300 Reviews thread
#251
Suspended
Originally Posted by Randy Miller III
In other words, anyone who takes 300 as a serious history lesson deserves to have such a skewed opinion.
Last edited by baracine; 08-01-07 at 11:31 AM.
#252
DVD Talk Hall of Fame
Originally Posted by baracine
Try to imagine, if you will, an Iranian-financed film that would show in CGI-enhanced historical detail noble, shirtless and magnificently-endowed French-Canadians bullying disorganized, prissy, effeminate, bewigged and bespectacled pencil-necked Yankees out of their national capital and burning down the White House during the war of 1812 (which really happened, by the way). Wouldn't you call it "vicious, anti-American propaganda"?
Canada on a military offensive against America...Now that's funny stuff!
Watch out! Here come the Mounties! Oh no!
#253
Suspended
Originally Posted by clappj
Who would ever believe such unrealistic crap as that!?!?
Canada on a military offensive against America...Now that's funny stuff!
Watch out! Here come the Mounties! Oh no!
Canada on a military offensive against America...Now that's funny stuff!
Watch out! Here come the Mounties! Oh no!
Just in case you're serious and you've never heard of the War of 1812 (I know it's not featured prominently in American history books), here's some info:
At sea the powerful Royal Navy instituted a blockade of the majority of the American coastline (allowing some exports from New England, which was trading with Britain and Canada in defiance of American laws.) The blockade devastated American agricultural exports, but helped stimulate local factories that replaced goods previously imported. The American strategy of using small gunboats to defend ports was a fiasco, as the British raided the coast at will. The most famous episode was a series of British raids on the shores of the Chesapeake Bay. These raids included an attack on Washington D.C. that resulted in the burning of the White House, the Capitol, the navy yard and other public buildings. This was later called "Burning of Washington".
#254
DVD Talk Special Edition
Originally Posted by clappj
Who would ever believe such unrealistic crap as that!?!?
Canada on a military offensive against America...Now that's funny stuff!
Watch out! Here come the Mounties! Oh no!
Canada on a military offensive against America...Now that's funny stuff!
Watch out! Here come the Mounties! Oh no!
#255
DVD Talk Reviewer
Originally Posted by baracine
Try to imagine, if you will, an Iranian-financed film that would show in CGI-enhanced historical detail noble, shirtless and magnificently-endowed French-Canadians bullying disorganized, prissy, effeminate, bewigged and bespectacled pencil-necked Yankees out of their national capital and burning down the White House during the war of 1812 (which really happened, by the way). Wouldn't you call it "vicious, anti-American propaganda"?
#256
Suspended
Originally Posted by Randy Miller III
Yes. I assume you're going to direct it?
#257
Challenge Guru & Comic Nerd
Originally Posted by baracine
Just in case you're serious and you've never heard of the War of 1812 (I know it's not featured prominently in American history books), here's some info:
#258
Suspended
Originally Posted by Trevor
You are not seriously suggesting that the US was ever even remotely at risk of losing the War of 1812, are you?
Here's what happened next:
By the terms of the treaty [of Ghent], all land captured by either side was returned to the previous owner; the Americans received fishing rights in the Gulf of St. Lawrence; and all outstanding debts and property taken was to be returned or paid for. Instead of returning captured slaves, large numbers of which had been recruited as free men into the British services, the British paid cash for them.
Consequences
This was a war in which nothing changed, no territory was lost nor gained by either side. None of the points of contention were addressed by the Treaty of Ghent, yet it was a war that changed much between the United States of America and Great Britain. Never again would the U.S. think that it could always beat Great Britain nor did Great Britain ever again fail to treat the U.S. as a national power in its own right. The Treaty of Ghent established the status quo ante bellum; that is, there were no territorial changes made by either side. The issue of impressing American seamen was made moot when the Royal Navy stopped impressment after the defeat of Napoleon. The United States of America saw that further war with Great Britain was ruiniously expensive to its young economy, while Great Britain realised that another contest with the United States of America would probably cost her Canada.
Consequences
This was a war in which nothing changed, no territory was lost nor gained by either side. None of the points of contention were addressed by the Treaty of Ghent, yet it was a war that changed much between the United States of America and Great Britain. Never again would the U.S. think that it could always beat Great Britain nor did Great Britain ever again fail to treat the U.S. as a national power in its own right. The Treaty of Ghent established the status quo ante bellum; that is, there were no territorial changes made by either side. The issue of impressing American seamen was made moot when the Royal Navy stopped impressment after the defeat of Napoleon. The United States of America saw that further war with Great Britain was ruiniously expensive to its young economy, while Great Britain realised that another contest with the United States of America would probably cost her Canada.
Last edited by baracine; 08-02-07 at 06:34 AM.
#259
DVD Talk Gold Edition
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Portland, OR
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Originally Posted by clappj
Who would ever believe such unrealistic crap as that!?!?
Canada on a military offensive against America...Now that's funny stuff!
Watch out! Here come the Mounties! Oh no!
Canada on a military offensive against America...Now that's funny stuff!
Watch out! Here come the Mounties! Oh no!
That's great!
#260
Suspended
Iranian outrage:
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Greek outrage:
<object width="425" height="350"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/l64EyjW8jRY"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/l64EyjW8jRY" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="350"></embed></object>
<object width="425" height="350"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/rcuudK3SPJE"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/rcuudK3SPJE" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="350"></embed></object>
Greek outrage:
<object width="425" height="350"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/l64EyjW8jRY"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/l64EyjW8jRY" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="350"></embed></object>
Last edited by baracine; 08-01-07 at 02:54 PM.
#261
DVD Talk Limited Edition
If you remove the reference to the Persians actually being from Persia and place it in fantasy land, isn't it just as easy to interpret the Persians with their wildly decadent lifestyles, mixed culture, and homosexualness (from the original article) looking to force their will on other lands as the Americans?
Just as the Spartans in the movie want the Persians out of their land, many Persians want the US out of their land today.
You know..just saying.
Just as the Spartans in the movie want the Persians out of their land, many Persians want the US out of their land today.
You know..just saying.
#262
DVD Talk Limited Edition
It's a movie dude. A very entertaining movie that is BASED on fact, but doesn't stay true to the actual facts.
Look up the real history of Remember the Titans.
I think that Remember the Titans is a very entertaining movie, but the movie got almost every single fact wrong.
One thing the movie got wrong was that TC Williams was not the first integrated school in the area...most of the other schools around we integrated before TC Williams. The players have admitted that there really wasn't much racial tension during tryouts. Most of the kids were more interested in making the team than the color of each other's skin. There were few, if any racial incidents during the first day of school either. There are countless other things that the movie got wrong.
Here's a link that talks about all the historically inaccurate things in the movie.
http://www.chasingthefrog.com/reelfa...rthetitans.php
Many movies do this. Do you think everything in Braveheart was true? Of course not, but some of the more boring parts were changed to make it more entertaining even though the story is BASED on fact.
Remember the Titans changed many of the facts to make a MORE ENTERTAINING MOVIE. The story was true but if the true story was told it would have been boring, so in the name of entertainment certain liberties were taken. Why was there no backlash against Remember the Titans for changing the events to make it look like all the white people in that area were bigots?
300 was not made to be historically accurate. Of course the Persians weren't monsters and they didn't have elephants in their army and obviously Xerxes wasn't 9 feet tall. It was a movie based on a comic book for Christs sakes. That's like complaining that Superman isn't realistic because real people can't fly. Well, in the comic book Superman can fly. The story was changed to make it look cool. Get over yourself, lighten up and learn to have a little fun now and then.
Look up the real history of Remember the Titans.
I think that Remember the Titans is a very entertaining movie, but the movie got almost every single fact wrong.
One thing the movie got wrong was that TC Williams was not the first integrated school in the area...most of the other schools around we integrated before TC Williams. The players have admitted that there really wasn't much racial tension during tryouts. Most of the kids were more interested in making the team than the color of each other's skin. There were few, if any racial incidents during the first day of school either. There are countless other things that the movie got wrong.
Here's a link that talks about all the historically inaccurate things in the movie.
http://www.chasingthefrog.com/reelfa...rthetitans.php
Many movies do this. Do you think everything in Braveheart was true? Of course not, but some of the more boring parts were changed to make it more entertaining even though the story is BASED on fact.
Remember the Titans changed many of the facts to make a MORE ENTERTAINING MOVIE. The story was true but if the true story was told it would have been boring, so in the name of entertainment certain liberties were taken. Why was there no backlash against Remember the Titans for changing the events to make it look like all the white people in that area were bigots?
300 was not made to be historically accurate. Of course the Persians weren't monsters and they didn't have elephants in their army and obviously Xerxes wasn't 9 feet tall. It was a movie based on a comic book for Christs sakes. That's like complaining that Superman isn't realistic because real people can't fly. Well, in the comic book Superman can fly. The story was changed to make it look cool. Get over yourself, lighten up and learn to have a little fun now and then.
Last edited by whoopdido; 08-01-07 at 11:12 PM.
#263
Suspended
In this case, a bunch of irresponsible, post-literate juveniles who have read too many comicbooks and played too many video games got together to adapt a graphic novel to the screen that told a story (badly) that has been held dear by all Greeks and all Iranians for 2,500 years and made a complete mess of things, mistaking poetic licence with a WWE "script". They made a pornographically violent film in which the "villains" are three times as bad and dehumanized as they needed to be, thinking they were telling the story to morons, as usual, and forgetting that the US are on the verge of committing an even bigger blunder than the Iraq war by declaring war on Iran.
As if that was not enough, they threw in every film clichι they could stuff in this opus, from the slo-mo of The Matrix to the Celtic-sounding banshee music of James Horner, to the blood-letting of Kill Bill to battle scenes that are directly lifted from Excalibur to a subplot of forced intercourse reminiscent of an afternoon soap-opera to flashbacks that are borrowed from Gladiator to a passing nudge to LOTR and all at the service of a storyline that would make a Nazi blush for its gross racism and downright idiocy.
Yeah, maybe I should learn to relax now and then, but not at the movies. I think I'll read a book instead, if you don't mind.
As if that was not enough, they threw in every film clichι they could stuff in this opus, from the slo-mo of The Matrix to the Celtic-sounding banshee music of James Horner, to the blood-letting of Kill Bill to battle scenes that are directly lifted from Excalibur to a subplot of forced intercourse reminiscent of an afternoon soap-opera to flashbacks that are borrowed from Gladiator to a passing nudge to LOTR and all at the service of a storyline that would make a Nazi blush for its gross racism and downright idiocy.
Yeah, maybe I should learn to relax now and then, but not at the movies. I think I'll read a book instead, if you don't mind.
Last edited by baracine; 08-02-07 at 06:35 AM.
#264
DVD Talk Legend
Originally Posted by baracine
Yeah, maybe I should learn to relax now and then, but not at the movies.
Enjoy that heart attack!
#267
Suspended
Originally Posted by whoopdido
It was a movie based on a comic book for Christs sakes. That's like complaining that Superman isn't realistic because real people can't fly. Well, in the comic book Superman can fly. The story was changed to make it look cool. Get over yourself, lighten up and learn to have a little fun now and then.
1 out of 2 people found the following comment useful :-
You wanted low-brow? You GOT low-brow!, 29 November 2006
Author: Benoξt A. Racine from Toronto, Ontario, Canada
I remember thinking when "Superman" (1978) came out, that American culture had reached a new low by celebrating the film version of a comic book, no matter how iconic it seemed at the time. I mean, what can you say about a culture that is so illiterate that it can't even read comic books and needs to have them translated as moving pictures?!
This new installment of the Superman franchise is just more of the same - albeit with better CGI and a raised quota of sadistic violence. I'm not saying it is unpleasant to watch for what it is, but many things about it stick in my craw:
(1) The jumbled action scenes. I call it the James Cameron Action Movie Rule of Deficient Exposition. At no point during any action scene is the spectator able to know or understand what he/she is looking at unless he/she is seeing the movie for the second time.
(2) The simplistic characters. They found an actor whose only qualification is to be a Christopher Reeve clone. He is lit and photographed at all times like a wax statuette in a curio cabinet. As Clark Kent, he never utters complete sentences. As Superman, he is a monosyllabic bore. The Lois Lane character is played solely for her afternoon soap-opera and hormonal (cough! pre-menstrual) qualities. The rest of the characters are a collection of clichιed non-entities and unidimensional, uncomprehending retards.
(3) The hypocrisy of the cultural references. The script-writer can never stoop low enough to condescend to his intended lowest-common-denominator audience. The snooty hostess on the space shuttle flight has to have a British accent, of course, even though she works for NASA. On a par with antisocial behaviour like pleasuring an elderly woman, classical - a.k.a. "high-brow" - music is associated with the decadent and evil Lex Luthor (he listens to Sunday morning chestnuts like the Four Seasons by Vivaldi, the duo from "Lakmι" and the Habanera from "Carmen" - what a low-life!), even though the John Ottman/John Williams score to this nearly-silent film, whose best lines can be heard in the DVD outtakes, is as complex and classical as any ballet by Chostakovitch.
(4) Superman's inability to tackle the real problems that plague our world, like political and corporate greed, pollution and religious intolerance.
But these elements have now become as commonplace in North-American culture as the central place comic books occupy in the national psyche. I guess you only get what you pay for...
You wanted low-brow? You GOT low-brow!, 29 November 2006
Author: Benoξt A. Racine from Toronto, Ontario, Canada
I remember thinking when "Superman" (1978) came out, that American culture had reached a new low by celebrating the film version of a comic book, no matter how iconic it seemed at the time. I mean, what can you say about a culture that is so illiterate that it can't even read comic books and needs to have them translated as moving pictures?!
This new installment of the Superman franchise is just more of the same - albeit with better CGI and a raised quota of sadistic violence. I'm not saying it is unpleasant to watch for what it is, but many things about it stick in my craw:
(1) The jumbled action scenes. I call it the James Cameron Action Movie Rule of Deficient Exposition. At no point during any action scene is the spectator able to know or understand what he/she is looking at unless he/she is seeing the movie for the second time.
(2) The simplistic characters. They found an actor whose only qualification is to be a Christopher Reeve clone. He is lit and photographed at all times like a wax statuette in a curio cabinet. As Clark Kent, he never utters complete sentences. As Superman, he is a monosyllabic bore. The Lois Lane character is played solely for her afternoon soap-opera and hormonal (cough! pre-menstrual) qualities. The rest of the characters are a collection of clichιed non-entities and unidimensional, uncomprehending retards.
(3) The hypocrisy of the cultural references. The script-writer can never stoop low enough to condescend to his intended lowest-common-denominator audience. The snooty hostess on the space shuttle flight has to have a British accent, of course, even though she works for NASA. On a par with antisocial behaviour like pleasuring an elderly woman, classical - a.k.a. "high-brow" - music is associated with the decadent and evil Lex Luthor (he listens to Sunday morning chestnuts like the Four Seasons by Vivaldi, the duo from "Lakmι" and the Habanera from "Carmen" - what a low-life!), even though the John Ottman/John Williams score to this nearly-silent film, whose best lines can be heard in the DVD outtakes, is as complex and classical as any ballet by Chostakovitch.
(4) Superman's inability to tackle the real problems that plague our world, like political and corporate greed, pollution and religious intolerance.
But these elements have now become as commonplace in North-American culture as the central place comic books occupy in the national psyche. I guess you only get what you pay for...
#268
DVD Talk Hero
One way argue much?
God forbid people have opinions or different tastes.
In terms of 300, yes, it's very offensive to certain races. It is a totally one-sided movie that shows a particular group as being borderline inhuman. This happens every couple of years, if not every year, and I understand the so called "outrage". But who actually reads into this stuff? I can't think of a single person who walked into this movie and left with a hate or disgust toward Persians or any other group represented. Hell, if anything, we should be hating on deformed individuals.
As for your comic book adapatation, well, that was just an asinine initial comment. With that mindset, why do you even bother watching movies without an original script? But I suppose I would argue silly things too if I had a similar, overwelming sense of self-superiority.
------------------
Anyway, back to 300. Saw it again the other day and have to say the voice over narraration still annoys the hell out of me. Anytime the movie becomes somewhat immersive, the voice over kicks in and pulls me right out again. Still, it is fairly entertaining, and I'm a few steps closer to finishing a script where every sentence ends in "!".
God forbid people have opinions or different tastes.
In terms of 300, yes, it's very offensive to certain races. It is a totally one-sided movie that shows a particular group as being borderline inhuman. This happens every couple of years, if not every year, and I understand the so called "outrage". But who actually reads into this stuff? I can't think of a single person who walked into this movie and left with a hate or disgust toward Persians or any other group represented. Hell, if anything, we should be hating on deformed individuals.
As for your comic book adapatation, well, that was just an asinine initial comment. With that mindset, why do you even bother watching movies without an original script? But I suppose I would argue silly things too if I had a similar, overwelming sense of self-superiority.
------------------
Anyway, back to 300. Saw it again the other day and have to say the voice over narraration still annoys the hell out of me. Anytime the movie becomes somewhat immersive, the voice over kicks in and pulls me right out again. Still, it is fairly entertaining, and I'm a few steps closer to finishing a script where every sentence ends in "!".
Last edited by RichC2; 08-02-07 at 08:49 AM.
#269
I give the movie a couple points for style, but that only takes you so far. This is NOT a graphic novel or history lesson, its a movie. The storytelling was lost in the imagery and weak dialog. The pacing was horrible, the movie came to a halt whenever anyone opened their mouth. The battle scenes were so poorly choreographed that it looked more like dancing than fighting.
The distracting elements such as the debris in air that only fell in front of the characters, kept pulling me out movie. Normally this would be a small thing except it happened through out the movie and because the snowflakes/chaff/dirt/blood were huge and only in front. Anything that pulls me out of the movie is bad, justifiable or not. It breaks the bond of immersion, that is crucial to my enjoyment.
Being based on a graphic novel certainly doesn't excuse it from being held to the standard of a good movie. A standard of which this movie falls far short.
The distracting elements such as the debris in air that only fell in front of the characters, kept pulling me out movie. Normally this would be a small thing except it happened through out the movie and because the snowflakes/chaff/dirt/blood were huge and only in front. Anything that pulls me out of the movie is bad, justifiable or not. It breaks the bond of immersion, that is crucial to my enjoyment.
Being based on a graphic novel certainly doesn't excuse it from being held to the standard of a good movie. A standard of which this movie falls far short.
Last edited by Ayre; 08-02-07 at 08:50 AM.
#270
DVD Talk Limited Edition
Originally Posted by baracine
Oh, boy! I think you'll just love my IMDb comment on Superman Returns:
Dude, I think you need a girlfriend or a hobby or something to take your mind off of all the injustices of Hollywood.
Trust me...it's not as bad as you think.
#271
DVD Talk Hero
Heh, it has nothing to do with Hollywood, he just has a general superiority complex to those living south of the Canadian border. Though I guess I could be misinterpreting that as continental self-loathing, Canada resides in America as well, afterall.
#272
Suspended
Originally Posted by whoopdido
Seriously what is your deal? How can you possibly read so much into movies? I mean you mentioned reading books so when you read Lord of the Rings do you get offended that Orcs are portrayed as bloodthristy villians or that Hobbits are portrayed as lazy?
One major difference with LOTR, as fantasies go, is that LOTR had very few intra-species killings, the original sin of Gollum killing his brother and the spontaneous Orc brawls being two notable exceptions. Most battles showed Men, Elves, Dwarves and Hobbits against Orcs, Wraiths, Beasts, Trolls and assorted hybrids who were presented as the embodiment of absolute evil on earth.
In 300, the enemy Persians (real human beings, last time I checked) are dehumanized and made into beasts and monsters and their leader's evil nature is encapsulated in his being effeminate (i.e. gay). This is putting fantasy, mythology, bargain-basement psychology and "history" at the service of hate propaganda and is very reminiscent of Nazi films directed against the "animal" nature of Jews.
Is this just a case of not having seen enough mindless US summer blockbusters or a case of having seen too many?
In 300, the enemy Persians (real human beings, last time I checked) are dehumanized and made into beasts and monsters and their leader's evil nature is encapsulated in his being effeminate (i.e. gay). This is putting fantasy, mythology, bargain-basement psychology and "history" at the service of hate propaganda and is very reminiscent of Nazi films directed against the "animal" nature of Jews.
Is this just a case of not having seen enough mindless US summer blockbusters or a case of having seen too many?
Originally Posted by whoopdido
That's like complaining that Superman isn't realistic because real people can't fly. Well, in the comic book Superman can fly. The story was changed to make it look cool.
Last edited by baracine; 08-02-07 at 09:49 AM.
#273
DVD Talk Limited Edition
Originally Posted by baracine
I just love quoting myself (from last page):
Superman's story was not changed. It was always like that. It was written directly for comics. Superman didn't exist until a comicbook writer invented him, with his long underwear, his cape and his ability to fly. The Battle of Thermopylae, on the other hand, is an historical (i.e. real) event that has great importance and significance for a great part of the people on this planet, not just American comicbook readers. Do you see the difference?
Superman's story was not changed. It was always like that. It was written directly for comics. Superman didn't exist until a comicbook writer invented him, with his long underwear, his cape and his ability to fly. The Battle of Thermopylae, on the other hand, is an historical (i.e. real) event that has great importance and significance for a great part of the people on this planet, not just American comicbook readers. Do you see the difference?
If you don't like the movie that's fine. You're perfectly entitled to your opinion. I'll admit that it wasn't a great movie, but it was extremely entertaining. Don't rip on the people that made the movie because you don't like how the Persians were portrayed. If you have a problem take it up with Frank Miller. Frank Miller came up with the idea to portray Persians in that exaggerated way.
A few things were changed from the graphic novel to, again, make it more interesting and entertaining, but Frank Miller was very much involved in this project so it's not like he had a certain vision and then the movie makers totally destroyed that vision. Believe me Miller's graphic novel did not portray the Persians much differently than the movie did. Like I said, if you're over-sensitive and have a problem with the portrayal of Persians take it up with Frank Miller.
But my question is what's the point of getting riled up. The movie has already been made, released into theaters and released on dvd. You can't make people unwatch it. It's been made and watched by millions of people. Quit crying about it because there's nothing you can do about it.
#274
Suspended
Originally Posted by whoopdido
You can't make people unwatch it.
I don't dislike Frank Miller. I actually admire his script for Robocop 2, which showed a social conscience and a fine satirical bent. I also admire the graphics and the over-the-top single-mindedness of the Sin City graphic novels, although they didn't translate well to the big screen, IMHO. And I didn't read his 300, although now I feel like I should in order to allocate the blame where I should. I even like the idea of telling the story of Thermopylae as a fireside folk-tale. Where the caca hits the fan, unfortunately, is when a film is made from this graphic novel and this private vision of his actually offends people around the globe for its lack of sensitivity.
There is actually a precedent for this kind of story in French literature. It's a XIXth Century novel by Gustave Flaubert called Salammbτ, an erotic historical fantasy (which was put on film at least twice so far) where a Carthagenian mercenary falls in love with a high priestess who is the daughter of his filching ex-employer, General Hamilcar. The violence is even worse than in 300 and reaches unbelievable fantasy levels while staying relatively well-documented. The mistake Flaubert didn't make of course is to use historical events that might fluster anyone on the planet at that time. Carthage is a civilization that time forgot, whereas the Persians and the Greeks are still very much with us and they really, really care about the way this story is told.
(French 1925 version)
(Italian 1960 version)
Last edited by baracine; 08-02-07 at 10:51 AM.
#275
DVD Talk Legend
Still my fav of the yr. A work of art visually imo, which for me as an artist is what I look for in films. I could understand how someone with a writing background would laugh at this one though... the characters and themes are pretty much one-dimensional (except the hunchback I'd argue).