I still believe to this day that ESB is the best Star Wars flick.

I've noticed a trend in this forum: somebody likes a particular film, and it is bashed by critics...so they defend it by pointing to an older film that is now considered a "classic," but they claim that critics panned that movie too.

Of course, if you do the research, often they're playing hard and loose with the facts. Not that it matters. Just because Movie A was initially panned but is now loved doesn't mean Movie B which just came out and was panned will someday be loved.

Most films that are initially disliked by critics are forgotten in the mists of time. A few become camp favorites, but hardly any go on to become "classics."

Saying ESB was hated like TPM was is a bit of a stretch, however, you must think about a few other things.

ESB was very different from ANH. VERY different. ANH was full of space battles and aliens. ESB was not like this. The tone was very different too. Using a puppet/muppet as a main character was NOT common place back then, though it's more common today.

Some people were disapointed at the time because of this. Maybe that's why RTOJ is a lot more like ANH.

Does that mean critics hated ESB? no.

In fact, what I said has very little to do with that. But it is something neat to think about.

It's A Wonderful Life was panned by the critics when it was released.

Does that mean my grandchildren are going to have to watch Catwoman every Xmas Eve?

one reason that ESB was so well recieved, especially from critics was that it wasn't following the structural paradigm of Star Wars.
beyond the fact that it was technically well produced it was something new.
it took the characters to new places both geographically as well as emotionally.
it didn't merely rehash the
1) get together to save one character
2) then launch another space assault on another big satelite and blow it up before the curtain closes.

it doesn't surprise me that Empire was so well recieved, what surprised me was how many people were happy to accept the film that came after it as something substantial when it was just a blatant, uninspired retread of both previous instalments.
that was the sequel most people were probably expecting to Star Wars- the same old, same old w/ a few new & different accessories to misdirect your attention.
they just got it three yrs later.

Must of been your local paper then,i was in my 20's when empire came out and i remember that it was pretty much universaly praised as a great movie by critics,now this does not mean every critic on earth thought it was a great movie,its just that an overwhelmingly amount of them did. I remember when Raiders of the lost arc came out every critic said it was great,but i remember reading a magazine in which a movie critic said it was an awful movie,worst one he had ever seen

Not universally, not in the same way as Catwoman. Plus, it was nominated for Best Picture that year.

My favorite pick for a film that was initially hated by everybody (critics and audiences alike), but is now considered a classic is Duck Soup. But again, films like that are exceptions...not the rule.

A little off subject, when ROTJ was released in 1983 I remember a 1/2 special on S&E. Both of them really didn't like this film. So much for taste.

A lot of people didn't/don't like ROTJ.

BULLS**T!!!

Yes, they generally received good reviews, but the most critically praised of the original SW films was none other than Star Wars: A New Hope. Neither Empire or Jedi received the level of praise the original did. That is a fact.

You can complain about how there were never critics that panned the films and then changed their mind years and years later, but it is absolutely true. There were quite a few critics that panned the films, only to change their reviews. In fact, the original films are far, far better reviewed now than they originally were. Yes, they were well received originally. But now they're received far better than even then.

Yes, and those people are in the extreme minority. Even those critics are in the extreme minority now. Go look it up on rottentomatoes.com. It's reviewed far better now than it originally was. But still, minority is the key word.

I could see why Duck Soup would get panned. No plot, no development, no structure. The film is nothing but gag after gag after gag. However, they happened to be some of the funniest gags ever put on film. The critics were probably just afraid to admit they liked something that was so "low art."

ESB is the one Star Wars film that gets unconditionally lauded by critics. For the others ones, they might like it, but usually add some kind of thing like "It's good...for a film of this type." ESB, however, just gets the good reviews without the critic making apologies.

Yeah, but the problem with Duck Soup is that there's no annual tradition about watching it, so that wouldn't have worked for my, y'know... joke.

Yet. There's no annual tradition of watching it...yet.

Just you wait, when they make Gremlins 3, it'll be Duck Soup on all the TVs.

Riv, I love you, but what has this comment got to do with the topic? At all?

ROTJ is considered by most as the weakest of the OT. And yes I remember it receiving more negative reviews than the other two.

And here lies the problem. While ROTJ may be YOUR least favorite, it is clearly not "considered by most" to be the weakest of the three. I am sure most casual movie fans loved ROTJ, and two of the most indellible marks the SW trilogy has made are the Ewoks and Jabba the Hutt. Most people in my family and friends would choose ROTJ as the one SW film to watch. It has the most modern effects of the three, and a very easy to follow good vs. evil story, a character redemption and lots of stuff gettin blowed up real good. While I like ESB since it is more character driven, I am usually in the minority.

On these boards we have a tendency to project our own opinions as the opinion of the masses. Sometimes we need to stand back and look at the big picture. To most people movies are a diversion, and a fun night out. We here are the obsessive film fans. Our opinions are not necessarily the opinions of the masses.

I will rephrase...it is considered the weakest by everyone I know that has an opnion on it as well as MOST critics. Is that a little better?

Sorry but alot of fans in my age bracket thought the ewoks were plain nonsense...and the film over all had what is known as the puppet syndrome. It was IMO the weakest story of the three, it did not even have the best light saber duel in it. That honor goes to the Empire Strikes Back. Han Solo in ROTJ? What did he do? Nothing would be the answer on that one.

I would like to point something out about The Empire Strikes Back that most people are probably reluctant to admit. (Keep in mind, I think the movie is great and I'm by no means trying to put it down.)

There is one reason why everyone considers it the best Star Wars movie of all time. And that reason is Return of the Jedi. That's right. The most loathed of the original trilogy is what makes Empire so great.

Can you imagine a world where there never was a Return of the Jedi? To this day, people would be on the internet talking about how awful TESB was. There would be posts like:

"Ummmm... what was with that ending?"

"So I guess Han is frozen forever in carbonite???"

"THE EMPIRE STRIKES BACK sucked donkey balls!!!"

By completing the trilogy, ROTJ with its dancing Ewoks, Boba Fett screaming, and Leia suddenly turning into Luke's sister actually propels TESB to a pedestal above the first Star Wars.

<sarcasm>I wonder which movie Ms. Manners actually saw considering twice in her review she mentions the movie as if it's set in the future. I guess she missed the opening where it states "A long time ago...."</sarcasm>

... and that's exactly what you're doing, Qui. Return Of The Jedi is seen by most as the weakest of the three films.

He apparently gained seven pounds while he was frozen in carbonite.

i don't agree with that at all.
#1)Empire had the ingredients to spark your imagination- i suppose i should just speak for myself, but i left the theater with my head spinning trying to conceptualize all the avenues this material could take in its wrap up.
#2) it had some of the best, brain chewable, dramatic moments in any of the films: the Vader/Luke duel from the opening "the force is with you young skywalker..." to Lukes soundless self sacrifical leap into the abyss...that was just incomparable storytelling
#3) the characters progressed- at the end of the film you saw characters that had seemed to fundementally change their emotional make-ups
Luke, Leia, Han before he's frozen, and even Lando are not the same people at the end that they are when we first meet them in the film- and the change (unlike some of the changes found in Jedi) is not arbitrary or just done because the plot demands it- you can witness them organically evolve thru the events of the film.


that last point is what i find to be one of the most debilitating qualities inherent in Jedi.
take Luke at the begining of the film- why is he so cocky after everything that he went thru physically and emotionally prior to arriving back on his 'homeworld'?
he just suffered a major ass-kicking and was handed a life altering revelation and yet Jedi needs to open with a good 'heroic' set piece in the first act so that what the characters is trotted out to accomplish.
you are no longer watching a flesh and blood character here, you are watching an action figure being moved around a playset.

i'm sure a lot of people still love the film.
but i know a lot of people that still hate and don't understand why MAR - full frame presentations of movies are an abomination.

I don't think that's true at all. Sure, ROTJ has its flaws, and it's considered the weakest of the three, but it's by no means a terrible film. And ESB isn't good in comparison, it's just good, period. Had ROTJ not had Ewoks and Boba Fett dying, and made more sense dramatically, ESB would still be considered a great film. ROTJ might have also been considered great, but it wouldn't have diminished ESB. And had there been no third film at all, people wouldn't bash ESB, they would bash Lucas or Fox for not making the third film that ESB had obviously set up.

I never said it was a bad film, I just stated I felt it was the weakest of the three.

Han Solo did nothing....

The way Fett died was pretty lame.

Ewoks.....wow...terrible.

Too many damn puppets...

Go back and look at the first two films....mostly human...

Then muppets took over..

But its still better than the silly prequels so far...

I was actually responding to rennervision, not you. I don't argue that ROTJ has flaws. But rennervision's point seemed to be that people only liked ESB because ROTJ was "bad." I was arguing against that fallacy.