Movie Talk A Discussion area for everything movie related including films In The Theaters

Why did Lucas explain the force w/ mitochlrins?

Old 05-13-05, 09:33 AM
  #1  
DVD Talk Special Edition
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Posts: 1,571
Why did Lucas explain the force w/ mitochlrins?

Lets temporarily put aside the question of IF it was a good idea for him to explain it...but why did he - from a story point of view...or philosophical point of view.

Did he do it so that people wouldn't confuse the force with religion - ie. something that you have to put faith in but can't prove.

Did he do it so there was a scientific basis for why (as in our real lives) some people can do things that others can't.

What do you think Lucas would say?
Kube is offline  
Old 05-13-05, 09:50 AM
  #2  
DVD Talk Gold Edition
 
Drop's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Edison, NJ
Posts: 2,037
Two reasons, to show how strong Anakin is with the force, plain as day, and without dispute. The other is because he had this theme of symbiosis, and the midichlorians further developed it.

Personally, the midichlorians take nothing away from the Force. It still is mystical, there is no explanation why it works the way it does, only that we need the midis to do it, and that we can gauge Force strength from it. It's like knowing that there is blood(or it's equivalent) in the Star Wars universe and that some how demystifies the Force. Without blood there could be no Force, for blood is necessary to have life. The Midis are just an extra connection to the Force.
Drop is offline  
Old 05-13-05, 10:36 AM
  #3  
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 62
Wow! Very eloquently put Drop!
UmbrellaAl is offline  
Old 05-13-05, 11:08 AM
  #4  
Retired
 
Join Date: May 1999
Posts: 27,449
Well said Drop. I also like that it should up the "force is god" people.
Josh H is offline  
Old 05-13-05, 11:19 AM
  #5  
DVD Talk Gold Edition
 
Join Date: May 1999
Location: Larryville, GA
Posts: 2,146
I guess he wanted to explain why some people could use the force, and why others were more adept at it. You can't have everyone in the universe running around with force powers.
Cartload is offline  
Old 05-13-05, 12:41 PM
  #6  
DVD Talk Gold Edition
 
Join Date: May 2000
Location: Columbus, OH
Posts: 2,197
Originally Posted by Drop
There is no explanation why it works the way it does, only that we need the midis to do it, and that we can gauge Force strength from it. It's like knowing that there is blood(or it's equivalent) in the Star Wars universe and that some how demystifies the Force. Without blood there could be no Force, for blood is necessary to have life. The Midis are just an extra connection to the Force.
Unfortunately, this creates a major plothole. When Kenobi spoke of Darth Vader, he said, "He's more machine now than man. Twisted and evil." If he's more machine, then how can Darth Vader be so powerful with the force? According to Qui-Gon, you need a healthy supply of blood and midichlorians.

Of course, Qui-Gon's teachings seem to contradict some of Yoda's when Yoda says to Luke, "You must feel the force around you." Then he starts pointing out things between them like "the rock," etc... How does a rock have midichlorians???
rennervision is offline  
Old 05-13-05, 01:00 PM
  #7  
DVD Talk Special Edition
 
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: Up State NY
Posts: 1,886
Originally Posted by rennervision
Unfortunately, this creates a major plothole. When Kenobi spoke of Darth Vader, he said, "He's more machine now than man. Twisted and evil." If he's more machine, then how can Darth Vader be so powerful with the force? According to Qui-Gon, you need a healthy supply of blood and midichlorians.

Of course, Qui-Gon's teachings seem to contradict some of Yoda's when Yoda says to Luke, "You must feel the force around you." Then he starts pointing out things between them like "the rock," etc... How does a rock have midichlorians???
hes not as powerful as he once was because he has half his body.

Last edited by cactusoly; 05-13-05 at 01:42 PM.
cactusoly is offline  
Old 05-13-05, 01:09 PM
  #8  
DVD Talk Legend
 
Join Date: Apr 1999
Location: Docking Bay 94
Posts: 14,259
Originally Posted by rennervision
Unfortunately, this creates a major plothole. When Kenobi spoke of Darth Vader, he said, "He's more machine now than man. Twisted and evil." If he's more machine, then how can Darth Vader be so powerful with the force? According to Qui-Gon, you need a healthy supply of blood and midichlorians.
Vader is only "so powerful" in the OT because there are no other Jedi left. In comparison to the Jedi of the prequel era, he's nothing. We don't see him do anything resembling the cool things that the Jedi can do in the past. And we don't even see him do the cool Sith things (like lightning).

Watching the movies in order, I think it is clearer that the Vader that we've been thinking is cool and bad-ass in the OT is actually a cripple who's on life support. That's one of the neatest things about watching them in order, IMO.
bboisvert is offline  
Old 05-13-05, 02:07 PM
  #9  
Fok
DVD Talk Limited Edition
 
Fok's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Canada, BC
Posts: 6,689
The mitochlrins was a pretty bad idea, if it just left it as it was, then it would of been nice, ie Qui Gon sensing the force in Anakin.
Fok is offline  
Old 05-13-05, 02:37 PM
  #10  
DVD Talk Hero
 
PopcornTreeCt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 25,916
Reading a recent interview with Lucas I got the impression he is not a fan of religion. I think he came up with the midichlorians because he preferred a science-based theme instead of a religious one. My 2 cents.
PopcornTreeCt is offline  
Old 05-13-05, 02:37 PM
  #11  
DVD Talk Platinum Edition
 
Tom Banjo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Auburn, AL
Posts: 3,580
This is the explanation I tell myself to rationalize midichlorians:

The Jedi, as evidenced in the prequels, have lost touch with themselves and the Force. The midichlorians are an example of this. They're trying to scientifically measure something about their beliefs that should be left mystical. Can you imagine how off-base Christianity would get if the Vatican discovered a way to measure a person's faith? Or to measure the % to which a prayer affects an outcome? The midichlorians work perfectly for me because of this, as it just proves in a way how the Jedi have lost their way.

George Lucas may disagree with my interpretation, but it works for me, so I'm sticking to it.
Tom Banjo is offline  
Old 05-13-05, 02:40 PM
  #12  
DVD Talk Gold Edition
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Phoenix AZ - West Side
Posts: 2,262
Originally Posted by rennervision

Of course, Qui-Gon's teachings seem to contradict some of Yoda's when Yoda says to Luke, "You must feel the force around you." Then he starts pointing out things between them like "the rock," etc... How does a rock have midichlorians???
The rock doesn't..nor does the inanimate objects that Vader throws at Luke in ESB. (Or Han Solo's blaster that Vader pulls, or Luke's lightsaber in the ice cave, etc)

BUT..the force flows between all things... allowing you to pick them up and move them. Feel the force...as it 'splashes' up against the rock...or ebbs and flows from one object to another.
BassDude is offline  
Old 05-13-05, 02:57 PM
  #13  
DVD Talk Legend
 
Join Date: Apr 1999
Location: Docking Bay 94
Posts: 14,259
Plus, dude... it's a space rock. It's alive, man... ALIVE!
bboisvert is offline  
Old 05-13-05, 03:02 PM
  #14  
DVD Talk Legend
 
Join Date: Sep 1999
Posts: 11,863
Originally Posted by bboisvert
Vader is only "so powerful" in the OT because there are no other Jedi left. In comparison to the Jedi of the prequel era, he's nothing. We don't see him do anything resembling the cool things that the Jedi can do in the past. And we don't even see him do the cool Sith things (like lightning).

Watching the movies in order, I think it is clearer that the Vader that we've been thinking is cool and bad-ass in the OT is actually a cripple who's on life support. That's one of the neatest things about watching them in order, IMO.
Yep...the whole thing makes sense now...and it explains why Vader never overthrew the Emperor himself...he couldn't...his force power was reduced...and he was a total slave to his suit...a few lightening shots from his master and he is done. In the OT Vader is the last of the known Jedi...and he is the only one really scene using his powers...therefore he is the biggest bad ass in the galaxy.
KnightLerxst is offline  
Old 05-13-05, 03:40 PM
  #15  
DRG
DVD Talk Legend
 
Join Date: Aug 1999
Location: ND
Posts: 13,417
From the script...

ANAKIN : Master, sir...I've been wondering...what are midi-chlorians?
QUI-GON : Midi-chlorians are a microcopic lifeform that reside within all
living cells and communicates with the Force.
ANAKIN : They live inside of me?
QUI-GON : In your cells. We are symbionts with the midi-chlorians.
ANAKIN : Symbionts?
QUI-GON : Life forms living together for mutual advantage. Without the
midi-chlorians, life could not exist, and we would have no knowledge of the
Force. They continually speak to you, telling you the will of the Force.
ANAKIN : They do??
QUI-GON : When you learn to quiet your mind, you will hear them speaking to
you.
ANAKIN : I don't understand.
QUI-GON : With time and training, Annie...you will.

I don't really get where people think the midichlorians 'cause' the Force. I thought the dialogue makes it clear that the Force is still an all-powerful entity.

There are two ways to see it:
1) If there are a lot of midichlorians in his system, then a person is stong in the Force.
2) If a person is strong in the Force, he will have a lot of midichlorians in his system.

It's a matter of cause and effect... if you believe #1, then I can see how you'd think it de-mystifies the whole thing. I tend to believe #2. Now some would say the dialogue above proves that the midichlorians 'cause' the Force in someone. I don't see it that way. If anything, it makes it seem as if they exist to help focus the Force and help people 'see' things... sort of like a sixth sense. Might also explain why Darth Vader never sensed his children until Luke was nearby, whereas Anakin could sense his mother in peril across the galaxy on Tatooine in Ep 2.
DRG is offline  
Old 05-13-05, 03:57 PM
  #16  
DVD Talk Legend
 
Join Date: Sep 1999
Posts: 11,863
You know I never thought of it like that...I guess the mitichlorians are the way a Jedi feels the force...but not uses it...hmmm...interesting.
KnightLerxst is offline  
Old 05-13-05, 05:19 PM
  #17  
DVD Talk Platinum Edition
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: H-Town, TX
Posts: 3,662
The midi-chlorians never bothered me too much(although they were unnecessary) since Ben's conversation with Luke in ROTJ all but implied a connection between genetics and one's ability to use the Force. Why else would the Emperor fear any offspring of Anakin's?
Doughboy is offline  
Old 05-13-05, 06:25 PM
  #18  
DVD Talk Hall of Fame
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Ottawa
Posts: 9,975
I remember reading an article where Lucas said he had become very interested in cells and such somtime between the OT and PT.
BizRodian is offline  
Old 05-13-05, 10:02 PM
  #19  
DVD Talk Special Edition
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: vancouver, WA, USA, Earth, Sol, Milkyway
Posts: 1,028
what is all this crap about vader being weak? gimme a break. Ok, hes lost some limbs and can't live without some machines for life support... so what? Hes still the best star pilot in the galaxy... he still kills Obi-Wan and a bunch o other jedi... and in the end, he kills the emporer (who can apparently fight yoda and live). Luke lost his hand... next movie hes more powerful than he was when it happened... Anakin loses his whole arm in AOTC... next movie he's more powerful than before. I'm not buying the 'lose a limb and your force power flies out like pixie dust' theory... just don't see any evidence supporting it. I mean seriously, can anyone list the times where a Jedi in the star wars films universe gets something chopped off and becomes weaker with the force? If anything, it seems the opposite is true.

j
jekbrown is offline  
Old 05-13-05, 10:22 PM
  #20  
DVD Talk Legend
 
Join Date: Apr 1999
Location: Docking Bay 94
Posts: 14,259
Originally Posted by jekbrown
he still kills Obi-Wan and a bunch o other jedi... and in the end, he kills the emporer (who can apparently fight yoda and live).
1. Obi-Wan sacrifices himself. Vader only 'kills' him from a certain point of view.

2. I must have missed the scene where he's in the suit and kills "a bunch o other jedi". Where was that again?

3. He sneaks up on the Emperor from behind, at a time he wasn't expecting it, and quickly tosses him down a shaft. And then pretty much immediately dies because of the damage to his suit. If he had fought Palpatine face-to-face, I suspect he would have gotten his ass handed to him in about 30 seconds.


I'm not saying that Vader is 'weak'. But he certainly doesn't show any of the Force abilities and acrobatics that we see in the prequels. Even Luke can dance around him pretty easily in RotJ. He's a shadow of the Anakin we see in Ep. II+III.
bboisvert is offline  
Old 05-13-05, 10:23 PM
  #21  
Retired
 
Join Date: May 1999
Posts: 27,449
Vader was defintely weaker. That's why he never over threw the emperor, and that's why he was defeated by Luke who wasn't nearly as skilled as the Jedi in the prequels.

He was slower, couldn't use force lighting, etc. He just had basic force powers (throwing objects, force choke etc.). Still a badass compared to non-jedi, but not nearly as powerful as his original "chosen one" self.
Josh H is offline  
Old 05-14-05, 12:00 AM
  #22  
DVD Talk Special Edition
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: vancouver, WA, USA, Earth, Sol, Milkyway
Posts: 1,028
Originally Posted by bboisvert
1. Obi-Wan sacrifices himself. Vader only 'kills' him from a certain point of view.
meh, I ain't buying the sacrifice thing... in theory he lets vader kill him so luke can escape... but I ain't buyin it. When do the good guys stand a better chance of escaping and eventually beating the empire... with vader dead (cause after all, he's weak in the suit, obi wan could kill him right?) and then obi wan coming out of that room they were fighting in and smacking down all the storm troopers in that room by himself (blasters ain't gonna stop him) or by letting himself get killed... the storm troopers live... allowing vader to coordinate their capture / rule the galaxy / crush the rebellion etc etc etc. I'm sorry, I know lucas was trying for the sacrifice angle, but it just doesn't make any sense whatsoever. None, zero, nadda zilch.

2. I must have missed the scene where he's in the suit and kills "a bunch o other jedi". Where was that again?
Anakin doesn't kill any jedi when whole... after he loses his arm he does. Again, if all the force pixie dust flies out when losing a limb, he should be beatable.

3. He sneaks up on the Emperor from behind, at a time he wasn't expecting it, and quickly tosses him down a shaft.
The emporer has force powers... it doesn't seem to follow that just falling down a shaft should kill him. I mean, guys with the force can levitate objects with ease and can defy gravity like crazy, why can the emporer, who obviously has MAD force skills be killed by falling? IMO, when vader grabbed him, it was a I'm-not-just-grabbing-you-cloak...my-hand-is-wrapped-around-your-spinal-column type of grab. That makes much more sense to me... and if that is the case then Vader did kill the emporer... sneak attack or not.

And then pretty much immediately dies because of the damage to his suit. If he had fought Palpatine face-to-face, I suspect he would have gotten his ass handed to him in about 30 seconds.
hard to say, when he kills the emporer his suit is damaged and he dies, no question, but if I remember correctly vader has no light saber at that point... if he had, maybe he just would have chopped the emporer in half and partied with the ewoks at the end? The emporer commands Vader, there is no question about that... but that has nothing to do with who would win in a fight. Pretty much any US Marine captain could kick the crap out of any marine general... but they don't, they do the generals bidding.

I'm not saying that Vader is 'weak'. But he certainly doesn't show any of the Force abilities and acrobatics that we see in the prequels. Even Luke can dance around him pretty easily in RotJ. He's a shadow of the Anakin we see in Ep. II+III.
no one does prequel-style acrobatics in IV-VI... obi wan and yoda are masters and are "whole", but they don't do any crazy flips. IMO this has more to do with modern advances in the style of action sequences than anything else.

I agree that Vader in ROTJ is weaker than Anakin in II (and I assume 3), I'm just saying I don't think it has as much to do with losing (a) limb(s) as some people are suggesting. Vader is obviously conflicted at the end of ROTJ.... "it is to late for me, son". IMO, Luke was right... vader didn't want to destroy him... and his inner conflict between light/dark sides of the force, combined with Luke basically using the dark side in his rage, is the reason Vader is weakened to the point where luke can beat him down. Full-on dark side pist off Vader was practically unstopable... conflicted Vader fighting an opponent he didn't really want to destroy wasn't.

j
jekbrown is offline  
Old 05-14-05, 01:59 AM
  #23  
Member
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: L.A.
Posts: 189
I remembered being bothered by the fact Jedi's were predestined through heredity. As if Anakin, Luke, and Leia are some type of "royal" lineage. Very Un-American and goes against my personal democratic ideals.

Luke wasn't tested over and over. Luke didn't become a hero because he accomplished great feats despite the odds. Nay. He was predestined.

But, because of that Star Wars has that mythic quality. The Skywalkers are touched by "the gods" and maybe even protected by them. The same way in LOTR, the Baggins's Bilbo and Frodo and even Gollum were somehow chosen to possess the Ring and each have a hand in destroying it. Their destinies were all preordained and intertwined.

Lucas against "religion"? I doubt it. Lucas was highly influenced by Joseph Campbell when he made the OT. Campbell's books are all about religions/myths and why people of all societies need and benefit from them. The Midi-Chlorians kinda takes the myticism and magic out of the Force. Plain and simple. The Force shouldn't be able to be reduced mathematically or scientifically. The Force like religion and myths should have retained that sense of the unknowable. Like God. Or some pagan religion.

Last edited by IanH; 05-14-05 at 02:10 AM.
IanH is offline  
Old 05-14-05, 02:21 AM
  #24  
DVD Talk Ultimate Edition
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Carrollton, Ga
Posts: 4,809
The Force like religion and myths should have retained that sense of the unknowable.
But I think it still does. I don't believe midichlorians de-mystifies the force because Drop puts it perfectly. Midichlorians doesn't explain how the force works nor does it explain the way it works. It also doesn't explain why those strong in the force have a higher concentrations, just that they do. It's just the connection to force.
Terrell is offline  
Old 05-14-05, 02:43 AM
  #25  
Member
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: L.A.
Posts: 189
Originally Posted by Terrell
Midichlorians doesn't explain how the force works nor does it explain the way it works. It also doesn't explain why those strong in the force have a higher concentrations, just that they do. It's just the connection to force.
Its the fact that the Force has been reduced to the tangible whereas in most religions and myths spirit, faith, prayer, etc have always been intangible. Its now become "trapped" into a specific place and time whereas all myths/religion have always seemed to be about transcending them. That's the mystical part.

That's why this hokey religion had a certain poetry to it when Yoda explained that The Force flows "through you" and not "within you".

"Not in this crude matter" as Yoda touched Luke's arm.

Sigh. ESB had it right.

Last edited by IanH; 05-14-05 at 02:55 AM.
IanH is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Archive Advertising Cookie Policy Privacy Statement Terms of Service

Copyright 2018 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.