I have a question about "Se7en," (spoilers).
05-31-05, 07:33 PM
#1
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I have a question about "Se7en," (spoilers).
I watched "Seven" again night before last, and I was left with a few questions about the motivation of some characters, one in particular.
I mentioned it in the title, but just in case, I'll go ahead with this...
Any thoughts? It was only the second time I'd seen the film, and I thoroughly enjoyed it (even more than the first time I watched it). Fincher's a solid director, the story is a good one, and the acting is great all around.
-JP
I mentioned it in the title, but just in case, I'll go ahead with this...
Spoiler:
Any thoughts? It was only the second time I'd seen the film, and I thoroughly enjoyed it (even more than the first time I watched it). Fincher's a solid director, the story is a good one, and the acting is great all around.
-JP
05-31-05, 07:49 PM
#3
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Originally Posted by Jason Bovberg
He may not have killed Mills, but he certainly destroyed him.
-JP
05-31-05, 07:57 PM
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Doe and Somerset are perfect foils. You'll remember from the bar scene that Somerset is also disgusted with mankind for its apathy. Mills calls him out on this, and Somerset admits he is guilty of being the very thing he despises. The same is true for Doe. He is no different from anyone else, as Mills points out, for he is human, and is guilty of all of humanity's offenses. That is why Doe kills himself, albeit indirectly.
This is all according to the film, though. I find the ideas in this movie sick to be quite honest.
This is all according to the film, though. I find the ideas in this movie sick to be quite honest.
05-31-05, 08:15 PM
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I think part of John Doe's point is that he is no better than those that he killed; that he himself is a sinner. And in the end, he recieves the same fate as his victims. So he's not really a hypocrite: he himself is the ultimate justification for his beliefs. I always thought David will be executed for his actions.
05-31-05, 08:24 PM
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Originally Posted by SFranke
Doe and Somerset are perfect foils. You'll remember from the bar scene that Somerset is also disgusted with mankind for its apathy. Mills calls him out on this, and Somerset admits he is guilty of being the very thing he despises. The same is true for Doe. He is no different from anyone else, as Mills points out, for he is human, and is guilty of all of humanity's offenses. That is why Doe kills himself, albeit indirectly.
This is all according to the film, though. I find the ideas in this movie sick to be quite honest.
This is all according to the film, though. I find the ideas in this movie sick to be quite honest.
Originally Posted by Superboy
I think part of John Doe's point is that he is no better than those that he killed; that he himself is a sinner. And in the end, he recieves the same fate as his victims. So he's not really a hypocrite: he himself is the ultimate justification for his beliefs. I always thought David will be executed for his actions.
I think the main difference is, he knew from the outset that he was envious. He factored that into his plan. He knew that, if all went as planned, he would be punished for this very sin. That was part of the master plan. His envy played a vital role in the fruition of his plan, his killing an innocent person didn't. The act of killing an innocent person negates the idea that everything he did had some sort of higher, "martyristic" purpose.
-JP
05-31-05, 09:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Superboy
I think part of John Doe's point is that he is no better than those that he killed; that he himself is a sinner. And in the end, he recieves the same fate as his victims. So he's not really a hypocrite: he himself is the ultimate justification for his beliefs. I always thought David will be executed for his actions.
05-31-05, 09:27 PM
#9
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Originally Posted by Superboy
I think part of John Doe's point is that he is no better than those that he killed; that he himself is a sinner. And in the end, he recieves the same fate as his victims. So he's not really a hypocrite: he himself is the ultimate justification for his beliefs. I always thought David will be executed for his actions.
05-31-05, 10:43 PM
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See, I'll agree with the first part as well. He did think of himself as a sinner, and he did receive the same fate. However, his sin was envy...and that fell in with his plan. For his "masterwork" to be of the significance he viewed it with, all of his acts would have to be righteous...all the way down to becoming a martyr due to his envy. I just don't see how killing an innocent victim fits in with his plan.
-JP
-JP
05-31-05, 11:02 PM
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It's important to remember that 7 people end up dead (I think they all die) because of his action. Whereas the first 5 WERE examples of the sin, John Doe was Envy, and used this as his reasoning for killing Mills' wife, just as Mills ended up being wrath and killing Doe. Neither of these two died as a result of the sin, (well I suppose you could argue Doe wouldn't have died unless he was envious...) as opposed to the first 5, which were clearly examples of their sin.
06-01-05, 12:42 AM
#12
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Originally Posted by Jericho
I'd also agree with the exception of the last sentence. There's no way David would be executed in any court of law.
06-01-05, 01:18 AM
#13
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He wouldn't be killed by the state, because he didn't commit capital murder. As for him killing himself...I'd have liked the film much, MUCH more if he'd gone ahead and saved a bullet for himself in the field, completing the 7 deaths for the 7 deadly sins (and leaving that pesky 8th victim and unborn child that keeps irking me).
Instead, we get some bullshit scene where the cop promises to take good care of Mills, and Somerset gives a hokey line to the effect of, "I'll be around...I'll be around."
-JP
Instead, we get some bullshit scene where the cop promises to take good care of Mills, and Somerset gives a hokey line to the effect of, "I'll be around...I'll be around."
-JP
06-02-05, 08:43 AM
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Originally Posted by NatrlBornThrllr
and insane as he may have been, I just don't see him viewing the murder of an innocent person as an option
06-07-05, 07:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Superboy
I always thought David will be executed for his actions.
06-07-05, 07:24 PM
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First of all, I'll argue all day about Somerset telling Mills that he's going to deathrow. That is not what he said there, its been discussed in the last 100 Se7en threads.
Second of all...
He is envy, Mills is Wrath.
The point of his little project was to punish for the Seven Deadly Sins. If you don't think Mills is destroyed by this, therefore punished, I think your'e a bit crazy. Also, I'd be surprised if he doesn't wind up killing himself for losing his career and his wife on one horrible day..
Second of all...
He is envy, Mills is Wrath.
The point of his little project was to punish for the Seven Deadly Sins. If you don't think Mills is destroyed by this, therefore punished, I think your'e a bit crazy. Also, I'd be surprised if he doesn't wind up killing himself for losing his career and his wife on one horrible day..
06-07-05, 08:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Thunderball
First of all, I'll argue all day about Somerset telling Mills that he's going to deathrow. That is not what he said there, its been discussed in the last 100 Se7en threads.
06-07-05, 08:43 PM
#22
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Originally Posted by lisadoris
I just rewatched the film and I have to partially agree with you. Somerset specially tells Mills that killing a suspect would send him to death row and I'm guessing Doe knew this. Whether or not a jury would actually convict him is another matter.
Capital offenses:
-Killing a peace officer
-Murder in the course of committing another first degree felony
-Murder for hire
-Killing a child under the age of six
-Murdering more than one person in one spree
-Killing a corrections officer while incarcerated.
The end.
Originally Posted by Thunderball
Second of all...
He is envy, Mills is Wrath.
The point of his little project was to punish for the Seven Deadly Sins. If you don't think Mills is destroyed by this, therefore punished, I think your'e a bit crazy. Also, I'd be surprised if he doesn't wind up killing himself for losing his career and his wife on one horrible day..
He is envy, Mills is Wrath.
The point of his little project was to punish for the Seven Deadly Sins. If you don't think Mills is destroyed by this, therefore punished, I think your'e a bit crazy. Also, I'd be surprised if he doesn't wind up killing himself for losing his career and his wife on one horrible day..
Originally Posted by Squirrel God
Aren't we forgetting something?
Spoiler:
-JP
06-08-05, 05:23 PM
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Originally Posted by NatrlBornThrllr
...but still not guilty of one of the seven deadly sins. She was an 8th victim, and I don't think killing an 8th person is consistent with Doe's persona or (admittedly twisted) moral structure. Not to mention her unborn child, which is practically innocence personified.
-JP
-JP
1. Pride - via comparing herself 'competitively' to others rather than accepting her life and state
2. Greed (aka Avarice) - due to wanting to get her "fair share" of her life, particularly at the expense of another.
3. Envy - due to her focusing on her own good rather than the good of others (specifically the good of her husband)
06-08-05, 05:38 PM
#24
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Well there's no denying that everybody, on some level, is guilty of one of the seven deadly sins. I think you're missing my point, though: she doesn't fit into his plan. His plan was to kill/punish seven people for their seven deadly sins. He picked extreme examples of each, and punished them for it. He then killed her, aside from the seven...simply to get to Mills. I don't see how anybody can say that killing her (especially when she wasn't blatantly guilty of anything) is consistant with Doe's plan or persona. You can twist her actions around to fit any deadly sin ("omg she didn't work, guilty of sloth") but that would be wholly inconsequential. In the big scheme of things, and in contrast to those Doe was out to punish, she was innocent...and so was her unborn child. Yet he killed both without hesitation, and I don't think that's consistant with his moral structure.
-JP
-JP
06-08-05, 07:26 PM
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No I understand your point, but their advancement in the case caused him to switch to a Plan B of sorts - if it were absolute perfection, I think he would've gone about things a different way and we would've seen Plan A.
There was also that conversation that Somerset had with Mills:
That has always suggested to me that the final scene, where in fact Mills does hold a gun to Doe, could have been engineered by Doe to achieve attrition. In 'Plan A', attrition may not have been a consideration. Maybe Doe therefore has some regret which also impinges on his original plans ...
There was also that conversation that Somerset had with Mills:
SOMERSET: For now, let's just consider the books as the murderer's inspiration. The books and sermons are about atonement for sin. And, these murders have been like forced attrition.
MILLS: Forced what?
SOMERSET: Attrition. When you regret your sins, but not because you love God.
MILLS: Like, because someone's holding a gun on you.
MILLS: Forced what?
SOMERSET: Attrition. When you regret your sins, but not because you love God.
MILLS: Like, because someone's holding a gun on you.