Anakin had dreams of Padme dying at childbirth. Because of those dreams he converted to the dark side. Padme died at childbirth because of his conversion.

This is totally wrong and makes no sense. It is a paradox and a totally lame way to tell the story.

It is the irony of his choice...he turned to save her...but in turning he killed her...

It makes plenty of sense. I didn't have a problem with it. Anakin let his emotions control him, and in the end the world he was striving to protect was the world he destroyed with his own hands. All the while he was suspecting everybody else being against him and his worst enemy, he was his worst enemy. It's a theme intergral to many great dramas, so why not here?

Actually that was the whole point.

Yes it is ironic, but it is also impossible - makes no sense.

How do I change thread title? I meant ROTS, not ATOS...

Exactly! It makes perfect sense. I'm not seeing the problem here. Anakin's downfall is in the choices he makes. That's the difference between he and Luke. Their journey mirrored one another, except Lucas made the right choice when it matter most. Anakin made a series of mistakes along the way, until he makes the wrong choice in the moment of truth, a choice that he thinks is for the right reason.

The thing that makes it so powerful for me is that his mistake is what cost him the one thing he was trying to protect.

i dont see a problem here
he was able to see the future
and it happened
yes, his choice made it happened.. but thats how the future works.

if you *really* thought you could see the future.. you would also have to *believe* that its destined to happen, and nothing you can do can control that
obviously palpatine did a better job of seeing the future.. since he planned all of it out

First of all we are talking about a universe where a little green dude who walks with a cane can lift enitire ships with a magical "force" so I don't see how it is impossible.

What is so confusing about this...Anakin saw the future...a future he caused. He thought that his choice would avoid that future, but instead he caused it. Just like Luke in ESB...he saw visions of his friends in pain, and instead of rescuing them, his friends had to rescue him.

From ESB:

Luke: I saw a city in the clouds. They were in pain.
Yoda: It is the future you see.
Luke: Will they die?
Yoda: Difficult to see. Always in motion is future.
Luke: I've gotta go to them.
Yoda: Decide you must what to serve them best. If you leave now, help them you could but you would destroy all for which they have fought and suffered.

What I don't get is that if Yoda can share visions of others through the force, then why doesn't he know that Anakin is having these visions? and if he does know...why doesn't he do something more about it than say: "fear of loss is the path to the dark side". I don't think that Anakin really cared about the dark side taking over him. I think he was just afraid of losing Padme, and was willing to do anything possible to stop it from happening.

There are no plotholes!!!

But he was seeing this future at the time he hadn't yet made those choices. It was his visions of THAT future that caused him to make those choices that lead to that future. It is a paradox. A form of the chicken-egg problem. It's common in stories with time-travel and constitutes weak story telling. The only possible explanation is that Palpatine had caused him to have those visions in the first place to manipulate him towards the dark side (that's if he had been able to actually see the future and it's possible forms...) That is not implied in any episode. We are led to understand that he is simply very cunning and is able to manupulate the events (present) in such a way that all outcomes assure his victory.

This doesn't mean Yoda saw anything. He was going on what Luke told him and tried to see, but couldn't.

I would guess he doesn't know because, as explained in AOTC the Jedi's ability to use the force has diminished...and that the dark side is clouding everything. By ROTS Mace seems to have sensed that the dark side surrounds Palpatine...but by then it is too late...he has his hooks in the Senate and Anakin. I also agree that Anakin didn't really care about the dark side...he just cared about the powers it could give him...he has been trapped by Palpatine.

I view this in one of two ways.

It could be a future that was fated to happen no matter what. Much like Oedipus, who is fated to kill his father and marry his mother. No matter what Oedipus tries to do to avoid this fate, he simply can't, and it comes true. So perhaps Anakin was also screwed no matter what, and Palpatine just used Anakin's dream to his advantage.

Or, it's a POSSIBLE future, much like the one Luke sees in Empire when he experiences Han and Leia in pain. In this example, Anakin makes decisions that cause this future to happen. Perhaps if he hadn't chosen the dark side, this possible future ("always in motion, is the future") wouldn't have come true.

-HM

Ok...it really isn't a paradox...it is more like irony. Anakin saw the visions...thought he could prevent him...but in the end...he was seeing the future he would cause. He didn't understand the visions. Also consider the fact that the prophecy said he would destroy the Sith, while Obi Wan and the others think that the phophecy is wrong...in the end it is correct, cause he does indeed destroy the Sith. All of this is "from a certain point of view".

Attack of the Sloanes? I see the OP is an Alias fan.

I agree that there is no problem. Of course you could always say that since time travel/seeing the future is not reality, it make no sense to hold it to the standards of time and space as we know it now. Maybe if time travel/seeing the future ever does happen, it will be b/c we find out everything we thought was true in fact was wrong.

Who is to say that Palpatine wasn't the one to plant those thoughts in his head? Palp saw a future path that would turn Anakin to the dark side and went with it. Anakin then started down a slippery slope that ended in all that he cared for being lost and he then had nothing left but the dark side.

ORACLE: I'd ask you to sit down, but you're not going to anyway. And don't worry about the vase.

NEO: What vase?
[turns to look around and his elbow knocks a vase from the table. It breaks against the linoleum floor.]

ORACLE: The vase.

NEO: I'm sorry.

ORACLE: I said don't worry about it. I'll get one of my kids to fix it.

NEO: How did you know...?

ORACLE: What's really going to bake your noodle later on is, would you still have broken it if I hadn't said anything.

Blah, blah... Stop trying to read too much into it. He saw the vision before (mother dying) and it happened. He saw the Padme vision and it happened. Nothing changed. That's pretty much it.

Yummy.

Maybe, Palp "encouraged" her death at childbirth. This would make a better reason for her death than a broken heart.

Wow, have you ever read any myths? Fairy tales?

This sort of storytelling device is pretty common -- it's called FATE. By trying to stop an event you cause it to happen. There's nothing illogical or pardoxical about it.

And it's hardly weak storytelling.

In both of the first two movies Padme was at the heart of epic battles, and escaped unharmed, but she does nothing for the entire EpIII and dies because it's convenient.

The "lost the will to live" explanation was horribly weak. If that were possible I wouldn't have made it past the Padme-Anakin "love" scene.

"Wizard..."

You know, you could go around and post that pic in every single thread in the subforum, and it would make perfect sense

I'm sorry for not being clear enough. This is not simple "fate", as Anakin's decision to take that path was caused by the consequences of taking that path. This is the paradox and it has nothing to do with destiny.

The response quoting Matrix had a similar example, but in that case the logic is straightforward. Oracle knew that Morpheus would break the vase when she warned him about it.

To respond to your response, consider this: Why would anyone feel compelled to try to prevent an event from happening if the event wouldn't normally happen anyway? Where is the compulsion coming from?