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Which Is Worse: Star Trek I or V?

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View Poll Results: Worse Film: Star Trek I or V?
The Motion Picture (1979)
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The Final Frontier (1989)
66.67%
Voters: 96. You may not vote on this poll

Which Is Worse: Star Trek I or V?

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Old 05-02-13, 07:21 PM
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Re: Which Is Worse: Star Trek I or V?

I didn't like the 2009 one, either, but I love all four TNG films.
Old 05-02-13, 08:59 PM
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Re: Which Is Worse: Star Trek I or V?

I did not like Star Trek: The Motion Picture. I thought it had a few good moments (like the opening Klingon sequence), but overall it was too stilted and poorly paced. That was my view of the movie for many years.

Then I saw the "Director's Edition" that was released on DVD. This seemed to improve the movie a lot: the pacing was better, the additional character scenes added a lot, the effects were drastically improved. It was so much better, that I thought this was the best improvement of a movie due to a director's cut I had ever seen!

But then later I wondered.... if maybe the movie wasn't really improved and instead I had just started to like the movie better, due to getting older and maybe being a bit more nostalgic for it. So I saw the original theatrical cut again on the Blu-ray release (which does not have the "Director's Edition" on it at all - that's still just on DVD). And, once again, the film looked too stilted and poorly paced. So it really was the "Director's Edition" that improved the movie, not my nostalgia. And until the "Director's Edition" finally is converted to Blu-ray (given the money cow that Star Trek is, it's almost certain that Paramount will do this one day), the DVD is the only way I'll watch the movie again.

And one thing I think that makes ST: TMP a good movie (and even better on the "Director's Edition" due to restored scenes adding so much to this) is the subtext of the whole film is really just about Spock.

To explain this interpretation that movie is really about Spock, I'll spoiler tag....
Spoiler:

When Spock first appears in the film, he is on Vulcan undergoing a ritual to remove the last vestiges of emotion from him. But he senses V'Ger out there and leaves before completing the ceremony to see if V'Ger has the answers he is seeking. He joins up with the Enterprise crew and, along with them, encounters V'Ger. He then secretly (because he's there mainly for his own needs, not for the Enterprise's mission) sneaks out and mindmelds with V'Ger to find out if that is what he is seeking. Through the mindmeld, he learns about V'Ger and realizes that V'Ger has achieved the levels of logic and knowledge he thought was his own personal goal. But despite this, V'Ger is empty inside due to the lack of emotion. This understanding is shown in the scene where Spock is recuperating in Sick Bay after the mindmeld. Spock grasps his hand with Kirk's hand and says "this simple feeling is beyond V'Ger’s comprehension" because V'Ger has no understanding at all of the feelings in the bond of friendship. And Spock understands that V'Ger, despite having achieved the highest levels of logic and knowledge, asks "Is this all that I am? Is there nothing more?" Which tells Spock then that the pursuit of pure logic and knowledge and the giving up of his emotion is the wrong path for him. So he does not return to Vulcan to complete the ceremony to remove his emotion. And for the first time in his life, Spock is truly content with who he is.

Last edited by dhmac; 05-02-13 at 09:15 PM.
Old 05-02-13, 09:50 PM
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Re: Which Is Worse: Star Trek I or V?

Originally Posted by stvn1974
JJ Abrams Star Trek: 90210 is still the worst Star Trek. At least until I see this new travesty.
Why bother? You just want to hate it so you can feel superior by bad-mouthing the movie. Hell, you'll probably not see it and still complain.
Old 05-02-13, 09:52 PM
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Re: Which Is Worse: Star Trek I or V?

Never liked TMP, V was decent. I understand what Shatner was getting at about the manipulative fake tv pastors.
Old 05-03-13, 03:30 AM
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Re: Which Is Worse: Star Trek I or V?

Originally Posted by Ranger
Never liked TMP, V was decent. I understand what Shatner was getting at about the manipulative fake tv pastors.
Has he ever said that was his intent with the film? I don't see it that way.
Old 05-03-13, 04:02 AM
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Re: Which Is Worse: Star Trek I or V?

I love them both, but TMP is the better of the two. V suffered, unfortunately, from both a writer's strike, and an effects budget cut. The ending, which is the weakest part, was originally going to have Kirk fighting a "rock creature"... either the "God"-being's actual form or another construct of it. Since this was before CGI, it had to be a practical effect, and with the low budget, and a delivery deadline, the sequence was dropped. The scene came to be, however, in the film Galaxy Quest, as an homage to the lost Final Frontier bit.

TMP is one of the great Science Fiction films of all time. Unfortunately, even so-called sci-fi fans don't really want true Science Fiction. What they really want is sci-fi action movies, or science-fantasy movies (or both). Good science fiction takes its time and immerses you in that fictional world. Listen sometime to background crew chatter during the first bridge scene in TMP. Little comments and conversations that really make you feel like this is a functioning space ship, and that you are there. It's rather extraordinary. I also really like the slow pace, but I'm the kind of guy that has sat through 2001 at least 50 times.
Old 05-03-13, 04:28 AM
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Re: Which Is Worse: Star Trek I or V?

I watch either one whenever I catch them on TV. I never really considered if they were bad movies or not.
Old 05-03-13, 04:49 AM
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Re: Which Is Worse: Star Trek I or V?

I have more enjoyment watching V because of it's run-time and pacing. Its faults are noticeable but they don't linger where as TMP uses lingering shots as a cheap means of importance. If Wise had used it once in any one of the long exposition sequences, it would have had more impact and meaning than its use all over the film.

You say that good science fiction immerses you in that fictional world but the 3 minute leaving drydock sequence would have been amazing instead of a re-tread of the 3-4 minute Kirk's pod arriving sequence conveying the exact same idea. By the time you got to the sequence where the Enterprise traverses V'Ger, the extended sequences have me past being taken out of the movie and just looking forward to the end of it.
Old 05-03-13, 08:34 AM
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Re: Which Is Worse: Star Trek I or V?

I agree that TMP is essentially good sci-fi in that it's trying to say something on a philosophical level, drawing comparisons to humanity on a grand scale. The original series did that but often with a lighter tone. From Wrath of Khan forward, it was more about fun adventure. TMP is often slow and, as far as storytelling goes, flounders a bit. But it has my respect for trying. It's a rarity that I'm in the mood for it, and in the overall Trek cannon, it's very, very awkward. But on it's own I can only call it a good movie.
Old 05-03-13, 09:27 AM
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Re: Which Is Worse: Star Trek I or V?

which film had the humpback whales in it? IV? That one was idiotic
Old 05-03-13, 09:34 AM
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Re: Which Is Worse: Star Trek I or V?

I'd rewatch 1, but as I remember seeing it theatrically - it bored me to sleep.
Old 05-03-13, 10:09 AM
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Re: Which Is Worse: Star Trek I or V?

I think it's a fine line to walk when you make a slow paced movie that wants you to think. It's difficult to keep you glued to the screen (like 2001), so if you don't do it perfectly, you lose the audience. I think this is the trap that TMP falls into.

In that regard, it's much easier to make a fun adventure movie. I feel like just about anybody can do so, just look at all the action movies out there. Regardless of the plot, you can throw in an action scene, bits of comedy, etc. If you want to make something deeper, it takes much more ability. So even though TMP doesn't stick the landing, the fact that it's trying to be 2001 instead of trying to be dumb fun gives it more credit IMHO.
Old 05-03-13, 11:21 AM
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Re: Which Is Worse: Star Trek I or V?

I'd watch ST:V over ST:1 any day of the week. ST:1 was just sooo damn boring. ST:V might have had stupid ideas and comedy forced into it but at least it is watchable and you aren't bored watching it.
Old 05-03-13, 12:12 PM
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Re: Which Is Worse: Star Trek I or V?

Originally Posted by moviefan2k4
Has he ever said that was his intent with the film? I don't see it that way.
Shatner conceived his idea for the film's story before he was officially given the director's job. His inspiration was televangelists; "They [the televangelists] were repulsive, strangely horrifying, and yet I became absolutely fascinated," he recalled.[14] Shatner was intrigued that not only did these personalities convince others God was speaking directly to them, but they became wealthy by what Shatner considered false messages. The televangelists formed the basis for the character "Zar", later "Sybok".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_Tr...ier#Production
Also interesting is that they tried to tone down the God stuff but apparently not enough, at least they got rid of the angels/satan/hell etc parts. I think many still were offended or made uncomfortable.
Old 05-03-13, 12:22 PM
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Re: Which Is Worse: Star Trek I or V?

Originally Posted by resinrats
I'd watch ST:V over ST:1 any day of the week. ST:1 was just sooo damn boring. ST:V might have had stupid ideas and comedy forced into it but at least it is watchable and you aren't bored watching it.
I get that side of it too. I think 1 is a better movie than 5, but the Uhura fan dance is more entertaining than the woooorrrrmmmmhhhooooollllleeeee scene.
Old 05-03-13, 12:31 PM
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Re: Which Is Worse: Star Trek I or V?

Originally Posted by wlj
which film had the humpback whales in it? IV? That one was idiotic
Yeah that's Star Trek IV: The Voyage Home. Surprising to see you say it's idiotic as it's generally considered one of the better Trek films. I've always found it fun for the fact that it took the crew out of their normal element. The whale aspect wasn't bad either. It carried a good message about humans needing to preserve our planet and protect the creatures who live on it as well.
Old 05-03-13, 12:36 PM
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Re: Which Is Worse: Star Trek I or V?

Originally Posted by Mike86
Yeah that's Star Trek IV: The Voyage Home. Surprising to see you say it's idiotic as it's generally considered one of the better Trek films. I've always found it fun for the fact that it took the crew out of their normal element. The whale aspect wasn't bad either. It carried a good message about humans needing to preserve our planet and protect the creatures who live on it as well.
I agree...the one Trek movie where they didn't try to copy prior sucesses. There really is no villian in the film, and the "fish out of water" stuff really works.
Old 05-03-13, 12:44 PM
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Re: Which Is Worse: Star Trek I or V?

Originally Posted by superdeluxe
5 was bad...but ONE was a complete mess.
/thread.
Old 05-03-13, 02:39 PM
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Re: Which Is Worse: Star Trek I or V?

Originally Posted by aintnosin
#1 was a deeply flawed attempt to do something ambitious.

#5 was a deeply, deeply flawed to do something brainless and juvenile.
Originally Posted by DthRdrX
I would say that many parts of part 5 do come off as juvenile and brainless, yet the basic story Shatner started with SHOULD have made the best Star Trek movie.

The concept of 'finding god at the center of the universe" should have been Star Trek gold if it was handled correctly.
I remember a Harlan Ellison anecdote where the "finding God" story was his pitch for the first Star Trek movie. You're right ... it's a big idea that should've made for a great movie. Probably why I voted V as being worse. ST:TMP was the first Trek movie and the first Trek of any kind in a decade. I can forgive its flaws. But they should've known better by the time of V how to make a good Trek movie. Though I suppose V is the more watchable movie, if you can accept the crappy stuff and just have fun with it. Not much fun to be had with ST:TMP.
Old 05-03-13, 02:47 PM
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Re: Which Is Worse: Star Trek I or V?

Originally Posted by brainee
I remember a Harlan Ellison anecdote where the "finding God" story was his pitch for the first Star Trek movie. You're right ... it's a big idea that should've made for a great movie. Probably why I voted V as being worse. ST:TMP was the first Trek movie and the first Trek of any kind in a decade. I can forgive its flaws. But they should've known better by the time of V how to make a good Trek movie. Though I suppose V is the more watchable movie, if you can accept the crappy stuff and just have fun with it. Not much fun to be had with ST:TMP.
Harlan also offered to write the new STAR TREK movie, although I don't think Paramount was remotely interested. He did an uncredited script polishing of STAR TREK IV: THE VOYAGE HOME, for those that don't know.
Old 05-03-13, 06:08 PM
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Re: Which Is Worse: Star Trek I or V?

Just to satisfy my own curiosity, I tracked down the source of the Harlan Ellison story. It was from Stephen King's Danse Macabre. Spoilered for length:

Spoiler:
This may be the longest footnote in history, but I really must pause and tell two more Harlan stories, one apocryphal, the other Harlan's version of the same incident.

The apocryphal, which I first heard at a science fiction bookstore, and later at several different fantasy and science fiction conventions: It was told that Paramount Pictures had a preproduction conference of Big Name Science Fiction Writers prior to shooting on StarTrek: The Movie. The purpose of the conference was to toss around ideas for a mission that would be big enough to fly the Starship Enterprise from the cathode tube to the Silver Screen . . . and BIG was the word that the exec in charge of the conference kept emphasizing. One writer suggested that the Enterprise might be sucked into a black hole (the Disney people scoffed that idea up about three months later). The Paramount exec didn't think that was big enough. Another suggested that Kirk, Speck, and company might discover a pulsar that was in fact a living organism. Still not big enough, the writer was admonished; the writers were again reminded that they should think BIG. According to the tale, Ellison sat silent, doing a slow burn . . . only with Harlan, a slow burn lasts only about five seconds. Finally, he spoke up. "The Enterprise," he said, "goes through an interstellar warp, the great-granddaddy of all interstellar warps. It's transported over a googol of light-years in the space of seconds and comes out at a huge gray wall. The wall marks the edge of the entire universe. Scotty rigs full-charge ion Masters which breach the wall so they can see what's beyond the edge of everything. Peering through at them, bathed in an incredible white light, is the face of God Himself."

A brief period of silence followed this. Then the exec said, "It's not big enough. Didn't I just tell you guys to think really BIG?"

In response, Ellison is supposed to have flipped the guy the bird (the Cordwainer Bird, one assumes) and walked out.

Here is Harlan Ellison's recitation of the True Facts:

"Paramount had been trying to get a Star Trek film in work for some time. Roddenberry was determined that his name would be on the writing credits somehow . . . . The trouble is, he can't write for sour owl poop. His one idea, done six or seven times in the series and again in the feature film, is that the crew of the Enterprise goes into deepest space, finds God, and God turns out to be insane, or a child, or both. I'd been called in twice, prior to 1975, to discuss the story. Other writers had also been milked. Paramount couldn't make up their minds and had even kicked Gene off the project a few times, until he brought in lawyers. Then the palace guard changed again at Paramount and Diller and Eisner came over from ABC and brought a cadre of their . . . buddies. One of them was an ex-set designer . . . named A-Park Trabulus.

"Roddenberry suggested me as the scenarist for the film with this Trabulus, the latest . . . of the know-nothing duds Paramount had assigned to the troublesome project. I had a talk with Gene . . . about a storyline. He told me they kept wanting bigger and bigger stories and no matter what was suggested, it wasn't big enough. I devised a storyline and Gene liked it, and set up a meeting with Trabulus for ii December (1975). That meeting was canceled . . . but we finally got together on 15 December. It was just Gene (Roddenberry) and Trabulus and me in Gene's office on the Paramount lot.

"I told them the story. It involved going to the end of the known universe to slip back through time to the Pleistocene period when Man first emerged. I postulated a parallel development of reptile life that might have developed into the dominant species on Earth had not mammals prevailed. I postulated an alien intelligence from a far galaxy where the snakes had become the dominant life form, and a snake-creature who had come to Earth in the Star Trek future, had seen its ancestors wiped out, and who had gone back into the far past of Earth to set up distortions in the time-flow so the reptiles could beat the humans. The Enterprise goes back to set time right, finds the snake-alien, and the human crew is confronted with the moral dilemma of whether it had the right to wipe out an entire life form just to insure its own territorial imperative in our present and future. The story, in short, spanned all of time and all of space, with a moral and ethical problem.

"Trabulus listened to all this and sat silently for a few minutes. Then he said, `You know, I was reading this book by a guy named Von Daniken and he proved that the Maya calendar was exactly like ours, so it must have come from aliens. Could you put in some Mayans?'

"I looked at Gene; Gene looked at me; he said nothing. I looked at Trabulus and said, `There weren't any Mayans at the dawn of time.' And he said, `Well, who's to know the difference?' And I said, "I'm to know the difference. It's a dumb suggestion.' So Trabulus got very uptight and said he liked Mayans a lot and why didn't I do it if I wanted to write this picture. So I said, "I'm a writer. I don't know what the fuck you are!' And I got up and walked out. And that was the end of my association with the Star Trek movie."

Which leaves the rest of us mortals, who can never find exactly the right word at exactly the right time, with nothing to say but "Right on, Harlan!"


The thing with the Mayans sounded like what Kevin Smith had to go through with Jon Peters and his insistence on giant spiders being part of a Superman movie.
Old 05-03-13, 06:08 PM
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Re: Which Is Worse: Star Trek I or V?

Originally Posted by Solid Snake PAC
Which one is V? Is that after the whale one?
the one where they meet god and he turns out to be a phony.
Old 05-03-13, 06:11 PM
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Re: Which Is Worse: Star Trek I or V?

I think every Star Trek movie has some similarities to episodes of one of the TV series.

ST:TMP is similar to TOS episode "The Changeling" with some elements of the episode "The Immunity Syndrome" mixed in. These are two of the best episodes of TOS. (ST:TMP has so much in common with "The Changeling" that the movie has picked up the tagline "Where Nomad Has Gone Before")

ST V: TFF, on the other hand, is most similar to TOS episode "The Way To Eden" which is easily one of the worst episodes of TOS or any ST series. It's the one where Space Hippies lead by a charismatic leader hijack the Enterprise to go to the planet that's called "Eden" - but when they get there, the place sucks and they (mostly) die. Substitute New Age Hippies for Space Hippies, and ST V is the same basic story.

ST: TMP is rooted in a great episode, while ST V is rooted in one of the worst episodes. That sums it up well.
Old 05-03-13, 06:27 PM
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Re: Which Is Worse: Star Trek I or V?

Originally Posted by brainee
Just to satisfy my own curiosity, I tracked down the source of the Harlan Ellison story. It was from Stephen King's Danse Macabre. Spoilered for length:

Spoiler:


"I told them the story. It involved going to the end of the known universe to slip back through time to the Pleistocene period when Man first emerged. I postulated a parallel development of reptile life that might have developed into the dominant species on Earth had not mammals prevailed. I postulated an alien intelligence from a far galaxy where the snakes had become the dominant life form, and a snake-creature who had come to Earth in the Star Trek future, had seen its ancestors wiped out, and who had gone back into the far past of Earth to set up distortions in the time-flow so the reptiles could beat the humans. The Enterprise goes back to set time right, finds the snake-alien, and the human crew is confronted with the moral dilemma of whether it had the right to wipe out an entire life form just to insure its own territorial imperative in our present and future. The story, in short, spanned all of time and all of space, with a moral and ethical problem.

"Trabulus listened to all this and sat silently for a few minutes. Then he said, `You know, I was reading this book by a guy named Von Daniken and he proved that the Maya calendar was exactly like ours, so it must have come from aliens. Could you put in some Mayans?'

"I looked at Gene; Gene looked at me; he said nothing. I looked at Trabulus and said, `There weren't any Mayans at the dawn of time.' And he said, `Well, who's to know the difference?' And I said, "I'm to know the difference. It's a dumb suggestion.' So Trabulus got very uptight and said he liked Mayans a lot and why didn't I do it if I wanted to write this picture. So I said, "I'm a writer. I don't know what the fuck you are!' And I got up and walked out. And that was the end of my association with the Star Trek movie."

Which leaves the rest of us mortals, who can never find exactly the right word at exactly the right time, with nothing to say but "Right on, Harlan!"


The thing with the Mayans sounded like what Kevin Smith had to go through with Jon Peters and his insistence on giant spiders being part of a Superman movie.
The Mayans could have been worked into the story easily by changing it from the Pleistocene to Pre-Classic era, and have it be the Mayans who wiped out the lizard people. The Mayans and other Mesoamericans worshiped snake/reptile gods like Quetzalcoatl.
Old 05-03-13, 08:56 PM
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Re: Which Is Worse: Star Trek I or V?

I like Star Trek 5. You have to look at it for what it is. A cheesy, fun scifi adventure. If you go into it with that viewpoint, you'll have a great time. Cheesy, fun scifi...that's what Star Trek has always been. I don't understand the hate for ST V. Sybok is an amazing character. Not a bad guy in the traditional sense. Just...misguided a bit, perhaps. Definately my favourite character in the movie.


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