ST: Generations Plot Hole? Spoilers!!!!
 

Spoiler Ahead!!!!

OK, I watched Star Trek: Generations last night for the first time in a few years. I remember liking the movie quite a bit but one things struck me as odd this time around. Maybe I missed something but I was hoping someone here could help me.

In the beginning of the movie, two character (along with others) are saved from the ship in the Nexus. These characters are Zorin the villian and Whoopi Goldberg's character. They seem to be around the ages of the actors playing them.

Well, the movie jumps some 70 years in the future and Zorin and the Whoopi Goldberg character are still around. Zorin has been trying to get back into the Nexus and Whoopi has ended up as the Enterprise bartender or something.

The problem is that they have not aged at all!!! I would understand if it was just a few years but 70 years!!! Did I miss something or is this just a major plot inconsistency/hole?

That was the only main plot hole I saw. Of course timing the Nexus ribbon trajectory by launching a missile at the sun was a little far fetched but I could suspend disbelief on that one.

Re: ST: Generations Plot Hole? Spoilers!!!!
 

I assume you bought the new special edition DVD? Listen to the writer commentary. They don't address your question, but the two writers admit they made a lot of mistakes in the film.


But space ships and lasers are easily swallowable?

<i>This</i> was the "plot hole" you found? Soran and Guinan are El-Aurians. Their lifespan is many centuries (I believe Guinan is over 700 years old during <i>TNG</i>) and they have a unique relationship with the space-time continuum. If you're bothered by <b>Generations</b>, have a look at 'Time's Arrow'.

das

New Techonologies are fine because it is Science Fiction.

But, his idea was to destroy the Star so the removal of its graviational force would change the direction of the Nexus.

Well, turns out he only the destroyed the star minutes before the ribbon arrived so how could the ribbon's trajectory have been changed enough. We don't even know if the removal of the graviational force would have been felt yet. Heck, the shock force had not even arrived yet.

Also, the precision and timing would have needed to be very high because the ribbon was narrow enough to grab Zorin but not the Star Trek: TNG crew which had crash landed not too far away.

I guess its the impossibility of the timing and the disregard of the age difference that I thought was bad

I think the bigger plot hole would be why didn't he just pilot a small ship into the Nexus to begin with? Why destroy a sun and all these other planets? He obviously knew where the ribbon was heading, why not hire a shuttlecraft and fly head on into it?

Because there is nothing "evil" or bad guy-ish about hiring a shuttle.

Because the ship could be destroyed by the spatial disruptions before ever reaching the actual Nexus, and it wouldn't be very effective if he were dead.

Come on. You can do better than this ...

das

OK, then...Spacesuit! Pilot the shuttle close enough, then jump out in a spacesuit. There didn't seem to be any spatial disruptions when he was on the planet.

Thanks for the info about El-Aurians. That is exactly what I was looking for. I figured there was something about the Star Trek Universe that I did not know that answered that issue.

Another plot problem,

If Picard could leave the Nexus at any time, why didn't he leave it when the Enterprise first transported Zorin from the destroyed ship. He could have immediately imprisoned Zorin when he boarded the ship. Picard could have saved 2 start systems this way instead of just the one.

Or, he could have come out a month or two before that and warned he nephew about the possibility of dying in a fire.

Just goes to show you that when you bring time-travel into the plot you better show some restraint or provide a lot of constraints or you can get a mess.

I still think 12 Monkeys is the best Time Travel movie there is. Of course I believe you can only go forward in time. This going back in time is nonsense. If it was possible, people from the future would be back here now improving our life.

Bah. Everyone is still in the nexus to begin with. Every movie after Generations doesn't really happen.

Same problem. Getting a shuttle "close enough" is dangerous, because any number of things could destroy it before "close enough" status was reached, but let's say it happened anyway, and he jumped out in a spacesuit. He's not massive enough to avoid disruptions caused by the outer regions of the Nexus. He could easily be catapulted off into space. That's no fun.

The planet wasn't affected because it was a massive body, unlike a shuttle or spacesuit.

das

Futz around in the timeline for personal gain? That's Janeway's job. Picard picked the least intrusive moment to cause the least damage to the timeline.

das

I don't think that saving an entire star system (the first one) would be personal gain.

Let's examine this even more. I have a question about this Nexus. When the individual leaves the Nexus like in the case of Picard, is he as old as when he went in? I guess that is true based on what happened to Kirk. So could Picard have left the Nexus to a time when he was a child and watched himself grow up? or would he have reverted to that age and been able to relive his life with all the knowledge of his many years as a captain aboard the enterprise?

Listen, I love Star Trek, and I really enjoyed this movie. I think the plot devices they used (time travel, star systems blowing up) really gave the movie an epic feel that I much liked. I am just stating that you need to be careful with time-travel because it opens up a can or worms and forces the audience to suspend disbelief.

But then again, I love time-travel movies so go figure.

Time travel is a terrible plot device used as a crutch by weak writers. I won't disagree with you there. I'm just pointing out the "logic" behind the choices made in this particular film.

das

The following was an actual conversation between myself and Brannon Braga.

Brannon: So what did you think about Generations?
Me: Truthfully? It sucked. They're still in the nexus.
Brannon: Fuck you. But you're right.

;)

I said that when the movie was first released theatrically and my friends said I was crazy. How can that be when from what we learn throughout the movie the only way out of the Nexus is to be pulled out of it (like what happened with the crew at the beginning of the movie)? The Nexus takes you to what you want to see and experience. Not reality.

Frankly, the crew is dead and Picard in the Nexus. You see them get blowed up good when he's taken by the ribbon.

You <i>can</i> leave the Nexus willingly; people just don't choose to, because it kicks ass and stuff. Picard chose to. Of course, a part of him is still there -- an echo -- or some bullshit, I guess.

das

I think he never left and is actually still there, living out his days as captain of the Enterprise, because that is, in reality, his ideal nexus existence.

I would like to see an "elseworlds" or "what if" type story told where Picard actually never came out of the Nexus and is in fact still there (and will stay there because nobody else can figure it out, or is trying to) and the Enterprise remains destroyed. What effect would it have had on the Dominion War? Perhaps Picard's evil clone would have claimed to be Picard from the Nexus and taken over Starfleet Command?

Now wait a minute.. Picard is in a nexus of the nexus. End of story. Everyone else is dead. :p

I'm doing my best to ignore that Generations actually happened. It's my own personal Nexus existence. :)

I believe you mean "gravimetric distortions". -ohbfrank-




;)

All of these other nitpicks I can deal with. The biggest plot hole in Generations, IMO, is the opening scene. A bottle of Dom Perignon floating in space would not only be frozen solid, but it would have popped its cork due to the extreme pressure difference. :D

1. Alex the Droog could've put on a space suit, and then beamed himself directly into the Nexus. Unless there was Positronized Gravometric interference that would've unstabilized the transporter's compression matrix.

2. I also don't see why couldn't have just flown a small shuttle into it, instead of trying to destroy a sun or ram Captain Cameron's Enterprise into it.

3. How do you destroy a sun with a single missile? Even if that tinyu missile wasn't destroyed before it reached the sun, I'm sure that whatever it did to the sun that destroyed it would take more than the couple of seconds we saw in the movie. Never mind that it would take about nine minutes to even know something happened to the sun from the planet's surface.

4. If the Nexus exists outside of our time as was shown in the movie, then Kirk, Picard, and Guinan are still in it, aren't they?

5. And Picard picked a shit time for he and Kirk to come out of it, didn't he? And shouldn't there have been two Picards there, anyway? If he went back in time before he went into the Nexus, he should've been there already. And then we'd have two Picards running around because they prevented the Nexus from destroying the planet, so the original Picard wouldn't have had anywhere to go.

Or maybe Berman and Braga are just dipshits.

Ding ding ding!

Well, you'd have to include Ronald D. Moore, too. :p

Come on - you cant get the transporters to work right under the BEST of conditions. An ion storm, sunspots, mice in the wiring - any NUMBER of things knock out the transporters on a regular basis (or cause people to jump back in time, cross dimensions, get split into two, become fused with the deckplates, etc, etc)

How the hell do you expect it to work under extreme conditions like the Nexus.

This is Star Trek we're talking about. Questioning any of this is folly.

But how did Kirk get into it... umm... a... ship..

How did Soran get into it the first time... ummm.. a.. ship :P

;)

I really do find it hilarious that someone started this thread though, that the age thing is a plot hole. That just kicks so much ass that someone actually posted that when there's so much else to choose from.

Generations is actually my favourite of the TNG films... I think it was crappy in parts (normally the parts other Trek fans think are the only good parts, but whatever :)) but I think it is the most movie like of any of TNG movies. The rest seem like season premires with a bigger budget.

I like First Contact too, but I'm mad at it because B&B tried to imitate it's sucess so many times, without realising the real reasons Star Trek fans liked it :)

Yeah, but it was dangerous and a fluke. Sure, <i>some</i> people made it, but a bunch of people died too. If you were an obsessed evil genius prone to "Singin' in the Rain" while kicking ass, wouldn't you minimize personal risk?

Come on ... you guys are failing miserably here. :p

das

No no, I agree with you... the best way is obviously using a planet.

It's just really funny that it's also the way the characters got there the first time :)

I dunno ... I'd have used a ship.

das

;)

Gah! Well, it's kind of like this... a ship would give you a good chance of getting in I think. It's how he got in before... but shit, the Nexis kicks ass and stuff right... a planet would be a little better. But damnit, to get the planet thing working, you have to work with Klingons and blow up suns and shit... that stuff takes a LONG time and it's kind of hard. I guess if Soran was a bit lazier, then he'd have just used a ship.

Curious though, what are your thoughts on the movie? what did you like and dislike?

Why do I have a feeling I'll be picking this up next time I go to Best Buy? *sigh*

That's no fun. I'd rather sit back and nitpick the nitpicks.

Honestly, I enjoyed it. It was a crazy task trying to link the two series, and they did a passable job. Not great but not terrible. I liked the way Kirk died "alone" like he "always knew" and yet not <i>really</i> alone. It's in the bottom half, but I enjoy watching it.

das

Ah ha, we agree on the Kirk death thing. So many people hate that. A lot of people thought he needed a grand death like Spock had. Most warriors die in "unimpressive" ways, and never in "glory." Kirk died, alone, without anyone knowing about it, saving a planet full of people who will never know his name. He is buried in a grave that no one will visit.

Yep, and no speechifying either ... as it should be.

Besides, Kirk can't die if Spock and Bones are around. "I've always known I'll die alone." I mean, it even rhymes!

das

Most deaths in the good modern Trek are not of the "grand" sort though, I've noticed. Unimpressive, sudden, pointless, alone...

I like it because it's not cliche. Not everyone gets a grand death.

The problem (ONE of the problems) with the movie is not so much what it does internaly, but what it does to the rest of the continuity.

Consider this: Whoopie's people get wiped out by the Borg, which is why she has such a negitive reaction in the first Next Gen episode with them.

But now, we find out that she (and all her people) have been hanging around for 70+ years after being pulled from the Nexus.

So, dont you think SOMETIME, in those 70-ish years, that someone in the federation might debrief these people? That someone in the survivors might say "Hey, you know - there's this race of unstoppible aliens that destroy every race the come into contact with. You might want to look out for them!"

Bah - whatever. I hate the series now with a passion.

Yes, ESPECIALLY when you have the Federation directly aiding the refugees. You would think that they'd like to know what these people were running from...

It's been established (back in S2 of TNG) from the beginning that Guinan knew about the Borg... under certain circumstances I could understand the Federation not knowing about them... but what was shown in Generations just makes no sense at all.

Why would nobody know about Kirk? I'm sure Picard will put Kirk in his report. It seems Kirk is famous enough that everyone in Picard's time knows who he is. While most people wouldn't go out to some out-of-the-way planet to see Kirk's gave, any of Kirk's crew members still alive would probably visit it to give the good-bye they never got to do earlier.