View Poll Results: Worse Film: Star Trek I or V?
Voters: 96. You may not vote on this poll
Which Is Worse: Star Trek I or V?
#52
DVD Talk Limited Edition
Re: Which Is Worse: Star Trek I or V?
I did not like Star Trek: The Motion Picture. I thought it had a few good moments (like the opening Klingon sequence), but overall it was too stilted and poorly paced. That was my view of the movie for many years.
Then I saw the "Director's Edition" that was released on DVD. This seemed to improve the movie a lot: the pacing was better, the additional character scenes added a lot, the effects were drastically improved. It was so much better, that I thought this was the best improvement of a movie due to a director's cut I had ever seen!
But then later I wondered.... if maybe the movie wasn't really improved and instead I had just started to like the movie better, due to getting older and maybe being a bit more nostalgic for it. So I saw the original theatrical cut again on the Blu-ray release (which does not have the "Director's Edition" on it at all - that's still just on DVD). And, once again, the film looked too stilted and poorly paced. So it really was the "Director's Edition" that improved the movie, not my nostalgia. And until the "Director's Edition" finally is converted to Blu-ray (given the money cow that Star Trek is, it's almost certain that Paramount will do this one day), the DVD is the only way I'll watch the movie again.
And one thing I think that makes ST: TMP a good movie (and even better on the "Director's Edition" due to restored scenes adding so much to this) is the subtext of the whole film is really just about Spock.
To explain this interpretation that movie is really about Spock, I'll spoiler tag....
Then I saw the "Director's Edition" that was released on DVD. This seemed to improve the movie a lot: the pacing was better, the additional character scenes added a lot, the effects were drastically improved. It was so much better, that I thought this was the best improvement of a movie due to a director's cut I had ever seen!
But then later I wondered.... if maybe the movie wasn't really improved and instead I had just started to like the movie better, due to getting older and maybe being a bit more nostalgic for it. So I saw the original theatrical cut again on the Blu-ray release (which does not have the "Director's Edition" on it at all - that's still just on DVD). And, once again, the film looked too stilted and poorly paced. So it really was the "Director's Edition" that improved the movie, not my nostalgia. And until the "Director's Edition" finally is converted to Blu-ray (given the money cow that Star Trek is, it's almost certain that Paramount will do this one day), the DVD is the only way I'll watch the movie again.
And one thing I think that makes ST: TMP a good movie (and even better on the "Director's Edition" due to restored scenes adding so much to this) is the subtext of the whole film is really just about Spock.
To explain this interpretation that movie is really about Spock, I'll spoiler tag....
Spoiler:
Last edited by dhmac; 05-02-13 at 09:15 PM.
#55
Banned
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Texas
Posts: 1,490
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
#56
DVD Talk Hero
Re: Which Is Worse: Star Trek I or V?
I love them both, but TMP is the better of the two. V suffered, unfortunately, from both a writer's strike, and an effects budget cut. The ending, which is the weakest part, was originally going to have Kirk fighting a "rock creature"... either the "God"-being's actual form or another construct of it. Since this was before CGI, it had to be a practical effect, and with the low budget, and a delivery deadline, the sequence was dropped. The scene came to be, however, in the film Galaxy Quest, as an homage to the lost Final Frontier bit.
TMP is one of the great Science Fiction films of all time. Unfortunately, even so-called sci-fi fans don't really want true Science Fiction. What they really want is sci-fi action movies, or science-fantasy movies (or both). Good science fiction takes its time and immerses you in that fictional world. Listen sometime to background crew chatter during the first bridge scene in TMP. Little comments and conversations that really make you feel like this is a functioning space ship, and that you are there. It's rather extraordinary. I also really like the slow pace, but I'm the kind of guy that has sat through 2001 at least 50 times.
TMP is one of the great Science Fiction films of all time. Unfortunately, even so-called sci-fi fans don't really want true Science Fiction. What they really want is sci-fi action movies, or science-fantasy movies (or both). Good science fiction takes its time and immerses you in that fictional world. Listen sometime to background crew chatter during the first bridge scene in TMP. Little comments and conversations that really make you feel like this is a functioning space ship, and that you are there. It's rather extraordinary. I also really like the slow pace, but I'm the kind of guy that has sat through 2001 at least 50 times.
#57
DVD Talk Hall of Fame
Re: Which Is Worse: Star Trek I or V?
I watch either one whenever I catch them on TV. I never really considered if they were bad movies or not.
#58
Re: Which Is Worse: Star Trek I or V?
I have more enjoyment watching V because of it's run-time and pacing. Its faults are noticeable but they don't linger where as TMP uses lingering shots as a cheap means of importance. If Wise had used it once in any one of the long exposition sequences, it would have had more impact and meaning than its use all over the film.
You say that good science fiction immerses you in that fictional world but the 3 minute leaving drydock sequence would have been amazing instead of a re-tread of the 3-4 minute Kirk's pod arriving sequence conveying the exact same idea. By the time you got to the sequence where the Enterprise traverses V'Ger, the extended sequences have me past being taken out of the movie and just looking forward to the end of it.
You say that good science fiction immerses you in that fictional world but the 3 minute leaving drydock sequence would have been amazing instead of a re-tread of the 3-4 minute Kirk's pod arriving sequence conveying the exact same idea. By the time you got to the sequence where the Enterprise traverses V'Ger, the extended sequences have me past being taken out of the movie and just looking forward to the end of it.
#59
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Northern New Jersey
Posts: 359
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Re: Which Is Worse: Star Trek I or V?
I agree that TMP is essentially good sci-fi in that it's trying to say something on a philosophical level, drawing comparisons to humanity on a grand scale. The original series did that but often with a lighter tone. From Wrath of Khan forward, it was more about fun adventure. TMP is often slow and, as far as storytelling goes, flounders a bit. But it has my respect for trying. It's a rarity that I'm in the mood for it, and in the overall Trek cannon, it's very, very awkward. But on it's own I can only call it a good movie.
#62
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Northern New Jersey
Posts: 359
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Re: Which Is Worse: Star Trek I or V?
I think it's a fine line to walk when you make a slow paced movie that wants you to think. It's difficult to keep you glued to the screen (like 2001), so if you don't do it perfectly, you lose the audience. I think this is the trap that TMP falls into.
In that regard, it's much easier to make a fun adventure movie. I feel like just about anybody can do so, just look at all the action movies out there. Regardless of the plot, you can throw in an action scene, bits of comedy, etc. If you want to make something deeper, it takes much more ability. So even though TMP doesn't stick the landing, the fact that it's trying to be 2001 instead of trying to be dumb fun gives it more credit IMHO.
In that regard, it's much easier to make a fun adventure movie. I feel like just about anybody can do so, just look at all the action movies out there. Regardless of the plot, you can throw in an action scene, bits of comedy, etc. If you want to make something deeper, it takes much more ability. So even though TMP doesn't stick the landing, the fact that it's trying to be 2001 instead of trying to be dumb fun gives it more credit IMHO.
#63
DVD Talk Limited Edition
Re: Which Is Worse: Star Trek I or V?
I'd watch ST:V over ST:1 any day of the week. ST:1 was just sooo damn boring. ST:V might have had stupid ideas and comedy forced into it but at least it is watchable and you aren't bored watching it.
#64
DVD Talk Legend
Re: Which Is Worse: Star Trek I or V?
Shatner conceived his idea for the film's story before he was officially given the director's job. His inspiration was televangelists; "They [the televangelists] were repulsive, strangely horrifying, and yet I became absolutely fascinated," he recalled.[14] Shatner was intrigued that not only did these personalities convince others God was speaking directly to them, but they became wealthy by what Shatner considered false messages. The televangelists formed the basis for the character "Zar", later "Sybok".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_Tr...ier#Production
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_Tr...ier#Production
#65
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Northern New Jersey
Posts: 359
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Re: Which Is Worse: Star Trek I or V?
I get that side of it too. I think 1 is a better movie than 5, but the Uhura fan dance is more entertaining than the woooorrrrmmmmhhhooooollllleeeee scene.
#66
DVD Talk Legend
Re: Which Is Worse: Star Trek I or V?
Yeah that's Star Trek IV: The Voyage Home. Surprising to see you say it's idiotic as it's generally considered one of the better Trek films. I've always found it fun for the fact that it took the crew out of their normal element. The whale aspect wasn't bad either. It carried a good message about humans needing to preserve our planet and protect the creatures who live on it as well.
#67
DVD Talk Legend
Re: Which Is Worse: Star Trek I or V?
Yeah that's Star Trek IV: The Voyage Home. Surprising to see you say it's idiotic as it's generally considered one of the better Trek films. I've always found it fun for the fact that it took the crew out of their normal element. The whale aspect wasn't bad either. It carried a good message about humans needing to preserve our planet and protect the creatures who live on it as well.
#69
Re: Which Is Worse: Star Trek I or V?
I would say that many parts of part 5 do come off as juvenile and brainless, yet the basic story Shatner started with SHOULD have made the best Star Trek movie.
The concept of 'finding god at the center of the universe" should have been Star Trek gold if it was handled correctly.
The concept of 'finding god at the center of the universe" should have been Star Trek gold if it was handled correctly.
#70
DVD Talk Legend
Re: Which Is Worse: Star Trek I or V?
I remember a Harlan Ellison anecdote where the "finding God" story was his pitch for the first Star Trek movie. You're right ... it's a big idea that should've made for a great movie. Probably why I voted V as being worse. ST:TMP was the first Trek movie and the first Trek of any kind in a decade. I can forgive its flaws. But they should've known better by the time of V how to make a good Trek movie. Though I suppose V is the more watchable movie, if you can accept the crappy stuff and just have fun with it. Not much fun to be had with ST:TMP.
#71
Re: Which Is Worse: Star Trek I or V?
Just to satisfy my own curiosity, I tracked down the source of the Harlan Ellison story. It was from Stephen King's Danse Macabre. Spoilered for length:
The thing with the Mayans sounded like what Kevin Smith had to go through with Jon Peters and his insistence on giant spiders being part of a Superman movie.
Spoiler:
The thing with the Mayans sounded like what Kevin Smith had to go through with Jon Peters and his insistence on giant spiders being part of a Superman movie.
#73
DVD Talk Limited Edition
Re: Which Is Worse: Star Trek I or V?
I think every Star Trek movie has some similarities to episodes of one of the TV series.
ST:TMP is similar to TOS episode "The Changeling" with some elements of the episode "The Immunity Syndrome" mixed in. These are two of the best episodes of TOS. (ST:TMP has so much in common with "The Changeling" that the movie has picked up the tagline "Where Nomad Has Gone Before")
ST V: TFF, on the other hand, is most similar to TOS episode "The Way To Eden" which is easily one of the worst episodes of TOS or any ST series. It's the one where Space Hippies lead by a charismatic leader hijack the Enterprise to go to the planet that's called "Eden" - but when they get there, the place sucks and they (mostly) die. Substitute New Age Hippies for Space Hippies, and ST V is the same basic story.
ST: TMP is rooted in a great episode, while ST V is rooted in one of the worst episodes. That sums it up well.
ST:TMP is similar to TOS episode "The Changeling" with some elements of the episode "The Immunity Syndrome" mixed in. These are two of the best episodes of TOS. (ST:TMP has so much in common with "The Changeling" that the movie has picked up the tagline "Where Nomad Has Gone Before")
ST V: TFF, on the other hand, is most similar to TOS episode "The Way To Eden" which is easily one of the worst episodes of TOS or any ST series. It's the one where Space Hippies lead by a charismatic leader hijack the Enterprise to go to the planet that's called "Eden" - but when they get there, the place sucks and they (mostly) die. Substitute New Age Hippies for Space Hippies, and ST V is the same basic story.
ST: TMP is rooted in a great episode, while ST V is rooted in one of the worst episodes. That sums it up well.
#74
DVD Talk Hero
Re: Which Is Worse: Star Trek I or V?
Just to satisfy my own curiosity, I tracked down the source of the Harlan Ellison story. It was from Stephen King's Danse Macabre. Spoilered for length:
The thing with the Mayans sounded like what Kevin Smith had to go through with Jon Peters and his insistence on giant spiders being part of a Superman movie.
Spoiler:
The thing with the Mayans sounded like what Kevin Smith had to go through with Jon Peters and his insistence on giant spiders being part of a Superman movie.
#75
Banned
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: The lonely depths of my mind
Posts: 3,863
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
Re: Which Is Worse: Star Trek I or V?
I like Star Trek 5. You have to look at it for what it is. A cheesy, fun scifi adventure. If you go into it with that viewpoint, you'll have a great time. Cheesy, fun scifi...that's what Star Trek has always been. I don't understand the hate for ST V. Sybok is an amazing character. Not a bad guy in the traditional sense. Just...misguided a bit, perhaps. Definately my favourite character in the movie.