The Golden Compass
11-15-07, 10:37 AM
#102
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Originally Posted by Jay G.
If you had taken the time to understand what I wrote, you wouldn't think I was repeating you. Just because some Christian parents may find that something isn't appropriate for their family doesn't mean that the film isn't "family friendly."
Your emphasis on the word "Christian" elegantly points out what's wrong with the "warning" message: It's not about whether this film is "family friendly" at all, but whether it's offensive to some extremely sensitive Christians.
Determining whether something is appropriate for their particular is the duty of the parents. However, determining whether something is deserving of the secular term "family friendly" is up to society at large, typically via some ratings board like the MPAA. There is nothing in the film that's offensive to families in general.
Your emphasis on the word "Christian" elegantly points out what's wrong with the "warning" message: It's not about whether this film is "family friendly" at all, but whether it's offensive to some extremely sensitive Christians.
Determining whether something is appropriate for their particular is the duty of the parents. However, determining whether something is deserving of the secular term "family friendly" is up to society at large, typically via some ratings board like the MPAA. There is nothing in the film that's offensive to families in general.
Family friendly is a subjective term, and nothing society at large does will change that.
Originally Posted by Jay G.
Of course you do. My point that your criticism of the film not being "objective" in its presentation of a particular belief wasn't valid, since that occurs all the time in regards to Christian beliefs, so its unfair to single out the film just because the belief in this case is atheism.
Perhaps you are upset because Christians are singling out Pullman's film at this time, but I think that is an unfair criticism. People tend to be more vocal when something is of concern to them. It isn't really their responsibility to voice the concerns of others.
Originally Posted by Jay G.
People "abrogate," their responsibilities all the time. Many parents use the MPAA ratings to help them decide what their family should see, instead of seeing it themselves first. The original email was asking parents to abrogate their responsibilities, defer to the email author's judgment that the film wasn't "a film you want your children to see," and straight out boycott it. The email was doing exactly what you're criticizing me for: making the parents' decision for them.
The original email didn't coerce anyone to do anything. It only provided information and offered a (too strongly worded) suggestion. If someone blindly followed that suggestion without doing further research, then I would agree with you. But that is not what I am suggesting. I am suggesting that the email may have made people aware of a situation they were previously unaware of, giving them the opportunity to look deeper and decide for themselves.
[Disclaimer: My use of example such as explicit pornographic sex acts and crystal meth use in no way implies that I equate those actions with atheism. I merely used extreme example to illustrate various points in my comments.]
Last edited by RoboDad; 11-15-07 at 10:46 AM.
11-15-07, 02:11 PM
#103
DVD Talk Limited Edition
I'm still not sure how any rational person would accept a definition of "Family Friendly" that assumes that Family Friendly only encompasses their own specific religious beliefs.
I wouldn't have had any issue with the original email if it had said that the movie does not embrace traditional Christian beliefs.
If there is nothing anti-family in this movie, how is it not "family friendly"?
I wouldn't have had any issue with the original email if it had said that the movie does not embrace traditional Christian beliefs.
If there is nothing anti-family in this movie, how is it not "family friendly"?
11-15-07, 02:22 PM
#104
Moderator
Originally Posted by Peep
If there is nothing anti-family in this movie, how is it not "family friendly"?
11-15-07, 02:42 PM
#105
DVD Talk Reviewer Emeritus
Originally Posted by Groucho
What's funny is that the people leading this boycott are the same ones who were first in line to take their young children to see The Passion of the Christ.
11-15-07, 03:46 PM
#106
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Originally Posted by Peep
I'm still not sure how any rational person would accept a definition of "Family Friendly" that assumes that Family Friendly only encompasses their own specific religious beliefs.
As far as I am aware, there are many different religious and secular beliefs beyond Christianity and atheism. Do movies such as The Lion King, Beauty and the Beast, Mulan, Toy Story, The Incredibles, or Ratatouille only encompass Christian beliefs? Not as far as I can tell. But as far as I know, there have been no concerns raised for any of those films, all of which are family friendly.
If you want to insist upon having a universal definition of family friendly, then pick one that everyone can agree on. Don't pick one that just fits your world view, and then demand that everyone else accept it or be labeled irrational.
11-15-07, 04:41 PM
#107
DVD Talk Hero
Originally Posted by RoboDad
As far as I am aware, there are many different religious and secular beliefs beyond Christianity and atheism. Do movies such as The Lion King, Beauty and the Beast, Mulan, Toy Story, The Incredibles, or Ratatouille only encompass Christian beliefs? Not as far as I can tell. But as far as I know, there have been no concerns raised for any of those films, all of which are family friendly.
Point being, in this case a Christian group is saying a movie is not family friendly because of an "atheism/organized religion is bad" perspective. Not that the movie isn't CHRISTIAN-friendly, which is fairly accurate.
They are saying that atheism = bad for kids (which, let's face it, is what "family friendly" means). That's the problem.
11-15-07, 09:31 PM
#108
DVD Talk Legend
Originally Posted by RoboDad
Family friendly is a subjective term, and nothing society at large does will change that.
To use your ludicrous "explicit sex" example, if society at large was accepting of it being in "family friendly" films, then no matter how you personally find it offensive, saying that the film is not acceptable to families in general would be incorrect, because families in general are accepting of it.
For example, I may personally find horribly bland and unoriginal scripts unworthy of viewing by my family, but that doesn't mean I'd claim that the film wasn't "family friendly."
[quote[The only reason this film is being "singled out" is because it is currently being marketed. It does not make much sense to bring Narnia into the discussion, since it has already been discussed, at the time of its release. And there were plenty of people at that time who were concerned over that film and its overtly Christian messages.[/quote]
Did any of them claim it wasn't "family friendly"?
Perhaps you are upset because Christians are singling out Pullman's film at this time....
[quote]One must not participate in an activity in order to determine its value. People rely on information all the time to help make their own decisions, and that in on way abrogates any responsibility. [quote]
You're right that relying on information provided by others in one way abrogates some responsibility. You're also correct that "if we didn't [abrogate some responsibility] there would be very little progress in the world."
As you point out when you defer to other people's judgment: " I don't need to become a crystal meth user to know that it is a bad idea. I can rely on the information provided by others to help make that decision."
The original email didn't coerce anyone to do anything.
If someone blindly followed that suggestion without doing further research, then I would agree with you.
I am suggesting that the email may have made people aware of a situation they were previously unaware of, giving them the opportunity to look deeper and decide for themselves.
11-15-07, 09:32 PM
#109
DVD Talk Legend
Originally Posted by RoboDad
If you want to insist upon having a universal definition of family friendly, then pick one that everyone can agree on. Don't pick one that just fits your world view
11-27-07, 12:24 PM
#110
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I suspect no one's going to see this film.
I'm not merely an atheist - I'm an anti-theist - and this film, as reportedly shot, holds zero interest for me. It will be nothing more than a fantasy tale festooned with the usual bland blandishments, and utterly stripped of Pullman's themes. The filmmakers have conceded as much.
Oh how I wish this film were of the sort that the Catholic League and other usual suspects might correctly find to be utterly and intractibly opposed to their agendas. But sadly it is not. As noted in the Atlantic article I presume has been discussed in this thread, what we'll get instead is as follows:
I'm not merely an atheist - I'm an anti-theist - and this film, as reportedly shot, holds zero interest for me. It will be nothing more than a fantasy tale festooned with the usual bland blandishments, and utterly stripped of Pullman's themes. The filmmakers have conceded as much.
Oh how I wish this film were of the sort that the Catholic League and other usual suspects might correctly find to be utterly and intractibly opposed to their agendas. But sadly it is not. As noted in the Atlantic article I presume has been discussed in this thread, what we'll get instead is as follows:
What’s left of Pullman’s story is a string of disconnected proclamations that obscure not just his original point, but any point at all: “Master Dust!” “Freedom is at stake!” “We’re not alone. We’re never alone! We have each other.” They satisfy, but they don’t really explain. Or perhaps they offer explanations so familiar and straightforward that they don’t invite questions.
This is Hollywood at its most hazily indignant and self-congratulatory, recycling the generic theme of Victory, One Flew Over the Cuckoo’s Nest, Dead Poets Society, and countless other films—a band of grubby, half-crazed heroes takes on the System and wins. When I talked to Weitz in August, he expected that he would still be tinkering with the opening voice-over until just before the release, but the general direction was already set. New Line’s publicity materials describe it this way: “One child stands between the end of free will and the beginning of a new age. Lyra Belacqua … is only 12, but even she knows that doing what you’re told versus doing what you feel is right can yield very different outcomes.” The message is nominally loyal to Pullman, but it also fetishizes the power of childlike innocence—which is one of his greatest complaints about religion.
Weitz told me he tried to keep in a line where Asriel says, “Dust is sin,” but “that didn’t make it. What can I say?” Hollywood “is just terrified that anything that brings up religion or anything controversial will be disastrous.”
This is Hollywood at its most hazily indignant and self-congratulatory, recycling the generic theme of Victory, One Flew Over the Cuckoo’s Nest, Dead Poets Society, and countless other films—a band of grubby, half-crazed heroes takes on the System and wins. When I talked to Weitz in August, he expected that he would still be tinkering with the opening voice-over until just before the release, but the general direction was already set. New Line’s publicity materials describe it this way: “One child stands between the end of free will and the beginning of a new age. Lyra Belacqua … is only 12, but even she knows that doing what you’re told versus doing what you feel is right can yield very different outcomes.” The message is nominally loyal to Pullman, but it also fetishizes the power of childlike innocence—which is one of his greatest complaints about religion.
Weitz told me he tried to keep in a line where Asriel says, “Dust is sin,” but “that didn’t make it. What can I say?” Hollywood “is just terrified that anything that brings up religion or anything controversial will be disastrous.”
Last edited by Richard Malloy; 11-27-07 at 12:26 PM.
11-27-07, 05:23 PM
#112
DVD Talk Legend
I don't think they're saying the film should be outlawed, rather just criticizing it and encouraging others not to go. Happens all the time, or is everyone supposed to love and support everything that's out there?
Personally, after reading a bit more about it and seeing it's PG-13 I'm more interested in checking it out.
Personally, after reading a bit more about it and seeing it's PG-13 I'm more interested in checking it out.
11-27-07, 05:49 PM
#113
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Originally Posted by Brack
I don't know, Narnia wasn't that wonderful.
Except for the bad breath.
I've always found Lewis to be a mediocre write, at best. And that's not just looking back in hindsight. I first read Tolkien in junior high twenty years ago and was blown away. Imagine my delight at finding a good friend of his had also written a fantasy series! And then I read it, and realized it wasn't much better than the Dragonlance books the nose-picker next to me was reading. Seventh-grade me wasn't impressed with Lewis, and nothing has changed in the ensuing two decades.
Frankly, if it wasn't for the religious subtext I don't think many folks would even discuss Lewis today. IMO, his sales and legacy are propped up by people who won't let their kids read Harry Potter. Hell, JK Rowling is a better writer than CS Lewis, at least in her latter books. And even on her worst days I'd never call her vision or words bland, boring, and dull like I would Lewis'.
I haven't read Pullman's books, but I think my wife is getting me the trilogy for Christmas (how ironic) so shortly thereafter I'll be able to comment on whether or not he really did write the opposite of Narnia. I guess the opposite would be anti-religion and well written.
Last edited by Son-volt; 11-27-07 at 05:59 PM.
11-27-07, 06:02 PM
#114
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Originally Posted by murphy_wmm
Whenever I hear another conservative person claim that liberals want to censor freedom of speech, I'll be sure to bring up this movie and the book. LOL!
11-27-07, 06:18 PM
#115
Originally Posted by bhk
Ironically, it's the libs that run the studio that insisted it be edited.
11-28-07, 12:09 PM
#119
DVD Talk Hero
Originally Posted by boredsilly
This movie has polar bears in war armor fighting it out. Nothing can stop me from going to see a movie that features that.
Only sensible post in this entire thead.
11-28-07, 12:28 PM
#120
DVD Talk God
Originally Posted by Lastdaysofrain
That would be my problem is well. This implies that atheism is inherently not friendly to familes, which is a moronic statement.
Especially when atheism is only inherently not friendly to intellect.
Oh wait, that the mantra we generally hear the other way.
I didn't know about this controversy, or the boycott, and I find it pretty stupid. But I don't find it any more stupid than listening to people in the Narnia threads acto indignant over "Christian" themes, which I thought were so muted that I would not have noticed. I could see being indignant over the fact that it was a pretty poor movie, however.
I don't know, this just seems like more of the complaining about the rallying of the Christians over stupid things which is really no different than the rallying of the Atheists over stupid things, in my book.
11-28-07, 12:58 PM
#121
Calling his "Dark Materials" atheistic is ridiculous. It actually EXPLICITLY acknowledges that God exists. What it does do is reject organized religious dogma and the view of heaven. In the books, heaven is really a hell. But the viewpoint is pro-actively anti religion, NOT atheistic or agnostic.
11-28-07, 01:04 PM
#122
DVD Talk God
Ah, but just imagine how differently we would react if instead of having that, he had a traditional Judeo-Christian view of God. Man, we wouldn't hear a word from anyone. It would just be peace and harmony.
The whole thing on both sides is beyond stupid, imo.
The whole thing on both sides is beyond stupid, imo.
11-28-07, 01:19 PM
#123
DVD Talk Gold Edition
Although I don't agree with Pullman's beliefs, I can respect his opinion and how it is metaphorically presented in his books. I see where the message can actually create a good deal of thoughtful discussion even among Christians.
With that being said, I'm uncomfortable with the way it is marketed to children. Children may process the information differently, and a subject like this challenging a belief taught in our home requires a certain maturity level higher than, say, your average fan of Lion King 1 1/2. I truly believe that is precisely what Pullman is counting on, no matter how much certain anti-conservatives want me to believe otherwise. Therefore, as a parent, I reserve the right to raise my child the way I see fit.
With that being said, I'm uncomfortable with the way it is marketed to children. Children may process the information differently, and a subject like this challenging a belief taught in our home requires a certain maturity level higher than, say, your average fan of Lion King 1 1/2. I truly believe that is precisely what Pullman is counting on, no matter how much certain anti-conservatives want me to believe otherwise. Therefore, as a parent, I reserve the right to raise my child the way I see fit.
11-28-07, 01:43 PM
#124
DVD Talk Hero
Originally Posted by rennervision
I'm uncomfortable with the way it is marketed to children. Children may process the information differently, and a subject like this challenging a belief taught in our home requires a certain maturity level higher than, say, your average fan of Lion King 1 1/2. I truly believe that is precisely what Pullman is counting on, no matter how much certain anti-conservatives want me to believe otherwise.
11-28-07, 02:11 PM
#125
DVD Talk Gold Edition
Originally Posted by rennervision
Although I don't agree with Pullman's beliefs, I can respect his opinion and how it is metaphorically presented in his books. I see where the message can actually create a good deal of thoughtful discussion even among Christians.
With that being said, I'm uncomfortable with the way it is marketed to children. Children may process the information differently, and a subject like this challenging a belief taught in our home requires a certain maturity level higher than, say, your average fan of Lion King 1 1/2. I truly believe that is precisely what Pullman is counting on, no matter how much certain anti-conservatives want me to believe otherwise. Therefore, as a parent, I reserve the right to raise my child the way I see fit.
With that being said, I'm uncomfortable with the way it is marketed to children. Children may process the information differently, and a subject like this challenging a belief taught in our home requires a certain maturity level higher than, say, your average fan of Lion King 1 1/2. I truly believe that is precisely what Pullman is counting on, no matter how much certain anti-conservatives want me to believe otherwise. Therefore, as a parent, I reserve the right to raise my child the way I see fit.