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Old 10-23-06, 11:53 AM
  #51  
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Well in fairness to Nolan it's based on a novel so I'm guessing at least some ofthe twists come from the source material.
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Old 10-23-06, 12:19 PM
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Originally Posted by lukewarmwater
Spoiler:
what the hell are you talking about? Bale never used the machine, he had a twin brother. The sidekick with the beard. They would rotate and "switch roles", which is why somedays he loved her, somedays he didn't, also the reason why he had to cut off his brothers fingers. Michael Caines character knew it all along. Did you fall asleep at the end? How could you miss that much?
Actually, I didn't miss that.
Maybe you missed all the times the movie had characters discuss "the machine that Tesla built for Bordin" ?

I believe it was deliberately implied that
Spoiler:
Bale's character had met with Tesla, and gotten a machine made for him, and he'd used it to make a twin, and used that to make their act.

Unless you already went passed that misdirection, and assumed that Bale lied to Angier about all that as a cover story for some amazingly-coincidental reason (since a machine of Tesla's DID in fact grant him the ability to "teleport"), and Angiers believed him enough to fly across the world and hire Tesla to make him the same machine.....

As I see it, there are two explanations for the movie, each with support:
Spoiler:
1) Bale's character always had a twin (this is what I think).
2) Bale had Tesla dupe him once to make a body double in an obsessive need to be a great magician, and then they made the sacrifice of living half a life for their art/act.
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Old 10-23-06, 12:21 PM
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Spoiler:
A thread composed solely of spoilers. ...I like.
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Old 10-23-06, 12:38 PM
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Spoiler:
Spoiler:
nested
Spoiler:
fun!
Spoiler:
woot!


Well, after a few days of letting it settle, I no longer hate the ending and kind of want to see the movie again.
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Old 10-23-06, 12:44 PM
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Originally Posted by reapersaurus
Actually, I didn't miss that.
Maybe you missed all the times the movie had characters discuss "the machine that Tesla built for Bordin" ?

I believe it was deliberately implied that
Spoiler:
Bale's character had met with Tesla, and gotten a machine made for him, and he'd used it to make a twin, and used that to make their act.

Unless you already went passed that misdirection, and assumed that Bale lied to Angier about all that as a cover story for some amazingly-coincidental reason (since a machine of Tesla's DID in fact grant him the ability to "teleport"), and Angiers believed him enough to fly across the world and hire Tesla to make him the same machine.....

As I see it, there are two explanations for the movie, each with support:
Spoiler:
1) Bale's character always had a twin (this is what I think).
2) Bale had Tesla dupe him once to make a body double in an obsessive need to be a great magician, and then they made the sacrifice of living half a life for their art/act.
Spoiler:

No Bale never had tesla build the machine it was just a trick to get Jackman to go to america and give tesla money because they were out of funding. Remember the scene where jackman yells at Tesla because they lied and took his money.
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Old 10-23-06, 01:50 PM
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Originally Posted by bunkaroo
First, why the joint venture between Touchstone and WB? Did one give it up to the other? I have to wonder....those two usually don't work together. I'm hoping it's WB and not Disney that comes out with the home video rights so we get a decent transfer instead of one of the many BV edge enhancement fests.
[/spoiler]
I was surprised about that also. Maybe Warner demanded to be in on it on order to let Nolan (and some of his cast) do this film before the Batman Begins sequel.
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Old 10-23-06, 02:29 PM
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Originally Posted by lukewarmwater
Spoiler:

No Bale never had tesla build the machine it was just a trick to get Jackman to go to america and give tesla money because they were out of funding. Remember the scene where jackman yells at Tesla because they lied and took his money.
Thanks for the reply.
I agree that is a possibility. (Of course, they didn't lie and take his money....and there is no evidence of Bale being in cahoots with Tesla....)

I think there may be enough that was shown on screen to support either interpretation.
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Old 10-23-06, 02:42 PM
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Originally Posted by reapersaurus
Thanks for the reply.
I agree that is a possibility. (Of course, they didn't lie and take his money....and there is no evidence of Bale being in cahoots with Tesla....)

I think there may be enough that was shown on screen to support either interpretation.
Spoiler:
If it's possible that Bale duplicated himself with Tesla's machine, why was was he so distraught when he couldn't figure out how Jackman did it? I think they made an explicit point to show that Bale didn't know anything of the machine. Plus, why would he be so shocked when Jackman showed up in the jail at the end with his daughter? If he knew that Jackman had duplicated himself I don't think he would have put himself at risk just to find out how he did it.
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Old 10-23-06, 03:36 PM
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Originally Posted by bravesmg
Spoiler:
If it's possible that Bale duplicated himself with Tesla's machine, why was was he so distraught when he couldn't figure out how Jackman did it? I think they made an explicit point to show that Bale didn't know anything of the machine. Plus, why would he be so shocked when Jackman showed up in the jail at the end with his daughter? If he knew that Jackman had duplicated himself I don't think he would have put himself at risk just to find out how he did it.
I was thinking those same things.

An answer might be
Spoiler:
Bale was acting at the end and feigning surprise.

What else explains the fact that his twin knows everything in the final scene?
When did he find all that out?
I thought the movie was clear that Michael Caine didn't know anything - so Bale would have had to have "gotten" to Caine and told him what was going on.
Remember, Caine "betrayed" Jackman by siding with Bale at the end ( a character point that I don't really follow).

I think the movie is much less clear than almost anyone is mentioning.
The "twists" are so deeply-layered and purposefully-ambiguous that it leaves just enough evidence onscreen to support multiple interpretations.

I THINK that's what Nolan was trying to do with this movie - fool us - trick us, while showing everything in front of the audience, but keeping the real trick under wraps.

In other words, the final act of the movie (analogous to The Prestige act of a magic show) revealed where the characters ended up, but not how they got there, just like a magic act does.
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Old 10-23-06, 05:41 PM
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Originally Posted by dvdirv
I was impressed with the acting and production design, but got turned off by the frequent twists. I got the impression that Nolan just wanted to jerk off the audience to show how clever he was.

The bottom line was that the ending just didn't have enough of a payoff after over 2 hours invested!
I have to agree. My first comment to my wife after was that Nolan was about 150% more clever than he had to be to have made this a good movie (of course I haven't read the book so I don't know how much was from the book and how much may have been "added" for the film).

Spoiler:
I also resented the twist into sci-fi (or, more accurately fantasy because that was what it really was). I love fantasies but not when they're shoehorned into where they don't belong. I do actually think I'll like it more though if I watch it again (and I do think it's worth watching again) and I know what's coming so it doesn't seem like it's just out of left field.

I also don't much like the way Tesla has been made into some sort of misunderstood and unfairly maligned and persecuted folk hero (this film is not the only thing that's done it). He was unquestionably a genius but he was also unquestionably a crank in a lot of ways. Granted he was right and Edison was wrong regarding AC vs. DC but Edison contributed far more to the modern world than Tesla.


I did enjoy and appreciate it enough to give it

***/**** and I think I'll like it more on repeat viewings.
Last edited by movielib; 10-23-06 at 05:54 PM.
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Old 10-23-06, 06:05 PM
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My 11 year old son likes magic and wants to see this movie. Anything too disturbing for that age? Is it more PG or PG-13?
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Old 10-23-06, 07:11 PM
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I'm not a parent, but my opinion is this leans heavily on the PG-13 side. Multiple deaths (not the cartoony kind), and just a dark film overall. It's definitely got some disturbing part IMO.
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Old 10-23-06, 10:00 PM
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Originally Posted by edstein
My 11 year old son likes magic and wants to see this movie. Anything too disturbing for that age? Is it more PG or PG-13?
It is a "magic" movie and it's not, so I'm not sure that if your son likes magic, he'll like this movie. Kind of cryptic, but true!

Originally Posted by dvdirv
I was impressed with the acting and production design, but got turned off by the frequent twists. I got the impression that Nolan just wanted to jerk off the audience to show how clever he was.

The bottom line was that the ending just didn't have enough of a payoff after over 2 hours invested!
The twists were in the source material too -- I felt far more jerked off by Nolan in Memento than this one. (Yeah, yeah, sacred cow, but still....)

I think the ending WOULD have had the payoff if they'd stuck to the book for that one. In the book's ending,
Spoiler:
you're presented with a cave that is FILLED with the dead bodies of Angier -- all of the "prestiges" of his act. The movie kind of implied that, but I really wanted to see that! Other than that, I had no issues with the changes from the book.


Great movie! See it, but pay attention!
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Old 10-24-06, 01:13 AM
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Ending felt unsatisfying in the theater but, in retrospect, it works.

Reminiscent of Scott's The Duellists, in terms of capturing obsession and insane one-upmanship.
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Old 10-24-06, 03:22 PM
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OK, I purposely didn't read the posts that carefully bc I still have yet to see the movie but I wanted to get an idea for what people were thinking about the film bc I am planning on going to see it this week. But, it's really interesting to see that people are talking about the twists and turns left by Nolan...I think that this is typical of his film style as a director, and it throws back to his more traditional days when he first worked with his brother on memento. Everything that people feel as if he may have left out, was probably done so on purpose, so there is probably a reason behind why you feel unsettled or unsatisfied. I can't wait to see how I end up feeling afterwards...I think I am going to be one of the ones trying to figure out what he is trying to tell us.
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Old 10-25-06, 03:47 AM
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Finally saw this tonight. Along with The Fountain, this was my most anticipated film of the year. And I was not disappointed. A lot of good points have been brought up in this thread, to which I will add this:

Spoiler:
Everything in the film was done in service to the greater theme. The sci-fi isn't there to fill a plothole, it's there to deepen the themes. Angier thought Borden was doing real magic. Borden knew he wasn't. Borden let Angier think he did, fully expecting him to give up when he found out that Tesla had no answers. The fact that Tesla accidentally did give him real magic was entirely unintentional on Borden's part. For his part, once Angier decided to start killing his duplicates, he crossed a line that made him what he once refused to become. And even when we got to the final twists at the end, it didn't matter that you could see them coming, because they were there to show the differences in each character, not to make the audience ooh and ahh at the screenwriter's talent.


Some people mentioned that M. Night Shyamalan could learn a thing or two from this film, and I agree. In Shyamalan's films, the characters are built to fit a twist. In this film, the twist illuminates the characters and the theme. That's why this movie works.

I also wrote a spoiler-less review that should be up tomorrow in the theatrical reviews section.
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Old 10-25-06, 03:57 AM
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Originally Posted by SMB-IL
I think the ending WOULD have had the payoff if they'd stuck to the book for that one. In the book's ending,
Spoiler:
you're presented with a cave that is FILLED with the dead bodies of Angier -- all of the "prestiges" of his act. The movie kind of implied that, but I really wanted to see that! Other than that, I had no issues with the changes from the book.
IIRC...
Spoiler:
...they DID show that at the very end. Well, they showed the room full of tanks, so it is and it isn't the same thing.
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Old 10-25-06, 04:29 AM
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The way they did it worked out the best without having a huge fake looking composite shot.
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Old 10-25-06, 09:34 AM
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Originally Posted by pizzamousechips
IIRC...
Spoiler:
...they DID show that at the very end. Well, they showed the room full of tanks, so it is and it isn't the same thing.
agreed.

Spoiler:
as they pulled back at the end, you could see all the tanks and you could also clearly see an "Angier" in the last tank for a moment or two.

Sitting here thinking about that shot of all those tanks and the dead "Angier", and the idea of Angier doing what he did to get at his enemy makes the movie that much more chilling to me.




I liked this movie and as the hours go by I think I'm liking it more as I think about what I saw.

However, it's funny but....

Spoiler:
I could buy Angier duplicating himself and killing them faaaar easier than I can buy Borden and his "Brother" duping people by living a double...no quadruple life. Borden even played the game with his Wife. Why do that to her? Anyway, I just find it hard to believe no one really caught on to their game. Granted, there were suspiciouns and even physical evidence viewed by Scarlett's character...but no one ever knew.

but wait, now that I think about it...

Did Caine's character know about the brother from the beginning or was he let in on the game after realizing Angier was alive??????

Last edited by Giantrobo; 10-25-06 at 09:52 AM.
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Old 10-25-06, 01:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Giantrobo
I liked this movie and as the hours go by I think I'm liking it more as I think about what I saw.
I've been feeling like that all day (just saw it last night). Will definitely see it again and then decide whether or not to buy. I get the feeling that this has a lot of rewatchability.

Spoiler:
I was with a friend and she was saying that she thought that Angiers was being duplicated and I was like, "That's what the movie wants you to think. I think the actor from earlier got his act together and is a decent guy now." I mean after all, this is a period piece, they wouldn't do a
Spoiler:
Primer
on us. When they did I was actually stoked and am becoming more stoked the more I think about it. Also: Best lightning since Big Trouble in Little China.

I like that Tesla really was a wizard like Michael Caine had said.
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Old 10-25-06, 02:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Giantrobo
but wait, now that I think about it...

Spoiler:
Did Caine's character know about the brother from the beginning or was he let in on the game after realizing Angier was alive??????

Spoiler:
As far as I can tell, Caine's character was only brought in after he found out Angier was still alive. He didn't have much contact with Borden before he found out Angier was back. Nor did he have reason to contact Borden. Also, at the beginning, it shows him doing a trick for the girl in Borden's workshop, clearly waiting for him to return. Before that, she was living with Angier.
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Old 10-25-06, 03:40 PM
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Just got back from seeing it. I liked it a whole lot, and I now believe Nolan is one of the better filmmakers working. While this was not a comic book movie, it seemed to have that feel all over it. Nolan has a great visual style and he also does great character development. Can't wait for Dark Knight!

I actually came here looking for some explanation about the end.
Spoiler:
but it just makes me want to see the movie again! I was actually contemplating that Bale was in cahoots with Tesla, but it was obvious he wasn't in retrospect. I am just curious how he knew about Jackman's obsession with the man. The final shot of the Jackman character in the water tank did cement the fact that he was always cloning himself with that machine and whoever fell into the water died. I am guessing they all got Jackman's memories and such? That is the only loose end about this story that left me guessing and maybe wasn't well thought through at the source level.
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Old 10-25-06, 09:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Suprmallet
Spoiler:
As far as I can tell, Caine's character was only brought in after he found out Angier was still alive. He didn't have much contact with Borden before he found out Angier was back. Nor did he have reason to contact Borden. Also, at the beginning, it shows him doing a trick for the girl in Borden's workshop, clearly waiting for him to return. Before that, she was living with Angier.
Sounds reasonable.
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Old 10-25-06, 09:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Dr. DVD
Just got back from seeing it. I liked it a whole lot, and I now believe Nolan is one of the better filmmakers working. While this was not a comic book movie, it seemed to have that feel all over it. Nolan has a great visual style and he also does great character development. Can't wait for Dark Knight!

I actually came here looking for some explanation about the end.
Spoiler:
but it just makes me want to see the movie again! I was actually contemplating that Bale was in cahoots with Tesla, but it was obvious he wasn't in retrospect. I am just curious how he knew about Jackman's obsession with the man. The final shot of the Jackman character in the water tank did cement the fact that he was always cloning himself with that machine and whoever fell into the water died. I am guessing they all got Jackman's memories and such? That is the only loose end about this story that left me guessing and maybe wasn't well thought through at the source level.
Spoiler:
As someone mentioned, they're not clones, they're duplicates. A clone is a copy using the same genetic material. These duplicates were Angier in every single way, including memory. If they were allowed to live after the trick, then their experiences would diverge, but at the time of duplication, they are exactly the same in every single aspect.
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Old 10-25-06, 10:09 PM
  #75  
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Originally Posted by Finisher
Reminiscent of Scott's The Duellists, in terms of capturing obsession and insane one-upmanship.
The exact movie I was thinking of when I saw this today.

Anyway, great flick. The 'twist' makes sense to me and I was satisfied with it. I would like to see it a second time since I know I'll pick up on some things a second time through.

Also...was great to see Ricky Jay in a brief role (he dabbles in magic when he's not making movies).
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