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Old 05-16-12, 09:58 PM
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re: Star Wars: Episode VI - Return of the Jedi (1983 D: Marquand) S: Hamill, Ford, Fisher, Williams

Just stumbled on this thread. Fascinating. ROTJ was my favorite growing up, and it is still a very good movie, but it has flaws. I don't think those flaws take away significantly and think ROTJ stands up well with SW and ESB.
Old 11-03-13, 02:50 PM
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re: Star Wars: Episode VI - Return of the Jedi (1983 D: Marquand) S: Hamill, Ford, Fisher, Williams

So- has anyone else picked up the newest Rinzler book on the Making Of Jedi?

As much as I hate this film (which is enormously and enthusiastically), I was still anticipating this book quite a bit as I was hoping it would shed some insight into the story development during pre-production. While I'm disappointed that we don't get anything at all on the original ideas Lucas had (as previously related by Kurtz) that were completely antithetical to the produced Jedi ( heroic deaths of major characters, bittersweet ending, etc) There is still some good material revealed that shows early on Lucas was attempting to address many of the fundamental complaints I and others have always had with the final screenplay.

Even for me this is going to be a huge dense post, so I'll spoiler it for those few that honestly want to read it.

Spoiler:
For anyone not picking this up I'll tick off a few ideas that I think they foolishly abandoned or changed starting with probably the major one

Character Continuity from Empire to Jedi
Even Brad Bird in his forward, after making sure to be as complimentary and positive as possible (he is after all a peer and counts Lucas now as a personal friend and mentor) admits that as excited as he was as a teen for the film's release, he walked out of the theater in May '83 with many of the same 'beefs' I'd had.
Brad Bird writes
The disconnect between Jedi's Luke Skywalker and Empire's Luke who had cut short his training against the advice of his Jedi Mentors to save his friends, then (a) failed to save his friends; (b) got his ass kicked, losing a hand in the process; and (c), found out the most dastardly villain in the galaxy is also his dad
Luke is one humbled Jedi at the conclusion of Empire, so I had trouble connecting that guy with the cocky dude who shows up at Jabba's palace in the beginning of Jedi. I also wished the film had followed up on Vader's plan (as Vader himself stated in Empire) for Luke to join him in his overthrow of the Emperor...
If you go back a few pages, this is almost word for word what I'd written years back.

Interesting then that in one GL's very first pass at a story treatment he has in the first act
  • Vader first face to face with the Emperor has them talking then arguing
  • the Emperor and Moff Jerjerrod then are shown plotting against Vader
  • Leia does not abandon her duties to Alliance to run off and help save her boyfriend. In the first act she is already involved in a separate mission (on the moon similar to mission in the final film).
  • In the first act Luke is also shown trying to resolve things with Yoda and Ben before going to Tattoine.
  • The rescue of Han takes place in the second act.

A subsequent variation has Lucas toying with the idea of having the Emperor capture Luke (on or near Tatooine) with the purpose of keeping him away from Vader.

While all this unfortunately still operates within a basic lazy plot of "there's a new Death Star we have to destroy", at least we now know the characters were being considered with an eye toward stronger emotional and expressed continuity.
Key here for me is a first scene between Vader and the Emperor that would have been VASTLY SUPERIOR to what ended up on film- not only because it flows organically from the stated convictions and mindsets of these two characters from the last film, but because it also points the way to more interesting and mature conflicts that would have had to play out and get resolved over the course of the film.

This would have been the first scene from the film, as Vader is summoned to appear before the Emperor

The Emperor
Lord Vader, you have been away from us far too long. You seem...much weaker. I'm afraid that prolonged stay in the outer systems did not agree with you.

Vader
Yes, my master.

The Emperor
But we ask impossible things of you, don't we? Perhaps it is time for a task less demanding?

Vader
No, My Master, I beg you. I have all but turned him to the dark side.

The Emperor
Have you? We don't think so. Young Skywalker is more powerful now, than before your feeble attempts to convert him. He must be destroyed...DESTROYED do you hear?

Vader
Master you must give me...

The Emperor raises his hand and Vader's breathing suddenly stops

The Emperor

You are weak. More machine than man. You should be thankful we don't destroy you along with your troublesome offspring.

Vader collapses on the floor and the Emperor lowers his hand

The Emperor
Your son has become stronger with the force than you. It is as we have foreseen. Only WE can destroy him now.

Moff Jerjerrod looks on nervous. Vader clutching his throat, starts to breath again and rises to a kneeling position.

The Emperor (continued)
We want him here. We will tolerate no more discussion on the subject. The boy is ours.

Vader
Yes. Forgive me, Master.

The Emperor
Leave us... we have other matters to attend to.

Vader exits the throne room and the elevator door closes silently behind him.
As he passes the guards they snap to attention. Vader doesn't notice.

Moff Jerjerrod is beckoned closer to the Emperor. He on a step of the throne.


Moff Jerrjerrod
Yes, master.

The Emperor
Watch him closely. Lord Vader is still strong enough to cloud his thoughts. We suspect his motives in trying to convert the boy, but, in time, young Skywalker will embrace the dark side of the force.
At this point Vader tries to establish a mental contact with Luke, warning him of the Emperors plan and reemphasizing their need to join forces and defeat him.
At this point Yoda enters his dream state and warns Luke not to be confused by Vader. Luke questions both Yoda and Ben on why they didn't tell him sooner...

There are several things here I just love.

1) continuity from ESB.
  • Vader was given an assignment and failed and there is consequence from the Emperor for it.
  • Vaders petitioning to luke to join him was a concrete idea that is followed up on ...and the all powerful Emperor is shown to be suspicious immediately.
    This is a FAR more powerful and commanding conception of the character rather than the passive wizend crone that changes his all important goals for no real reason.
    (" eh, forget what I said in the last film. There's no urgency in getting luke. Eventually he will come to us.")
  • Luke is early on shown as wracked with doubt and confusion over what he has learned in the last film. He is NOT a swaggering bad ass. He has clearly been impacted by the last films events and that is carried right over here.
2) New and interesting conflict is established right off the bat
  • Vader is now in clear conflict with the Emperor
  • Jerjerrod is also positioned as a point of conflict for Vader to navigate around
  • the very first scene with Lukes is where we see the conflict raging in his psyche. This isn't put on pause for the first act so we can have a feel good set piece and then we hit play again. We are going to see the character have to function throughout the film with this underpinning all his actions and motivations.

3) the way the Emperor is portrayed. His mean spirited, condescending tone; the way he uses "we" which implies another realm of evil that he is apart of that Vader isn't privy to; the way he is shown as powerful active and engaged- not passive and reactionary.

I'm still working my way through the book (the story development is given a generous amount of the books page count...probably around 60 pages at least) but these were things that tickled me to see almost immediately.
Even within the framework of "Hey it's another Death Star" and "Deadbeat, mass killer dad is my best bud after all", there were some honestly sound attempts to knit this stuff together into a much more nuanced and sophisticated whole.

Last edited by Paul_SD; 11-03-13 at 03:09 PM.
Old 11-03-13, 03:17 PM
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re: Star Wars: Episode VI - Return of the Jedi (1983 D: Marquand) S: Hamill, Ford, Fisher, Williams

Paul, thanks for the summation there. That definitely sounds like a much more cohesive and interesting approach than what we got. Not sure I'm going to bother to pick up the book, so your notes are appreciated.

Also, I never noticed Terrell's spirited defense of Lucas in this thread. It makes his posts in the "Disney buys Star Wars" and "Episode VII" threads make much more sense.
Old 11-03-13, 03:33 PM
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re: Star Wars: Episode VI - Return of the Jedi (1983 D: Marquand) S: Hamill, Ford, Fisher, Williams

ooooooh. I might get that book. I love this kind of stuff.
Old 11-03-13, 03:35 PM
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re: Star Wars: Episode VI - Return of the Jedi (1983 D: Marquand) S: Hamill, Ford, Fisher, Williams

You're very welcome!

If I run across any other things that stick out to me I'll mention those. @ $75 msrp($50+ retail) it's not a casual purchase for most people. But this is information I've wanted to know for decades now, so it's worth it to me to finally scratch the itch. There was an opportunity to impart a lot of this same info in the Annotated Screenplays book, but this is the first I'm reading a lot of these more embryonic ideas.
Old 11-03-13, 06:06 PM
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re: Star Wars: Episode VI - Return of the Jedi (1983 D: Marquand) S: Hamill, Ford, Fisher, Williams

I have the SW and Empire books already, and they are great.
Old 11-03-13, 08:06 PM
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re: Star Wars: Episode VI - Return of the Jedi (1983 D: Marquand) S: Hamill, Ford, Fisher, Williams

Hm, not only would that give ROTJ more continuity with TESB, it would also fit better with the Anakin/Vader of the prequels. He was never truly loyal to the Emperor, they were both just using the other for their own goals.
Old 11-03-13, 10:08 PM
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re: Star Wars: Episode VI - Return of the Jedi (1983 D: Marquand) S: Hamill, Ford, Fisher, Williams

And the main reason I like Jedi the best, is for bad ass Luke. But a slower transition would have been interesting.
Old 11-03-13, 11:08 PM
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re: Star Wars: Episode VI - Return of the Jedi (1983 D: Marquand) S: Hamill, Ford, Fisher, Williams

I've always liked Jedi the best of the OT. It was the first one I was able to see during its first run. I saw ANH & ESB during rereleases. Was the perfect age also so I've always loved the Ewoks. Never saw Jabba's palace as a bunch of Muppets. It was full of awesome monsters. Best space battle of the series and sill what I compare any other space battles to.
Old 11-04-13, 12:05 AM
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re: Star Wars: Episode VI - Return of the Jedi (1983 D: Marquand) S: Hamill, Ford, Fisher, Williams

I liked them in their order of release. I still like to consider the 77 film a stand alone and brilliant in it's own right. It should have been left alone after the first film.


The prequels and the new films really hold no interest for me. At All. I tolerate Empire a lot more than Jedi though.
Old 11-04-13, 12:30 AM
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re: Star Wars: Episode VI - Return of the Jedi (1983 D: Marquand) S: Hamill, Ford, Fisher, Williams

Return of the Jedi is an absolute masterpiece compared to anything from the Prequel Trilogy. There are so many cool moments in Return of the Jedi. Yes, the Ewoks get annoying but they might as well be Alec Guinness when you compare them to Jar Jar.
Old 11-04-13, 01:39 AM
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re: Star Wars: Episode VI - Return of the Jedi (1983 D: Marquand) S: Hamill, Ford, Fisher, Williams

Two of the moments that really made me cringe came from watching too much television as a kid, these were big cliches for me.

I had seen Gilligan get caught in a net and subsequently crash to the ground way too many times before it happened to our heroes in Jedi.

Love Boat staging, where a character turns away from the other character and walks to the railing to make some sort of deep reveal/confession happened almost every week, when Luke did this with Vader, a part of me died inside.
Old 11-04-13, 07:58 AM
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re: Star Wars: Episode VI - Return of the Jedi (1983 D: Marquand) S: Hamill, Ford, Fisher, Williams

Originally Posted by JumpCutz
I still like to consider the 77 film a stand alone and brilliant in it's own right. It should have been left alone after the first film.
I read an interesting blog a few years ago about 'If Star Wars had no sequels/prequels.'

It was an interesting take if Lucas would have stopped after 1977 and the Original Star Wars stood alone like Citizen Kane and Lawrence of Arabia. How the sequels and mostly the prequels have really denegrated the Original because of the various special edition changes, and constant plot point changes to the story over the years.

Many young kids can't appreciate the Original SW the same way our generation did because they are looking at it through the lens of the 6 movies now, and how Lucas & SW fandom has become a punchline nowadays.
Old 11-04-13, 09:34 AM
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re: Star Wars: Episode VI - Return of the Jedi (1983 D: Marquand) S: Hamill, Ford, Fisher, Williams

Originally Posted by PhantomStranger
Return of the Jedi is an absolute masterpiece compared to anything from the Prequel Trilogy. There are so many cool moments in Return of the Jedi. Yes, the Ewoks get annoying but they might as well be Alec Guinness when you compare them to Jar Jar.
I'd still take Revenge Of The Sith over RoTJ. I've never been a huge fan of RoTJ. Such a downgrade from IV and V.
Old 11-04-13, 11:07 AM
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re: Star Wars: Episode VI - Return of the Jedi (1983 D: Marquand) S: Hamill, Ford, Fisher, Williams

Originally Posted by mcnabb
It was an interesting take if Lucas would have stopped after 1977 and the Original Star Wars stood alone like Citizen Kane and Lawrence of Arabia.
I think the definite difference is that it would feel more like a 'time capsule' piece than the big eternal pop culture dynasty it is now. I was just thinking about this with E.T. recently... it was a HUGE deal in its day, for years the highest grossing film domestically of all time (ignoring inflation adjustment). But when I passed the E.T. attraction at Universal Studios it struck me how it feels like a piece of 80s nostalgia, no longer ingrained in the pop culture public conscious like Star Wars, James Bond, etc.
Old 11-04-13, 11:11 AM
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re: Star Wars: Episode VI - Return of the Jedi (1983 D: Marquand) S: Hamill, Ford, Fisher, Williams

Originally Posted by mcnabb
I read an interesting blog a few years ago about 'If Star Wars had no sequels/prequels.'

It was an interesting take if Lucas would have stopped after 1977 and the Original Star Wars stood alone like Citizen Kane and Lawrence of Arabia. How the sequels and mostly the prequels have really denegrated the Original because of the various special edition changes, and constant plot point changes to the story over the years.

Many young kids can't appreciate the Original SW the same way our generation did because they are looking at it through the lens of the 6 movies now, and how Lucas & SW fandom has become a punchline nowadays.
Even if they had just left the OT alone, the series would still be very revered. It's the flood of subpar material since the Thrawn Trilogy that's really knocked SW off its cultural pedestal.

Originally Posted by bootsy
I'd still take Revenge Of The Sith over RoTJ. I've never been a huge fan of RoTJ. Such a downgrade from IV and V.
I agree. A lot of people say "Ewoks>Jar Jar" but I say Ewan McGregor>Ewoks. I got a really good fan edit of RotS that tightens it up considerably and in that form there's no question that it's a better film than RotJ (I know, unfair because it's not the real cut, but it just highlights how much good stuff there actually is in RotS).
Old 11-04-13, 02:04 PM
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re: Star Wars: Episode VI - Return of the Jedi (1983 D: Marquand) S: Hamill, Ford, Fisher, Williams

Originally Posted by mcnabb
I read an interesting blog a few years ago about 'If Star Wars had no sequels/prequels.'

It was an interesting take if Lucas would have stopped after 1977 and the Original Star Wars stood alone like Citizen Kane and Lawrence of Arabia. How the sequels and mostly the prequels have really denegrated the Original because of the various special edition changes, and constant plot point changes to the story over the years.

Many young kids can't appreciate the Original SW the same way our generation did because they are looking at it through the lens of the 6 movies now, and how Lucas & SW fandom has become a punchline nowadays.
Star Wars would have only become a fondly remembered '70s movie like Jaws without at least Empire Strikes Back happening. It was Empire and the shocking ending that took the franchise to new cultural heights.
Old 11-04-13, 04:44 PM
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re: Star Wars: Episode VI - Return of the Jedi (1983 D: Marquand) S: Hamill, Ford, Fisher, Williams

Originally Posted by Supermallet


I agree. A lot of people say "Ewoks>Jar Jar" but I say Ewan McGregor>Ewoks. I got a really good fan edit of RotS that tightens it up considerably and in that form there's no question that it's a better film than RotJ (I know, unfair because it's not the real cut, but it just highlights how much good stuff there actually is in RotS).
For me I like when Star Wars is dark and my 3 favorite films III, IV, and V all have dark overtones to them. RoTJ was just too upbeat for my taste. I really try to convince myself to like it everytime I watch but I can't.
Old 11-04-13, 04:47 PM
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re: Star Wars: Episode VI - Return of the Jedi (1983 D: Marquand) S: Hamill, Ford, Fisher, Williams

I enjoyed the theatrical version of Jedi well enough when it was released but now that there is a blinking Ewok it has moved up to masterpiece of cinema, IMO.
Old 11-04-13, 07:56 PM
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re: Star Wars: Episode VI - Return of the Jedi (1983 D: Marquand) S: Hamill, Ford, Fisher, Williams

Originally Posted by stvn1974
I enjoyed the theatrical version of Jedi well enough when it was released but now that there is a blinking Ewok it has moved up to masterpiece of cinema, IMO.
Plus, I never knew what Vader was thinking when he tossed the Emperor into the reactor shaft. Now that we hear Vader say, "No," I can understand.
Old 11-04-13, 09:13 PM
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re: Star Wars: Episode VI - Return of the Jedi (1983 D: Marquand) S: Hamill, Ford, Fisher, Williams

I've never considered Return of the Jedi the best film of the Star Wars trilogy but I guess I never really understood the hate for it either. There's some good stuff in it (Jabba's palace scenes, speeder bike chase on Endor, the second duel between Luke and Vader, redemption of Vader). The Ewoks aren't my favorite characters but I honestly never really hated them I guess.
Old 11-05-13, 12:33 AM
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re: Star Wars: Episode VI - Return of the Jedi (1983 D: Marquand) S: Hamill, Ford, Fisher, Williams

Originally Posted by Mike86
I've never considered Return of the Jedi the best film of the Star Wars trilogy but I guess I never really understood the hate for it either. There's some good stuff in it (Jabba's palace scenes, speeder bike chase on Endor, the second duel between Luke and Vader, redemption of Vader). The Ewoks aren't my favorite characters but I honestly never really hated them I guess.
I totally agree with all of this. I still like Return of the Jedi. Weirdly, Empire is my least favorite of the 3. (I know that's nerd blasphemy to say it out loud).

The original Star Wars will always be favorite from 1977.
Old 11-05-13, 06:54 AM
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re: Star Wars: Episode VI - Return of the Jedi (1983 D: Marquand) S: Hamill, Ford, Fisher, Williams

Originally Posted by Mike86
I've never considered Return of the Jedi the best film of the Star Wars trilogy but I guess I never really understood the hate for it either. There's some good stuff in it (Jabba's palace scenes, speeder bike chase on Endor, the second duel between Luke and Vader, redemption of Vader). The Ewoks aren't my favorite characters but I honestly never really hated them I guess.
The problem with ROTJ is the pacing, as there are some great moments that rival anything in the trilogy, and there are some bad moments that the movie comes to a complete halt.

The opening scene with Jabba is too long, and too boring IMO until Luke fights the rancor. And frankly, the whole plan to free Han makes no sense, especially when Leia rescues him yet Jabba and his crowd are all hiding behind a curtain? I guess he doesn't like his favorite decoration, because he watched this bounty hunter free Han and did nothing?

When Luke and Co. get to Endor, the movie comes to a complete halt after the Speeder Bike Chase, and doesn't really get good again until the throne room scenes.

I actually think the Ewoks are the least of the problems of ROTJ, as the pacing is terrible compared to Star Wars and Empire. Star Wars and Empire are compelling for all 2 hours, and there just isn't a bad scene in them (IMO), whereas half of ROTJ is great, and the other half is bad.

The Prequels continued that trend, but those movies are about 1/4 great, and 3/4 bad, as they ALL suffer the same pacing problems too.
Old 11-05-13, 07:01 AM
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re: Star Wars: Episode VI - Return of the Jedi (1983 D: Marquand) S: Hamill, Ford, Fisher, Williams

These SW threads are all the same. Bitching and how "I" would've done it better. It's so predictable.
Old 11-05-13, 07:37 AM
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re: Star Wars: Episode VI - Return of the Jedi (1983 D: Marquand) S: Hamill, Ford, Fisher, Williams

Originally Posted by Tom Creo
These SW threads are all the same. Bitching and how "I" would've done it better. It's so predictable.
Compared to any other discussion thread, where all anyone does is heap praise?


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