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Mace Windu - anyone disapointed by him?

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Mace Windu - anyone disapointed by him?

Old 05-22-05, 09:49 AM
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Originally Posted by Brain Stew
Riiiight, that makes a lot of sense .

Hey, it no worse than stupid ass Star Wars fans who say Lucas cast Billy Dee Williams -ONLY- because he was black.
Old 05-22-05, 09:52 AM
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Lucas probably could have played up the bad-ass side of Mace a little more. He was merely in the background of Episode 1. We got to see him in action in 2 (impressive in the arena battle & taking out the prototype for the Clone Troopers with a nifty beheading.) But I do agree that he had a mellowness and had a laid-back personality. We're just not used to seeing that from Sam.

It is finally in Ep. 3 where we see just how important he was to the saga, even if only Anakin & Palpatine know about it. Mace did appear to get the best of Palpatine and could have ended all of the mess if not for Anakin's interference. It was the combination of being overpowered and the recognition of Anakin's presence that drove Palpatine into action/begging mode.

Now, why did the Emperor struggle against Mace yet put up a more impressive showing in his duel with Yoda? I get the impression that in his younger days Yoda was the most powerful of the Jedi. By the time Episode 3 happens, he is past his prime and is slowing down (though still pretty quick, I might add!) He can still hold his own, but he knows that he cannot sustain such a high level of fighting over and extended period.

Mace, however old he was, seemed to be stronger and healthier than Yoda. Thus, at the time of Ep 3, he may have been the only one who was capable of defeating Palpatine. Anakin makes his decision, and the one hope for the good guys is literally out the window. Mace's abilities did reflect Anakin's compliment about him being powerful.
Old 05-22-05, 12:08 PM
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Originally Posted by outcastja
Mace kicked Palpatine's saber away and had him down before Anakin entered the room. So I don't know why he would fake it at that moment unless he could sense Anakin coming.
I think he would know if he was just down the hall, seeing as how he could sense that Anakin was in danger across the galaxy on Volcanotopia later in the movie.
Old 05-22-05, 02:50 PM
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Remember that fear is the path to the Dark Side. When Mace had Palpatine in his sights and was ready to kill him, notice how Palpy cowered and scurried to try to get away before Anakin got there. He may have been able to sense Ani coming, but I think his fear was real. He was afraid to die there. Then once Anakin showed up he thought to use that fear to his advantage to try to sway Anakin to protect him.

Remember, since Anakin was ten years old Palp has been keeping an eye on him, and in the novelization it says that Ani told him things he didn't tell anyone else - he was his confidant, his mentor, in ways that Obi-Wan wasn't because Palpatine didn't judge him, didn't hold him up to Jedi ideals, didn't treat him like he was the "chosen one" etc.

So basically he's just found out that his father figure is evil but he's obviously conflicted about turning him over - he knows it's the right thing to do, but he has a hard time doing it.

When he jumped in his speeder to go to Palpatine's office, do you think it was to help arrest him or to make sure that no harm came to him?
Old 05-22-05, 04:04 PM
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Way back in 1977 Jesse Jackson did critize Lucas for having the only black image being the evil Darth Vader. So in 1980 Billy Dee appears as a leader of a planet and good guy.
That Jesse sure can make things happen.
I can't wait to see what Mexico's President Fox is going to give Jesse after making Jesse upset about the comments Fox made about blacks last week.
Old 05-22-05, 04:07 PM
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Originally Posted by foxdvd
"He was the only one to beat the Emperor. (If Anakin hadn't a suckered him.)"

I got out of this that the Emperor was just playing Anakin. He was to powerful when fighting Yoda to be so weak when fighting Mace..... he knew Anakin was watching, and he let Mace get the upper hand, because he new that Mace would have no choice but to kill him. He played the part as needing Anakin's help, and he knew it would further the half-truths he had already planted in Anakin's mind about the Jedi being just like the sith. If Anakin had not jumped in, the Emperor would have killed Mace or at least got out of it alive.
I don't know... I really don't think the whole "melting my face to the point that I'm a hideous freak" was part of Palpatine's "plan."
Old 05-22-05, 06:36 PM
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Originally Posted by outcastja
Mace kicked Palpatine's saber away and had him down before Anakin entered the room. So I don't know why he would fake it at that moment unless he could sense Anakin coming. If Anakin didn't intervene I think Mace would have killed him, since lightning really didn't work against Mace the first time around. Anakin also mentions in Episode II that Obi-wan was wise as Yoda and as powerful as Master Windu. So it doesn't surprise me that Mace could have taken Palpatine out on his own.
I am going to take a bit of both sides of the argument here. I firmly believe Palpatine was setting up both Mace and Anakin, and probably could sense Anakin would be there soon. However, if Anakin had not gone to side with Palpatine, it would have been a fatal mistake for Palpatine. He gave Mace the upper hand, Mace did not earn it, but Mace still had the upper hand for a minute anyway. If Anakin refused to help, Mace would have been able to use that upper hand and kill the Emperor.

After all, we did actually see this later on, didn't we? Palpatine tried this acting bit later on in Return of the Jedi to try to get Luke to turn to the Dark Side, and he inadvertedly sets himself up to be vulnerable to Anakin while trying to kill Luke. It appears the Emperor is the most vulnerable when he is trying to turn somebody to the Dark Side.
Old 05-22-05, 09:21 PM
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Originally Posted by SuprVgeta
I don't know... I really don't think the whole "melting my face to the point that I'm a hideous freak" was part of Palpatine's "plan."
I'm gonna have to side with this. Solid point.
Old 05-22-05, 09:21 PM
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I don't know, I'd have to say he just plain lost. Lightsaber was gone, lightening wasn't working for him. You noticed that later on Yoda wasn't able to absorb his electricity like he did Dooku's. That's why, with lightsaber gone, Yoda bugged out. He knew he couldn't beat him without the saber. Mace had him dead to rights, and while Palpy had it all planned out and it happend to go according to plan, I think had Anakin been 5 seconds late Mace would have put him down.
Old 05-22-05, 09:36 PM
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I don't think the disfiguring was part of the plan either, but I also don't think that it made him as weak as he appeared to be. He still had a lot of fight left in him, but I still think that inspite that, he could have been killed had Anakin not come to his aide.
Old 05-22-05, 09:45 PM
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Originally Posted by RTorres481
Mace, however old he was, seemed to be stronger and healthier than Yoda. Thus, at the time of Ep 3, he may have been the only one who was capable of defeating Palpatine. Anakin makes his decision, and the one hope for the good guys is literally out the window. Mace's abilities did reflect Anakin's compliment about him being powerful.
If I recall correctly, when Anakin was mentioning Obi-Wan's virtues to Padme in Episode II he said he was "as wise as Master Yoda and as powerful as Master Windu." That always left me with the impression that Mace was the real brawn of the Council whereas Yoda was the brains.

What I do find interesting was that Mace basically turned to the Dark Side (by allowing his rage to get the better of him when he wanted to kill Palpatine instead of arrest him) without anyone really seducing him. And this is the Jedi that seems to be the best when it comes to precognition. He could see all the weakness around him except his own. I actually liked that touch when it came to his character.
Old 05-23-05, 12:49 AM
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I think the thing about being "disfigured" was just Palpy's excuse to the Senate. What really happened is that he had to use his Dark Force power to look like Palpatine and not Sideous, and when he was attacking/defending against Mace Windu he had to use ALL of his power, including that which was holding in all the evil.

That would also explain why he appeared as old craggy Sideous in Eps. 1 and 2 in one scene and then as Palpatine in another. Once the Jedi were gone he didn't NEED to use his force power to make himself appear as Palpatine anymore.
Old 05-24-05, 11:25 AM
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Originally Posted by jough
I think the thing about being "disfigured" was just Palpy's excuse to the Senate. What really happened is that he had to use his Dark Force power to look like Palpatine and not Sideous, and when he was attacking/defending against Mace Windu he had to use ALL of his power, including that which was holding in all the evil.

That would also explain why he appeared as old craggy Sideous in Eps. 1 and 2 in one scene and then as Palpatine in another. Once the Jedi were gone he didn't NEED to use his force power to make himself appear as Palpatine anymore.
I'd buy that theory except that he did not appear old and craggy in Episode I or II. Just look at the scene when he's face to face with Darth Maul, he's clearly normal looking under the hood as he's not even pasty. The same when he spoke to Darth Tyranus. His skin (what little of it we saw anyway) was normal and not pasty. Like it or not, the explination we get is that he either got disfigured by the lighting or having to go full blast with the Dark Side not that he always looked like that and was hiding his "true appearance".
Old 05-24-05, 11:49 AM
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Originally Posted by RocShemp
What I do find interesting was that Mace basically turned to the Dark Side (by allowing his rage to get the better of him when he wanted to kill Palpatine instead of arrest him) without anyone really seducing him. And this is the Jedi that seems to be the best when it comes to precognition. He could see all the weakness around him except his own. I actually liked that touch when it came to his character.
It's funny that you point that out. People who aren't interested in EU should probably stop reading here. :P

I was poking around on Wikipedia and it's got a wealth of compiled Star Wars info from just about every source out there. The entry on Mace is particularly interesting because it's lines up so well with what you saw in the movie. His Vaapad style of lightsaber combat walks a thin line.

Here's his entry:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mace_Windu
Old 05-24-05, 12:03 PM
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That was interesting stuff, thephantom. I guess EU is not as useless as most like to believe. Thanks for the link.
Old 05-24-05, 12:09 PM
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yeah I found it very interesting. Also worth noting, it seems like everyone that Windu trains falls to the dark side sooner or later.
Old 05-24-05, 12:14 PM
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I saw that. I mentioned that all that kept him from turning was his mastery of the light side. Which is what I saw washed away when he was so bloodthirsty towards Sidious. I doubt he would have joined Sidious but he was well on his way to being another Sith at that point in the film.
Old 05-24-05, 01:14 PM
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Isn't it a Jedi's responsibility to destroy the Sith? I mean why would Yoda say that to Obi then?
Old 05-24-05, 01:21 PM
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They should have found a better actor...
Old 05-24-05, 01:30 PM
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As someone stated earlier, I believe it was the lightning coming back at Palpy that gave him his disfiguration, not that he'd been holding the ugly side in. I also believe that Mace got the best of him during their duel, but Palpy recharged himself a bit when Anakin came in and played it up so Anakin would save him. At that point, Palpy saw it was a draw and couldn't defeat Mace on his own (had no saber and force lightning was coming back at himself), so he played to Anakin's emotions for saving Padme to get him to help take Mace out.

As a side note, Sam had said in interviews that he didn't want to go out like no punk. But in my opinion he did just that. He gets his arm taken off with a sucker slice and blown out a window. He should have been able to use the force to control his fall (like Anakin did in AOTC when he jumped out of the speeder), unless that last blast from Palpy took too much out of him (which is what we're suppose to believe.) He would have had a better death scene if it would have played out that he and Anakin dueled and Anakin disarmed him (literally). Of course then Mace would have had to say "It's only a flesh wound!"

Last edited by Star Wars Guy; 05-24-05 at 01:39 PM.
Old 05-24-05, 01:32 PM
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Originally Posted by MJKTool
Isn't it a Jedi's responsibility to destroy the Sith? I mean why would Yoda say that to Obi then?
Killing in the heat of combat is one thing. But killing an unarmed foe goes against the Jedi code.
Old 05-24-05, 01:32 PM
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Supposedly, Mace was the best there is with a Lightsaber (this was from some documentary with Sam Jackson). Therefore, I believe he bested Palpy fair and square.

As far as Yoda getting bested, the fight was mostly even until the Emperor got the high ground and started throwing pods at him. Also, don't forget Yoda was OLD.
Old 05-24-05, 02:50 PM
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Originally Posted by RocShemp
Killing in the heat of combat is one thing. But killing an unarmed foe goes against the Jedi code.
but a jedi is never really unarmed since they, especially the sith, can use the force itself as a weapon
Old 05-24-05, 03:06 PM
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I wish he would have yelled more.
Old 05-24-05, 03:18 PM
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Originally Posted by thephantom
It's funny that you point that out. People who aren't interested in EU should probably stop reading here. :P

I was poking around on Wikipedia and it's got a wealth of compiled Star Wars info from just about every source out there. The entry on Mace is particularly interesting because it's lines up so well with what you saw in the movie. His Vaapad style of lightsaber combat walks a thin line.

Here's his entry:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mace_Windu
... but that's not canon. Sorry, figured I would beat the whiners to it. Anyone ever get sick of seeing/hearing those 3 words?

Anyway, good read. Thanks for the link.

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