What's the deal with 'The Nightmare Before Christmas?'
#51
DVD Talk Legend
Re: What's the deal with 'The Nightmare Before Christmas?'
The following is all my conjecture: In the case of TNBC, think about 1992. For animation, Disney was the only game in town... Burton pitches these two [projects] (Nightmare and James) and Disney picks them up because a) they "know" animation and b) even if they dump the [project] and lose money on it they control the rights and they'd rather control the rights to any and all animation properties than let another studio get the jump on R&D.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Nig...mas#Production
James and the Giant Peach may be another story, but that seems to have been produced due to the (relative) success of TNBC.
If another studio took nightmare and made it a big hit right out of the gate, that would extinguish Disney's flame as the "kings of animation" just a little bit. This is effectivly what happened when Dreamworks began having hit animated features in the late '90s.
#53
Banned
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Conducting miss-aisle drills and listening to their rock n roll
Posts: 20,052
Received 168 Likes
on
126 Posts
Re: What's the deal with 'The Nightmare Before Christmas?'
I didn't know that bit about Disney retaining the rights from the development period in the '80s.
That's not what I meant. What I meant was that when Dreamworks (and Warner and to a tiny extent Fox) had animated hits in the late '90s it hurt their image as the only animation game in town.
That's not what I meant. What I meant was that when Dreamworks (and Warner and to a tiny extent Fox) had animated hits in the late '90s it hurt their image as the only animation game in town.
Last edited by Mabuse; 10-27-10 at 02:48 PM.
#54
DVD Talk Legend
Re: What's the deal with 'The Nightmare Before Christmas?'
It's only after Pixar stole the animation crown with their CGI films did the other studios get a shot at it (usually by funding efforts from small CGI studios like PDI or Blue Sky). And Pixar's success is tempered by the fact that Disney co-produced and distributed those films.
I highly doubt that in 1990-1991, a stop-motion animated film about Halloween screamed "breakout smash" to anyone. Stop-motion is at least as old as cel animation, and it's never really taken the audience by storm.
Last edited by Jay G.; 10-27-10 at 10:17 PM.
#55
Moderator
Re: What's the deal with 'The Nightmare Before Christmas?'
That has more to do with the rise of CGI though. Dreamworks faltered on their cel animated films (Road to El Dorado, Voyages of Sinbad), as did Fox (Anastasia, Titan A.E.), and Warner (Quest for Camelot, The Iron Giant).
It's only after Pixar stole the animation crown with their CGI films did the other studios get a shot at it (usually by funding efforts from small CGI studios like PDI or Blue Sky). And Pixar's success is tempered by the fact that Disney co-produced and distributed those films.
I highly doubt that in 1990-1991, a stop-motion animated film about Halloween screamed "breakout smash" to anyone. Stop-motion is at least as old as cel animation, and it's never really taken then audience by storm.
It's only after Pixar stole the animation crown with their CGI films did the other studios get a shot at it (usually by funding efforts from small CGI studios like PDI or Blue Sky). And Pixar's success is tempered by the fact that Disney co-produced and distributed those films.
I highly doubt that in 1990-1991, a stop-motion animated film about Halloween screamed "breakout smash" to anyone. Stop-motion is at least as old as cel animation, and it's never really taken then audience by storm.
yet there are more CGI movies out there that have far worse scripts than cel/stop motion films, just because CGI animated films are spangley and eye candy sometimes (and usually) hides the fact that it's just a polished turd: Ice Age 2, Alpha & Omega, Fly Me to the Moon etc etc.
#56
DVD Talk Legend
Re: What's the deal with 'The Nightmare Before Christmas?'
Other studios were interested in copying Disney's success, but they did so by literally copying Disney's successes, which meant mainly producing cel-animated princess and/or musical adventures. It was really Disney that was taking risks, producing two stop-motion features after a dearth of them in theaters (the last one being The Adventures of Mark Twain in 1985), and then producing a fully CGI film from a little upstart studio spun off from Lucasfilm.
it's a common new Hollywood belief that if it isn't CGI it will fail.
yet there are more CGI movies out there that have far worse scripts than cel/stop motion films, just because CGI animated films are spangley and eye candy sometimes (and usually) hides the fact that it's just a polished turd: Ice Age 2, Alpha & Omega, Fly Me to the Moon etc etc.
#57
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 638
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Re: What's the deal with 'The Nightmare Before Christmas?'
Because it's everywhere, and it annoys me. Maybe if I didn't go to Disneyland all the time I wouldn't see it so much, but I do and it's so commercialized and merchandized and cutesy that I just get irritated. I know that I probably love a thousand other things that could fit into that category, but for some reason this irks me more than anything else.
#58
Moderator
Re: What's the deal with 'The Nightmare Before Christmas?'
but Disney is certainly milking the Nightmare Before Christmas franchise - I saw NEW stuff over at Barnes and Nobles the other day.
#59
DVD Talk Legend
#60
Banned
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Conducting miss-aisle drills and listening to their rock n roll
Posts: 20,052
Received 168 Likes
on
126 Posts
Re: What's the deal with 'The Nightmare Before Christmas?'
That has more to do with the rise of CGI though. Dreamworks faltered on their cel animated films (Road to El Dorado, Voyages of Sinbad), as did Fox (Anastasia, Titan A.E.), and Warner (Quest for Camelot, The Iron Giant).
It's only after Pixar stole the animation crown with their CGI films did the other studios get a shot at it (usually by funding efforts from small CGI studios like PDI or Blue Sky). And Pixar's success is tempered by the fact that Disney co-produced and distributed those films.
I highly doubt that in 1990-1991, a stop-motion animated film about Halloween screamed "breakout smash" to anyone. Stop-motion is at least as old as cel animation, and it's never really taken the audience by storm.
It's only after Pixar stole the animation crown with their CGI films did the other studios get a shot at it (usually by funding efforts from small CGI studios like PDI or Blue Sky). And Pixar's success is tempered by the fact that Disney co-produced and distributed those films.
I highly doubt that in 1990-1991, a stop-motion animated film about Halloween screamed "breakout smash" to anyone. Stop-motion is at least as old as cel animation, and it's never really taken the audience by storm.
#61
DVD Talk Legend
Re: What's the deal with 'The Nightmare Before Christmas?'
http://www.boxofficemojo.com/movies/?id=anastasia.htm
http://www.boxofficemojo.com/yearly/...yr=1997&p=.htm
Speaking of $100 million, Prince of Egypt grossed approximately that amount domestically when it was released, so it wasn't that big a hit either. Mulan grossed $120 million the same year, and A Bug's Life grossed $170 million. Now, maybe with worldwide grossses factored in, Prince of Egypt made money, but it was nowhere near the $220 million of Aladdin or the $170 million of Beauty and the Beast.
http://www.boxofficemojo.com/movies/...nceofegypt.htm
http://www.boxofficemojo.com/yearly/...yr=1998&p=.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DreamWorks_Animation#Films
It should also be noted that it wasn't like the other studios were waiting until the late 90s, or even for CGI, to make animated films. There were sporadic attempts at animation throughout the previous decade, the most prominent example being Don Bluth's (relative) success during the 80s.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Don_Blu...ependent_years
#63
DVD Talk Godfather
Join Date: Apr 1999
Location: Gateway Cities/Harbor Region
Posts: 63,299
Received 1,815 Likes
on
1,131 Posts
#64
Moderator
#65
DVD Talk Hall of Fame
Join Date: Jun 1999
Location: Part of the Left-Wing Conspiracy
Posts: 7,541
Received 208 Likes
on
120 Posts
Re: What's the deal with 'The Nightmare Before Christmas?'
Anastasia was not a hit for Fox. It only grossed $58 million domestically, and only $81 million worldwide. In comparison, Hercules by Disney, released the same year, grossed around $100 million domestically, and that film's largely considered a box-office flop.
http://www.boxofficemojo.com/movies/?id=anastasia.htm
http://www.boxofficemojo.com/yearly/...yr=1997&p=.htm
Speaking of $100 million, Prince of Egypt grossed approximately that amount domestically when it was released, so it wasn't that big a hit either. Mulan grossed $120 million the same year, and A Bug's Life grossed $170 million. Now, maybe with worldwide grossses factored in, Prince of Egypt made money, but it was nowhere near the $220 million of Aladdin or the $170 million of Beauty and the Beast.
http://www.boxofficemojo.com/movies/...nceofegypt.htm
http://www.boxofficemojo.com/yearly/...yr=1998&p=.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DreamWorks_Animation#Films
It should also be noted that it wasn't like the other studios were waiting until the late 90s, or even for CGI, to make animated films. There were sporadic attempts at animation throughout the previous decade, the most prominent example being Don Bluth's (relative) success during the 80s.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Don_Blu...ependent_years
http://www.boxofficemojo.com/movies/?id=anastasia.htm
http://www.boxofficemojo.com/yearly/...yr=1997&p=.htm
Speaking of $100 million, Prince of Egypt grossed approximately that amount domestically when it was released, so it wasn't that big a hit either. Mulan grossed $120 million the same year, and A Bug's Life grossed $170 million. Now, maybe with worldwide grossses factored in, Prince of Egypt made money, but it was nowhere near the $220 million of Aladdin or the $170 million of Beauty and the Beast.
http://www.boxofficemojo.com/movies/...nceofegypt.htm
http://www.boxofficemojo.com/yearly/...yr=1998&p=.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DreamWorks_Animation#Films
It should also be noted that it wasn't like the other studios were waiting until the late 90s, or even for CGI, to make animated films. There were sporadic attempts at animation throughout the previous decade, the most prominent example being Don Bluth's (relative) success during the 80s.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Don_Blu...ependent_years
#66
DVD Talk Legend
Re: What's the deal with 'The Nightmare Before Christmas?'
For example, TNBC made $50 million in 1993, while Anastasia made $58 million in 1997. Ticket prices inflated about 10% in that time, from $4.14 to $4.59. Adjusting TNBC's domestic gross for inflation puts it at about $55 million in 1997 dollars. So if Anastasia was a "hit" when it was first release, so was TNBC.
http://www.boxofficemojo.com/movies/...echristmas.htm
http://www.boxofficemojo.com/about/adjuster.htm
And again, Prince of Egypt grossed about as much as Disney's Hercules did the year before. So if Prince of Egypt was a "hit", then so was Hercules.
However, the common wisdom is that both TNBC and Hercules were not hits.
Last edited by Jay G.; 11-02-10 at 07:44 PM.
#67
DVD Talk Hall of Fame
Re: What's the deal with 'The Nightmare Before Christmas?'
I've been a fan of The Nightmare Before Christmas since I was a kid, before all of the Hot Topic merchandising. Sure, it annoys me to see all the emo/goth kids wearing stuff with Jack Skellington, etc. but I also don't really care what they do. It doesn't affect my enjoyment of the movie at all. Loved it as a kid and still love it today.
I also enjoy James And The Giant Peach, although it wasn't nearly as good as The Nightmare Before Christmas. Coraline though, I'd argue is probably better than The Nightmare Before Christmas.
I also enjoy James And The Giant Peach, although it wasn't nearly as good as The Nightmare Before Christmas. Coraline though, I'd argue is probably better than The Nightmare Before Christmas.
#68
DVD Talk Hall of Fame
Re: What's the deal with 'The Nightmare Before Christmas?'
Box office figures are only part of evaluating an animated film with a strong merchandising campaign. Remember The Prince of Egypt had three different soundtracks, featuring every big name artist in pop, country and Christian music they could recruit? Jessica Andrews was introduced to the world through the country version (and promptly forgotten within a year), but otherwise none of them amounted to much. Toys collected dust on shelves and no kid went as Anastasia or Moses for Halloween. It shouldn't factor into how a movie is evaluated, but it does because the movie was really just one cog in the merchandising wheel...and that wheel didn't turn.
#69
DVD Talk Legend
Re: What's the deal with 'The Nightmare Before Christmas?'
For example, The Iron Giant, one of the best animated films ever, grossed a paltry $23 million domestic. As much as I love that film, there's no denying that it was a box-office bomb.
http://www.boxofficemojo.com/movies/?id=irongiant.htm
I do agree with the point about merchandising also being a factor in determining whether a film is a "hit" in terms of financial success and popularity. However, there's not typically numbers for how much a film has grossed via merchandising, so it's much harder to quantify than box-office.
However, as far as enduring popularity goes, it interesting to look up the prices for the movies' respective soundtracks. All three of Prince of Egypt's soundtracks can be gotten these days for $1-$2 new, while TNBC soundtrack and spinoffs command a higher price (the lowest being a $4.99 sale price for the 2-disc SE from Amazon and Best Buy this week).
http://www.google.com/products?hl=en...ypt+soundtrack
http://www.google.com/products?q=nig...mas+soundtrack
#70
DVD Talk Hall of Fame
Re: What's the deal with 'The Nightmare Before Christmas?'
I do agree with the point about merchandising also being a factor in determining whether a film is a "hit" in terms of financial success and popularity. However, there's not typically numbers for how much a film has grossed via merchandising, so it's much harder to quantify than box-office.
However, as far as enduring popularity goes, it interesting to look up the prices for the movies' respective soundtracks. All three of Prince of Egypt's soundtracks can be gotten these days for $1-$2 new, while TNBC soundtrack and spinoffs command a higher price (the lowest being a $4.99 sale price for the 2-disc SE from Amazon and Best Buy this week).
Wisecracking animals > animated takes on historical figures.
#71
DVD Talk Legend
Re: What's the deal with 'The Nightmare Before Christmas?'
I think the easiest way to get a sense of it is just to ask, "Was there a sequel or a spin-off?" Because studios have been absolutely shameless in that behavior with anything they think they can sell to families. Granted, it's kind of hard to do a sequel to Anastasia or Prince of Egypt, but they could easily have done some kind of outside-the-movie spinoff if they wished.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bartok_the_Magnificent
Prince of Egypt had the DTV prequel/spin-off Joseph: King of Dreams in 2000:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph:_King_of_Dreams
Granted, those spin-offs are even less memorable than the original films, but they happened.
#72
DVD Talk Hall of Fame
Re: What's the deal with 'The Nightmare Before Christmas?'
Anastasia had the DTV spin-off Bartok the Magnificent in 1999:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bartok_the_Magnificent
Prince of Egypt had the DTV prequel/spin-off Joseph: King of Dreams in 2000:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph:_King_of_Dreams
Granted, those spin-offs are even less memorable than the original films, but they happened.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bartok_the_Magnificent
Prince of Egypt had the DTV prequel/spin-off Joseph: King of Dreams in 2000:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph:_King_of_Dreams
Granted, those spin-offs are even less memorable than the original films, but they happened.
#73
DVD Talk Legend
Re: What's the deal with 'The Nightmare Before Christmas?'
I somehow missed this in my early 20's when it first came out and finally got around to watching it last night. As a fan of stop motion animation in general, there is some fantastic work done here. Both in creativity of character design and in how well they all move and interact.
But the story felt rushed, without enough depth to what Jack does and why he would want something different. Same with Sally. What she does, is done well (intentionally defenestrating herself because she knows she can reassemble was clever-cute), but just didn't seem that deep.
I can see why it appealed to a certain segment, but not sure how it's kept Hot Topic in business for 25 years.
Might try it again next Halloween to see how it settles in my mind.
But the story felt rushed, without enough depth to what Jack does and why he would want something different. Same with Sally. What she does, is done well (intentionally defenestrating herself because she knows she can reassemble was clever-cute), but just didn't seem that deep.
I can see why it appealed to a certain segment, but not sure how it's kept Hot Topic in business for 25 years.
Might try it again next Halloween to see how it settles in my mind.
#75
DVD Talk Legend
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Formerly known as Groucho AND Bandoman/Death Moans, Iowa
Posts: 18,295
Received 372 Likes
on
266 Posts
Re: What's the deal with 'The Nightmare Before Christmas?'
I watched it again the other night and I feel like if they have a whole year to plan that their Halloween celebration should be longer than one song.