because he didn't know that his turn to the darkside would end up killing her, the vision was of her screaming in childbirth, not in a force death grip.
what's happening then is then; for us the movie watcher, what we see now is then. i've gone cross eyed..

Frightening, yet comforting, isn't it?

There is no paradox. He had a vision and it happened. No more, no less.

It's pretty easy.

His point is that it wouldn't have happened if he hadn't had the vision.

Yummyyummy is correct, it is a paradox. The whole idea of time travel and seeing the future does present a paradox. Where yummyyummy is mistaken is in the conclusion that it is bad story telling. It's a major theme frequently explored in the best science fiction. It's one of the theme's explored in The Matrix, it's been repeatedly examined by Clarke, Asimov, Heinlein, Dick, and all the other greats of the sci-fi genre.

No the paradox is that it may have been his fate and it didn't matter what he did, or it may not have been his fate but by making choices based on a vision he changed destiny.

Padme was the least of Palpatine's concern. He had wanted her dead from the get-go, going back TPM, but had great difficulty in killing her. He probably knew that Anakin's bad temper would turn on her and thus would be the easiest way to get rid of her.

I thought the "twist" where Anakin's decision to join the dark side to save Padme, only to have the opposite happen, was a very good plot point. Anakin was so vulnerable at this point, that he risked everything...and lost it all.

Maybe this is just me, but watching it, I had the sense that the emperor put that dream into Skywalker's head so he could use it to turn him. Notice he doesn't have the dream until he's at the capitol, close to the emperor. The entire rescue scene was staged by the emperor for the purpose of bring Skywalker to him (presumably so he can plant this idea in his mind).

The emperor knows Skywalker's history and their friendship makes it reasonable to believe Skywalker has told him about his dreams of his mother and his failure to act. Why wouldn't a Sith lord use this information to get what he wanted?

Anyway, I may be way off, but that's how it played out in my mind as I watched the movie.

[QUOTE=KnightLerxst]I also agree that Anakin didn't really care about the dark side...he just cared about the powers it could give himQUOTE]

This is the definition of the dark side, no?

It's not a plothole. Believe me, I've piled on ROTS for having plenty of plot inconsistencies, but this isn't one of them. Besides, if something like this bothers you, then forget about ever watching The Terminator, Minority Report, 12 Monkeys, etc. Paradoxes are dealt with in sci-fi all the time.

Plus, it's not like something like this is unprecedented in a Star Wars film. Empire had a similar plotline with Luke having the vision of Han and Leia in pain.

In Terminator, the only paradox that remains (after T3) is that the leader of the resistance is the son of the guy who came back in time to protect his mother. There is a logical explanation for this, however, if you conclude that her original son was the son of someone else and he too would have been the leader of the resistance. It was her son's fate to be the leader, no matter who the father is.

In Minority Report, the paradox at the end (he was supposed to kill him but didn't) just illustrates that there is no fate and that people's choices and thus the future can never be predicted with certainty.

In 12 monkeys there was nothing that could be seen as a paradox. Bruce Willis simply could not change the past. In fact, the future's government also realized that it is impossible and didn't try to alter the past. Thet just tried to gather information.

Also, don't assume that just because of this plot hole (the paradox) I didn't enjoy SW3. I enjoyed it very much and will be seeing it again.

Finally, in SW6, Luke's vision of Hahn and Leia had no paradox. They really were in pain, and would have been no matter what Luke did. They weren't in pain BECAUSE Luke went there.

This is a completely retarded thread discussion. The irony of the situation WAS the whole point of it. It is done intentionally, it isn't a plot hole. Anakin had a vision of the future, but its only a partial vision. What he doesn't see is that he is the cause of her death.

You think predicting the future is an exact science? There is no paradox here, only and oxymoron. And that oxymoron is you my friend.

It's funny that you would be insulting me. Either way, I've reported this personal attack to the moderators.

Is being called an oxymoron a bad thing? Not even sure what that means. I do think it is a little silly to say Lucas screwed up when we are talking about something that isn't even reality and as a result, there is no right or wrong answer. So in this case, Lucas intended for him to have a vision (with Palps help or not) that lead him to fulfill this vision in the end. I don't have a problem with it. Hopefully it wasn't such a big issue for you to make you dislike the film. Sucks for you if it did.

John Connor was raised to be a survivalist and to be the leader of the resistance because his mother was told of his future.

Second, SkyNet was built after they reverse engineered technology based on the parts of the Terminator that were recovered after the first one came back in time. Had the Terminator not come back to kill Sarah Connor, they wouldn't have developed the technology in the same time frame that allowed John Connor to be the leader of the resistance...

The paradox in Minority Report is that Anderton began searching for Leo Crow because of the pre-crime prediction. Anderton would not have been looking for Crow without the prediction. Had he not been looking for him he wouldn't have killed him... He wouldn't have been looking for him if not for the prediction...

The paradox in 12 Monkeys is that Cole's psychological problems stem from him as a child, witnessing his own death in the airport.

An oxymoron is a "contradiction in terms". Calling me that makes no sense, so it was just a "clever" way of calling me a moron. I never suggested that "time-travel" and seeing the future is "hard science". I do, however, expect plot twists so significant as that to make sense. That was the ultimate question that's been plaguing Star Wars fans for decades (ok, so I exaggerate). "How did Anakin turn to the dark side?" The answer we're given makes no sense.

But don't think I disliked the film. I liked it very much. I know it's just a story and don't really care so much about the details. I've learned a long time ago to just shut off my brain during the movies and anjoy the show.

You are right about the paradoxes in Minority Report in 12 monkeys. I hadn't noticed them. Hwoever, Terminator 3 showed how the machines were originally going to take over the world... Originally it had nothing to do with the parts (remains) of the 1st terminator and with John being trained by his mother/experiences.

TERMINATOR 3 SPOILER WARNING!!!!

John was going to meet his wife's dad (who was in charge of the AI project) and thus end up in the nuclear shelter just the way he did.

END OF SPOILER!!

T3 wrapped everything up very nicely.

Now you are insulting my intelligence and I am reporting you to the mods. ;)

I know what oxymoron means. I also know calling someone an oxymoron makes no sense and that is why I asked if it was even an insult. Obviously he was just trying to be clever with words that were used in this thread and really wasn't malicious (obviously you think differently). My take on this is that personal attacks are not welcome, but a little poking fun (as I see that post) is pretty harmless. If he kept at it for a couple more posts, then I think you have something. The way it stands now, I would just say you need to thicken up your skin a little bit. With that said, I have no power on this forum and that is only my opinion.

As for your problem with the twist, I think it is obvious that you are in the minority having a problem with it. I do think his turn was a little abrupt and could have used a little more time to flesh it out, but the fact that he had a vision of the future is not a problem. Again, either Palp could have planted a vision in his head that was used to turn him that ultimately came true, or he just saw part of his future that eventually came true. Just like your interpretation of Terminator, maybe with or without the vision Anakin would have turned to the dark side and ended up killing his wife. Bottom line is that we don't know what would happen if we were able to see the future and if it would allow us to change our "fate" or not. It makes no sense to me to say one person’s view of what would happen is wrong when there is no right answer. Sorry, you have a problem with this scene; most of us don't and nothing you have said so far has changed my mind.

So do you now have a problem with 12 Monkeys, Minority Report, etc and do you now see that this type thing is common in all movies that deal with time travel/seeing the future?

I don't care enough about them to be bothered. For SW3, I would definately prefer a more logical explanation, but will settle for the one I've been given.

So nobody else saw it the way I saw it? The way I saw it there was no contradiction or paradox. The emperor put those dreams in Anakin's head so he could use them agaisnt him. It makes perfect sense and explains the big charade of the "rescue" from Dooko.

I didn't get that impression at the time but I will look at it from that perspective when I watch the movie again this weekend. This would make a lot of sense, since Palpatine knew about Padme's pregnancy and knew when to tell Anakin about the Sith Lord's ability to prevent death.

Then one could also assume Vader/Palp did the same to Luke to get him to come to Bespin. Interesting. Could explain why Yoda couldn't sense that future.

It makes perfect sense. He saw Padme would die during childbirth. He just assumed it was due to the childbirth. He didn't see the specifics. That's tough/impposible to do, as Yoda said in ESB"Always in motion, the future is."

Yep, nobody else saw it that way.

Sorry man, didn't mean to steal your thunder.

No thunder stolen.