Indiana Jones (Original Trilogy) Confusion
#53
Thread Starter
Moderator
Originally Posted by Fanboy
In the novelization, he uses his bullwhip to tie himself to the periscope for the journey.
#54
DVD Talk Limited Edition
Originally Posted by Fanboy
In the novelization, he uses his bullwhip to tie himself to the periscope for the journey.
#55
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From: Chicago, IL
Originally Posted by Wolf359
Surprised this hasn't been posted yet....
Did the Nazi sub never submerge and Indy just hang onto the periscope all the way to the secret base?
Edited to add a more serious question:
How did Indy know that keeping your eyes closed would save them from what was about to happen? For that matter, how did he know something bad was about to happen? Just a good guess?
Did the Nazi sub never submerge and Indy just hang onto the periscope all the way to the secret base?
Edited to add a more serious question:
How did Indy know that keeping your eyes closed would save them from what was about to happen? For that matter, how did he know something bad was about to happen? Just a good guess?
#56
Originally Posted by Wolf359
Did the Nazi sub never submerge and Indy just hang onto the periscope all the way to the secret base?
#58
DVD Talk Gold Edition
Originally Posted by Groucho
Consider this: Indy carried around a 15,000 page book, from which he could flip to the page about the Ark at a moment's notice. It's safe to say that he was an expert on the subject.
That scene always bugged me. Never heard anyone mention it until now.
#59
DVD Talk Platinum Edition
Originally Posted by chanster
I think the point, at least in the Old Testament, was that God never really showed himself to anyone..i.e. there was always signs of God, and maybe the voice of God, but God never revelead himself to anyone (i.e. Moses and the burning bush). Jews till this day won't even say the word God. I think the idea is that whatever is in the Ark belongs to God and it isn't meant to be available to human eyes.
If you notice in the film, Belok is wearing The High Priest garb. He was taking on the role of High Priest, unfortunatly for him he realized to late that simply acting like a High Priest does not a High Priest make you.
They were trying to harness the power of the Ark, which was concieved by God, thereby trying to harness the power of God...not gonna work.
So yes, the Ark and what was inside,(Ten Commandments, Golden Jar with Manna, Rod of Aaron that budded, although the last 2 were removed later) were placed by God, and owned by God and like I mentioned could not be touched, and was usually not even seen by anyone. Therefore, the thought that perhaps closing ones eyes would save you, would be about the only thing in that situation (tied Up) you could do.
And remember, God is just a title, its not God's name. I do not know if Jews will say 'God', but many will not say his name much -YHWH or Jehovah because of the lack of vowels in Hebrew. (Although the Bible doesnt hide the name at all, its used almost 7,000 times, and it never says anything about not saying it, actually in many verses it talks about using it and people knowing it).
Remember Last Crusade it mentions Gods name Jehovah, and even briefly says something of the spelling.
#61
Challenge Guru & Comic Nerd
Originally Posted by rennervision
How did snakes survive thousands of years buried inside the lost city of Tanis?
#62
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From: Chicago, IL
Originally Posted by foofighters7
If you notice in the film, Belok is wearing The High Priest garb. He was taking on the role of High Priest, unfortunatly for him he realized to late that simply acting like a High Priest does not a High Priest make you.
They were trying to harness the power of the Ark, which was concieved by God, thereby trying to harness the power of God...not gonna work.
So yes, the Ark and what was inside,(Ten Commandments, Golden Jar with Manna, Rod of Aaron that budded, although the last 2 were removed later) were placed by God, and owned by God and like I mentioned could not be touched, and was usually not even seen by anyone. Therefore, the thought that perhaps closing ones eyes would save you, would be about the only thing in that situation (tied Up) you could do.
And remember, God is just a title, its not God's name. I do not know if Jews will say 'God', but many will not say his name much -YHWH or Jehovah because of the lack of vowels in Hebrew. (Although the Bible doesnt hide the name at all, its used almost 7,000 times, and it never says anything about not saying it, actually in many verses it talks about using it and people knowing it).
Remember Last Crusade it mentions Gods name Jehovah, and even briefly says something of the spelling.
They were trying to harness the power of the Ark, which was concieved by God, thereby trying to harness the power of God...not gonna work.
So yes, the Ark and what was inside,(Ten Commandments, Golden Jar with Manna, Rod of Aaron that budded, although the last 2 were removed later) were placed by God, and owned by God and like I mentioned could not be touched, and was usually not even seen by anyone. Therefore, the thought that perhaps closing ones eyes would save you, would be about the only thing in that situation (tied Up) you could do.
And remember, God is just a title, its not God's name. I do not know if Jews will say 'God', but many will not say his name much -YHWH or Jehovah because of the lack of vowels in Hebrew. (Although the Bible doesnt hide the name at all, its used almost 7,000 times, and it never says anything about not saying it, actually in many verses it talks about using it and people knowing it).
Remember Last Crusade it mentions Gods name Jehovah, and even briefly says something of the spelling.
The word "adonai" which means Lord is what is used in the Hebrew Bible and that is what is used, according to your calcs, 7,000 times.
Last edited by chanster; 05-14-08 at 05:39 PM.
#63
DVD Talk Gold Edition
Originally Posted by chanster
... I think the idea is that whatever is in the Ark belongs to God and it isn't meant to be available to human eyes.
Although it held a few other things, the ark was primarily a container for the tablets containing the 10 commandments. The laws God wrote out for Moses to take to his people. For them to see, presumably, else why have Moses take them to his people?
Think about it. The 10 commandments are laws man is supposed to live by... and men aren't supposed to be able to read them?
What's wrong with this picture?
#64
DVD Talk Platinum Edition
Originally Posted by chanster
I believe you are partially correct, but the Jewish version of the Old Testament ("the Torah") never says "God" it says "the Lord" The Lord is not God's name, and observant Jews will never say the word "God." Theoretically, the jewish name for God is Yahweh, which was converted to Jehovah by early Christinas.
The word "adonai" which means Lord is what is used in the Hebrew Bible and that is what is used, according to your calcs, 7,000 times.
The word "adonai" which means Lord is what is used in the Hebrew Bible and that is what is used, according to your calcs, 7,000 times.
Actually ’Adho‧nai′ which translated literally means 'Soverign Lord' was put in later, that is not original. The Jews substituted it for the YHWH. The Tetragrammaton of YHWH or JHWH is the original name of God, (of course without the missing Vowels.) Yahweh is acceptable although in English Jehovah is used most. Both are acceptable, but without have the exact vowels its not 100% known the exact pronunciation of Gods Name.
#65
DVD Talk Platinum Edition
The snakes always threw me off as well. When they removed the stone, air escaped which made you think it had been shut off to man since it was sealed.
Although maybe it was just some strong up-winds or whatnot...
whatever it was, I always was a bit confused with this as well.
There was nothing in any of them that jumped the shark IMO, nothing that made me go,, wait wait wait, thats just STUPID!!! hehe, then again I was about 3 the first time I seen it. Its always been one of my favs. Each day before Kindergarden I would watch either this or Back to the Future...
Although maybe it was just some strong up-winds or whatnot...
whatever it was, I always was a bit confused with this as well.
There was nothing in any of them that jumped the shark IMO, nothing that made me go,, wait wait wait, thats just STUPID!!! hehe, then again I was about 3 the first time I seen it. Its always been one of my favs. Each day before Kindergarden I would watch either this or Back to the Future...
#66
Member
Originally Posted by Jon2
This is one of those things where I have a problem with theology. Not the movie because it takes its cue from theology.
Although it held a few other things, the ark was primarily a container for the tablets containing the 10 commandments. The laws God wrote out for Moses to take to his people. For them to see, presumably, else why have Moses take them to his people?
Think about it. The 10 commandments are laws man is supposed to live by... and men aren't supposed to be able to read them?
What's wrong with this picture?
Although it held a few other things, the ark was primarily a container for the tablets containing the 10 commandments. The laws God wrote out for Moses to take to his people. For them to see, presumably, else why have Moses take them to his people?
Think about it. The 10 commandments are laws man is supposed to live by... and men aren't supposed to be able to read them?
What's wrong with this picture?
God wrote them down so Moses wouldn't forget them as he walked down from the mountain. I can easily imagine Moses trying to remember the 10 commandments from memory and worrying about messing them all up once he returned. Plus 15 commandments was too many to memorize anyway.
#68
DVD Talk Legend
Here's an old blog post I wrote on the many problems with the Jones films.
One problem I didn't address is that Indy doesn't really accomplish anything in "Raiders" apart from rescuing Marion and the headpiece in Nepal -- if he'd gone home after that, the world would be just as well off. The Nazis only had one side of the headpiece and would've spent years digging in the wrong place. Even if they did find the Ark, they would've taken it to an island, opened it ... and everyone would melt. When a rescue team came to investigate, they'd open it ... and melt. It didn't matter if the Nazis got the Ark because God would never let them use it as a weapon.
A discussion of plot holes in rec.arts.movies.past-films has turned to Raiders of the Lost Ark. Great movie though it is, the plot is more riddled with holes than Dillinger's corpse -- why was a division of Nazi troops running around unmolested in a British protectorate; how did Indy survive while clinging to the hull of a sub (even if it didn't submerge, the crew should've spotted him from the conning tower); how did Indy and Marion get off the Nazi island with the Ark; and why did Indy have a two-man plane waiting just over the hill from the Hovito temple at the beginning.
That last one raises some interesting questions about Dr. Jones' character.
First, let's consider what we know of him. He's supposedly an accredited archaeologist, but in Temple of Doom a character accuses him of being a grave robber, and notes that several countries have kicked him out and threatened dire punishments if he ever returns. Nothing we see in the movies disproves the accusations. In fact, Jones' archaeological techniques match Belloq's description of the Nazis' -- of using "a bulldozer to find a china cup". Dr. Jones has no interest in learning about ancient cultures -- he just wants to find the loot, even if he destroys whole structures in the process.
The film's also show us that he's quite a lothario -- we see him with three women over the course of four years, two of whom he definitely slept with (making him extremely promiscuous by the standards of the time). His classes attract a large number of female students who gaze at him with googly eyes. Near the beginning of Raiders we see a girl in one of his classes with "I love you" painted on her eye lids, which disconcerts Dr. Jones in the middle of his lecture. Upon first viewing we assume he's caught off guard by a student having a crush on him, but that seems unlikely in retrospect. And then consider what we learn about his relationship with Marion later in the film:
MARION: You son-of-a-bitch! You know what you did to me, to my life? This is your handiwork.
INDY: I never meant to hurt you.
MARION: I was a child!
INDY: You knew what you were doing.
MARION: I was in love.
INDY: I guess that depends on your definition.
MARION: It was wrong. You knew it.
Dr. Jones is clearly a sexual Neanderthal who seduces women and tosses them aside once he's had his fun. So when viewing the classroom scene we must ask ourselves, does the student simply have a crush, or is there more to it. Perhaps she's another notch on Jones' headboard, and he's disconcerted because she can't take the hint the he's done with her.
This might also explain why in Raiders Indy is teaching at a California college, but by The Last Crusade he's in New York. Perhaps his college grew tired of his peccadilloes and gave him the boot. Or alternatively, maybe they grew tired of him skiving off classes without any notice to head to South America on a treasure hunting expedition.
Which brings us back to the initial question -- what was that plane doing there, just over the hill from the Hovito temple? We know Jones didn't fly there since (A) we see him and his companions trekking through the jungle a lot farther than the distance from the plane, and (B) the plane only had room for Jones and the pilot. So that means Jones had to know the location of the temple in advance and told the pilot where to meet him, and that he had no intention of taking his companions along after he got the idol. The obvious conclusion to draw is that he knew in advance that the area was filled with booby traps and wanted companions along to use as catspaws to trigger them. If any of his men survived the temple, they'd be left for a Hovito stewpot.
In light of these facts, we must also reconsider the actions of Alfred Molina's character, Satipo, who betrayed Jones in the temple. To a viewer who accepts Spielberg's manipulative telling of the story, Satipo is a rat bastard who betrayed Jones. But obviously he twigged to Jones' plan and decided to beat him to the punch.
Thankfully there was a reputable archaeologist on the scene, who, though he failed to save poor Satipo, stopped Jones from stealing the Hopito's rightful property and heritage. If Belloq hadn't been foolish enough to take a Nazi grant for his expedition, he'd be the hero of the movie. As it is, the only thing Jones has going for him is that he hates Nazis, which isn't a particularly high bar.
NEXT WEEK: E.T.: friendly alien, or advance scout for an invasion fleet?
That last one raises some interesting questions about Dr. Jones' character.
First, let's consider what we know of him. He's supposedly an accredited archaeologist, but in Temple of Doom a character accuses him of being a grave robber, and notes that several countries have kicked him out and threatened dire punishments if he ever returns. Nothing we see in the movies disproves the accusations. In fact, Jones' archaeological techniques match Belloq's description of the Nazis' -- of using "a bulldozer to find a china cup". Dr. Jones has no interest in learning about ancient cultures -- he just wants to find the loot, even if he destroys whole structures in the process.
The film's also show us that he's quite a lothario -- we see him with three women over the course of four years, two of whom he definitely slept with (making him extremely promiscuous by the standards of the time). His classes attract a large number of female students who gaze at him with googly eyes. Near the beginning of Raiders we see a girl in one of his classes with "I love you" painted on her eye lids, which disconcerts Dr. Jones in the middle of his lecture. Upon first viewing we assume he's caught off guard by a student having a crush on him, but that seems unlikely in retrospect. And then consider what we learn about his relationship with Marion later in the film:
MARION: You son-of-a-bitch! You know what you did to me, to my life? This is your handiwork.
INDY: I never meant to hurt you.
MARION: I was a child!
INDY: You knew what you were doing.
MARION: I was in love.
INDY: I guess that depends on your definition.
MARION: It was wrong. You knew it.
Dr. Jones is clearly a sexual Neanderthal who seduces women and tosses them aside once he's had his fun. So when viewing the classroom scene we must ask ourselves, does the student simply have a crush, or is there more to it. Perhaps she's another notch on Jones' headboard, and he's disconcerted because she can't take the hint the he's done with her.
This might also explain why in Raiders Indy is teaching at a California college, but by The Last Crusade he's in New York. Perhaps his college grew tired of his peccadilloes and gave him the boot. Or alternatively, maybe they grew tired of him skiving off classes without any notice to head to South America on a treasure hunting expedition.
Which brings us back to the initial question -- what was that plane doing there, just over the hill from the Hovito temple? We know Jones didn't fly there since (A) we see him and his companions trekking through the jungle a lot farther than the distance from the plane, and (B) the plane only had room for Jones and the pilot. So that means Jones had to know the location of the temple in advance and told the pilot where to meet him, and that he had no intention of taking his companions along after he got the idol. The obvious conclusion to draw is that he knew in advance that the area was filled with booby traps and wanted companions along to use as catspaws to trigger them. If any of his men survived the temple, they'd be left for a Hovito stewpot.
In light of these facts, we must also reconsider the actions of Alfred Molina's character, Satipo, who betrayed Jones in the temple. To a viewer who accepts Spielberg's manipulative telling of the story, Satipo is a rat bastard who betrayed Jones. But obviously he twigged to Jones' plan and decided to beat him to the punch.
Thankfully there was a reputable archaeologist on the scene, who, though he failed to save poor Satipo, stopped Jones from stealing the Hopito's rightful property and heritage. If Belloq hadn't been foolish enough to take a Nazi grant for his expedition, he'd be the hero of the movie. As it is, the only thing Jones has going for him is that he hates Nazis, which isn't a particularly high bar.
NEXT WEEK: E.T.: friendly alien, or advance scout for an invasion fleet?
#69
Thread Starter
Moderator
How do we know that God had a problem with the Nazis? Maybe his real problem was with Belloq and/or French people in general and the Nazis were just collateral damage.
#70
Challenge Guru & Comic Nerd
Originally Posted by Groucho
How do we know that God had a problem with the Nazis? Maybe his real problem was with Belloq and/or French people in general and the Nazis were just collateral damage.
#71
DVD Talk Hero
Originally Posted by Jon2
the ark was primarily a container for the tablets containing the 10 commandments. The laws God wrote out for Moses to take to his people. For them to see, presumably, else why have Moses take them to his people?
MUSGROVE
What's that supposed to be coming
out of there?
INDY
Who knows... lightning... fire...
the power of God.
What's that supposed to be coming
out of there?
INDY
Who knows... lightning... fire...
the power of God.
Leave outisde theology out of it... if the movie says it may contain God's power, you have to roll with the movie logic (suspension of disbelief)
#72
DVD Talk Legend
Originally Posted by chanster
I think the point, at least in the Old Testament, was that God never really showed himself to anyone..i.e. there was always signs of God, and maybe the voice of God, but God never revelead himself to anyone (i.e. Moses and the burning bush). Jews till this day won't even say the word God. I think the idea is that whatever is in the Ark belongs to God and it isn't meant to be available to human eyes.
#74
DVD Talk Hero
Originally Posted by rennervision
How did snakes survive thousands of years buried inside the lost city of Tanis?
#75
DVD Talk Special Edition
Originally Posted by jeffkjoe
OK.
Here's what's been eating at my core since watching RAIDERS OF THE LOST ARK:
What the hell does Marion eat in Belloq's tent?
Here's what's been eating at my core since watching RAIDERS OF THE LOST ARK:
What the hell does Marion eat in Belloq's tent?




