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Re: The Hobbit
Originally Posted by Jay G.
(Post 11204640)
It's all relative. I meant "minor" in the sense that it's not likely to make the evening news on the national networks, or probably even on "Extra". It's major news within the cinephile community maybe.
Note that I don't mean to belittle the issue: it's definitely of interest to me. Yeah. The internet is a very vocal minority of people that overanalyze everything. Most "casual" people like myself won't notice a thing different about it at all. Its really only forums like this full of cinephiles that will notice it and complain. |
Re: The Hobbit
Originally Posted by Jay G.
(Post 11204628)
Of all the problems I had with the Star Wars prequels, the tech they were shot with were the least of my objections. I wish the shooting tech was the most troublesome aspect of those films.
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Re: The Hobbit
This will also be released in a standard 24fps version.
Either way this news from the footage screening is a bit disconcerting. :sad: |
Re: The Hobbit
Originally Posted by Osiris3657
(Post 11204428)
Watch this and now picture Gandalf and Frodo in a scene like this. That's what it'll look like in 48fps.
<iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/gL5oX2Of9Ls" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe> Fortunately from what I've been reading most theaters will not have the equipment to show the film at 48fps. |
Re: The Hobbit
Originally Posted by kgrogers1979
(Post 11204642)
Yeah. The internet is a very vocal minority of people that overanalyze everything. Most "casual" people like myself won't notice a thing different about it at all.
Originally Posted by Artman
(Post 11204644)
You're right they didn't work on paper either. But I'm talking about the "feeling" of a film. I would propose the majority of original SW fans would've preferred to see the same scripts (flawed as they are) delivered as if they were made right after Jedi.
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Re: The Hobbit
Although the higher framerate wont bother me one bit, it can be jarring when you first see it.
Try watching any given episode of The Shield. In that show the framerate would flip-flop randomly from shot to shot in scenes shot on 24 frames and at 60 Hz. It's really jarring when it happens at first, and never stops being noticeable. However, watching a whole movie like that wouldn't be a big deal as long as it's consitant. |
Re: The Hobbit
Originally Posted by RocShemp
(Post 11204846)
Although the higher framerate wont bother me one bit, it can be jarring when you first see it.
Try watching any given episode of The Shield. In that show the framerate would flip-flop randomly from shot to shot in scenes shot on 24 frames and at 60 Hz. It's really jarring when it happens at first, and never stops being noticeable. However, watching a whole movie like that wouldn't be a big deal as long as it's consitant. |
Re: The Hobbit
This will be a non-issue with the general public. People like interpolation. We all know people who bought a new TV and love how it looks with it on.
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Re: The Hobbit
Yeah fiancée's folks bought a new 60" TV and don't see a difference. The fiancée noticed it from the get-go and stated it looked like a soap opera.
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Re: The Hobbit
Originally Posted by RocShemp
(Post 11204846)
Although the higher framerate wont bother me one bit, it can be jarring when you first see it.
Try watching any given episode of The Shield. In that show the framerate would flip-flop randomly from shot to shot in scenes shot on 24 frames and at 60 Hz. It's really jarring when it happens at first, and never stops being noticeable. However, watching a whole movie like that wouldn't be a big deal as long as it's consitant. |
Re: The Hobbit
I just want to thank Jay G. for the lengthy explanation. He explains it well, I think. Over the years, I've come to understand and, for better or worse, am very sensitive to detecting different frame rates. The display TVs at Best Buy with their 120Hz or 240Hz refresh rates (and motion "fixing" turned on, of course) are jarring to me. Not because my mind doesn't like more frames (and less flicker!), but because the motion itself is unnatural. If those displays could play back footage that was filmed at 120fps or 240fps, they'd be beautiful, I'm sure. But TVs just aren't good at creating all of those extra frames from 24fps source material yet. Think about it... if every major motion picture is filmed at 24fps... and those TVs are set to create "smooth" motion at 240Hz... that means 1 out of every 10 frames displayed is actually from the source material. The other 9 are "estimated" by the TV. That's why it looks so unnatural.
Anyway, my thoughts on The Hobbit are mixed at this point. While I love the idea of toying with new possibilities like 48fps, I agree that it's very risky to do it with such a major project. If it can properly be displayed at 48fps (without any sort of weird post-processing), I'm pretty confident that I'll be impressed. But for the remaining 99.9% of theatres that can't properly project 48fps, then that means there's a version of the film that has 50% of the frames removed. I can't believe that that will look anything but horrible. If the source material is 48fps, and they cut out half of those frames to project it at 24fps... even with some heavy post-processing (ie: blurring) to improve the sense of motion, I personally don't think there's any way for it to be seamless. It'll be jarring but in a completely opposite fashion to 240Hz TVs with frame estimation. I'm no expert by any means, but based on what we know so far, I'm worried that The Hobbit is going to look like crap in my local theatres. |
Re: The Hobbit
Originally Posted by SomethingMore
(Post 11205037)
I'm no expert by any means, but based on what we know so far, I'm worried that The Hobbit is going to look like crap in my local theatres.
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Re: The Hobbit
Originally Posted by Matthew Chmiel
(Post 11204611)
Here's a generalization of what most people were saying as they were walking out of Warner's presentation:
"The Dark Knight Rises looks awesome, but what the fuck happened to The Hobbit?" My brain is mush as I'm operating off four hours of sleep due to Paramount's late night screening of The Dictator last night, but yes, it looked like I was watching a BBC production in 3D. They've been holding most of their presentations this year at The Colosseum and if anything like the past few years, 4K projectors are always the norm. The studios bring in their own equipment as the setup changes from presentation-to-presentation. For example, there will be a laser projection demonstration occurring tomorrow morning. even in IMAX-Digital I thought the trailers for 'The Hobbit' left much to be desired - all the long shots looked fuzzy and indistinct |
Re: The Hobbit
Originally Posted by Giles
(Post 11205447)
even in IMAX-Digital I thought the trailers for 'The Hobbit' left much to be desired - all the long shots looked fuzzy and indistinct
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Re: The Hobbit
I haven't seen it, but I still must admit to some uneasiness. I was expecting to just look "richer", certainly not like the 120Hz TV mode. I want to trust Jackson, but I hope we're not getting into a Lucas type situation where nobody is brave enough to tell him he's messing something up.
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Re: The Hobbit
^ PJ seems more likely to listen than GL, but you never know. I will say that I didn't really find the 3D previews I've seen to be distracting or of poor quality, so maybe the moral is keep it from being shown in the format that makes it look like a soap opera.
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Re: The Hobbit
I was wondering why my in-laws TV looked so goofy, but didn't know how to describe it to anyone. Thanks for the info. I hope the movie does not look like their TV, it's too distracting.
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Re: The Hobbit
Originally Posted by kgrogers1979
(Post 11204642)
Yeah. The internet is a very vocal minority of people that overanalyze everything. Most "casual" people like myself won't notice a thing different about it at all. Its really only forums like this full of cinephiles that will notice it and complain.
But this is apparently something not everyone can see. Like the rainbow effects on DLP projectors. That doesn't mean there's anything wrong with your eyes, but it also doesn't mean that those of us who do see it are being difficult. |
Re: The Hobbit
I've seen The Shield a lot....but I only recall a little bit of weirdness outside. The brightness of the outdoor scenes was jarring at times, all the interiors were pretty normal. I assume they used 16 mm (24 fps) outside, video inside?
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Re: The Hobbit
Originally Posted by bluetoast
(Post 11206589)
I've seen The Shield a lot....but I only recall a little bit of weirdness outside. The brightness of the outdoor scenes was jarring at times, all the interiors were pretty normal. I assume they used 16 mm (24 fps) outside, video inside?
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Re: The Hobbit
Damn I'm surprised I didn't notice that, usually I catch stuff like that. What pissed me off is when they made the later releases 16:9 (and re-released the older ones in that format as well).
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Re: The Hobbit
Originally Posted by Giles
(Post 11205447)
even in IMAX-Digital I thought the trailers for 'The Hobbit' left much to be desired - all the long shots looked fuzzy and indistinct
Everything looked great during the ten-minute reel, except the fact it felt like I was watching the BBC on a gigantic screen in 3D. |
Re: The Hobbit
How the hell did you get in? I heard that only theater owners and people with press credentials saw it.
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Re: The Hobbit
Of all the press comments I've read, I found this one to be the most fair and even-handed review. I actually look forward to the 48 fps revolution!
http://www.aintitcool.com/node/55212 The instant this morning's Warner Bros presentation ended, the audience erupted in chatter. Almost everyone had just seen something that had never hit their eyes before. Forget 2D versus 3D, this is going to be a hell of a conversation come December (earlier, if they demo it). Filmmaking at 48 frames per second, whether 3D or not, is going to be massively divisive. For 80 years, we've been living with the 24fps standard, and people are used to the strobing and motion blur associated with it. It's that hard-to-describe look that we associate with a movie feeling like a movie. It’s a certain resolution and a certain number of still images hitting our eyes each second. Now that "Digital Cinema" is taking over, the next step beyond resolution (1080p, 2K, 4K, or 8K, or whatever else) is the frame rate frontier. It’s being breached as we speak. With such a focus on 3D, more frames in those films will mean less headaches and blur and so on. When I saw the HOBBIT trailer at 24fps in December at BNAT, there was something somewhat off. I felt it most directly in the bits that involved fast cutting and motion. My eyes had to do a lot of work to soak in everything they were seeing. Even after seeing it three times, I felt I’d missed things. 48fps makes those moments more fluid and clear, but there's something that people will absolutely hate about this upfront. It's different, first of all, but the big issue people walked out of the room this morning feeling is that the look of THE HOBBIT is not what they associate with filmic, or movie-like, or at all traditionally cinematic. The effect of watching 1970’s BBC television dramas as compared to US TV from the same era was mentioned by various people around me. In the opening minutes, I thought to myself "this looks like the TV department when they turn on 120Hz or TruMotion or whatever they call it". At once, it really doesn’t look like that. The smooth motion clarity is similar, but the 120Hz TV setting is the TV inventing visual information to fill in loads of completely nonexistent frames, creating the bullshit garbage you see walking through most TV departments in stores. Again, there is an element that 48fps and TruMotion share (which is where the comparison comes from), but 48 fps does not simply “look like Korean soap operas” or TruMotion-enhanced TV images. That’s a reductive, sensationalist, utterly bullshit equivocation. Despite that, loads of exhibitors and attendees echoed that exact thought all around me. The cinematic filter between the action and the audience is dissolved in favor of a more immediate lens on the world of the movie. The High Frame Rate Effect is something that will take getting used to, and some will absolutely reject it outright. Many will do so pre-emptively. It’s already happening all over Twitter. To be honest, it kind of terrified me at first. In his pre-recorded intro, Peter Jackson said that the reason we were seeing 10 minutes of content was that "it takes your eyes a little bit to adjust", and that is absolutely the case. The immersive experience was not immediate, but gradual. I felt much more comfortable toward the end of the presentation, but still disconcerted and outside a comfort zone. The most upfront benefit I felt was in landscape and action sequences, where surprisingly intricate detail was easily absorbed, even in a very, very wide shot. I was drawing in more visual information than my brain was used to processing. Motion blur was gone completely in fast-moving action scenes and dark environment. In general, 48fps has the ability to be at once crisp and smooth, subtle and bold. It is a maelstrom of contradictions when compared to the loads of filmed content I’ve seen in my life. Others started pronouncing it over immediately upon exiting, but I am not passing that judgment (or any for that matter) yet. I saw ten minutes of unfinished, un-graded, incomplete footage as a cross-section, not a full feature film. I have major reservations, but at the same time am beyond awed at many elements of what hit my visual cortex. Recalling the sweeping landscape shots they opened with now, I almost feel tears welling, and I can’t explain why. It was overwhelming in the most literal sense. It directly assaults your synapses with twice as much information through your retinas as you have become conditioned to expect from traditional cinema. I did not see the digital seams around creatures like Gollum and the trolls, a major benefit over 24fps. The creatures had a sense of mass in the environment, which was disconcerting in a good way. I started getting acclimated, and then it cut away again, and again, and again. The scene that really allowed me to relax and get used to it was the scene with Bilbo and Gollum in the cave, the longest segment they showed us. If there had been more contiguous sequences like that, cut together like a full scene (albeit with unfinished color grading and effects), I think the response might have been very different in that room today. The enemy of a radically new presentation like 48fps is the sizzle reel format of cutting. People needed to be given the benefit of their patience not being tried by rapid cutting back and forth from non-contiguous scenes. My call is that it was a less than ideal way to introduce something that, despite it all, managed to actually show promise in places. I just had three people in the press suite agree that they did in fact think the Bilbo/Gollum scene worked, no reservations. Those same people said that all the brief clips “felt” like the 1970 I, CLAUDIUS in HD. They agreed that if they’d seen two or three sequences of that length, they may have been less reflexively averse to it. The most bizarre thing is that I found Jeffrey Wells singing 48fps’ praises and guys like Alex Billington slamming it and setting it on fire. I think anyone making a definitive pronouncement (positive or negative) based on that presentation does not have enough proper representative data. I’m a presentation obsessive when it comes to aspect ratio, resolution, contrast, color grading, and all the nitty gritty. For my part, I’m still holding out. I don’t think I (or anyone) got the right representative look at it. Keep that in mind as you read what I’m sure will be loads of articles calling for 48fps’ pre-emptive death. At once, I am beset with wonder at what the Battle of Five Armies will look like in motion. I wonder at what Smaug will look like in motion. There is so much more to see before all of that, which I assume is going to be in the second movie anyway. Jackson mentioned something in his intro that I don’t think he was hedging with, about the frame rate of silent pictures being 16-18fps, and how going to 24fps was a big leap in the day. Think of the relative jump: from silent to sound, a few decades pass and they increase the number of frames by 50%…in this case, 80 years pass and they increase the frame rate to 150% more. This is a massive shift in visual clarity, composition, and perception. Like I said, if you thought 2D versus 3D has been fun, this is a quantum jump into another realm of perception, and I expect the debate to be exponentially more heated. There's so much more that's gone on too, but this is the biggest industry-wide thing that's gone down since I've been here. |
Re: The Hobbit
Good article. I think on point it makes that hasn't really been touched yet was this line:
With such a focus on 3D, more frames in those films will mean less headaches and blur and so on. |
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