on B5Erik's side.

Re: Elliot Page discussion thread (formerly Ellen Page)
 

It's a losing side around here more often than not when discussing social issues.


It's so funny, too. My conservative friends and family members think I'm a raging liberal, and my liberal friends think I'm a stone age hardcore conservative.

It's lonely in the middle sometimes.

Re: Elliot Page discussion thread (formerly Ellen Page)
 

For what it's worth, many people go from their assigned gender (like she/her), to some combination (like he/him/they/them) and eventually settle on something more binary (just he/him). Generally, the combination seems to occur in the early phase after coming out... Think of it like a buffer in an attempt to make it easier both on themselves and others. Absolutely this is not always the case, and I'm by no means diminishing the non-binary aspect, because many do stay in that space. I'm just saying that a good number of folks will use a combination as they slowly figure themselves out, and will, frequently enough, shift towards just one. I recall a YouTuber who initially said they preferred a fluid combination of he/she/they interchangeable even in a single sentence. That person now exclusively uses she/her.
all I'm saying is, for some, the transition of pronouns over time is just as big of a part as the physical transitions they may or may not take.

Re: Elliot Page discussion thread (formerly Ellen Page)
 

no no no no no
untrue

Everything being said applies to a biological male who identifies as female and wants their pronouns to be she/her. So there is no subtext as you describe.

Re: Elliot Page discussion thread (formerly Ellen Page)
 

You're not alone. I think the people that agree with you, just don't want to deal with the argument you're going through. The days of agreeing to disagree seem to be over.

Re: Elliot Page discussion thread (formerly Ellen Page)
 

Oh, you poor victims :lol:

Re: Elliot Page discussion thread (formerly Ellen Page)
 

Unfortunately, that seems to be true. I'm posting in good faith, trying to explain my point of view, trying to explain why the other point of view just doesn't make sense to me, and instead of trying to persuade, the other side is lecturing, casting aspersions, and throwing insults.

Just because someone disagrees with you doesn't mean they're wrong, or that they're a bad person. They just have a different point of view.

And, yeah, I have gotten PM's in the recent past from people who agreed with me on topics, but didn't want to take all the shit that they'd take if they agreed with me publicly on the given threads. People with a right of center point of view have been beaten down and nearly silenced on this board, which is a shame.

Groupthink never works for me. Thus my conservative friends and family members being disappointed that I'm so liberal, while my liberal friends being disappointed that I'm so conservative.

You can't make anyone happy anymore unless you're taking an extremist view on one side or the other, and then the people on the opposite side will hate your guts for being such an evil person. And that's really kind of scary - because it's always been the center and the moderates who made this country work as well as it did. So no matter which side had control at that given point, the moderates made sure that things still got done. Now moderates are considered traitors and bad people by both sides.

Re: Elliot Page discussion thread (formerly Ellen Page)
 

Wow. I never knew that it was an extremist point of view to treat people with empathy, compassion, and respect. Whether you agree with it is besides the point. There are not good people on both sides of this discussion.