James Caviezel appreciation thread
02-27-04, 08:50 AM
#26
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"And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me." -- Matt. 25: 40
Jim Caviezel was the homeless man that Haley Joel Osment befriended in Pay It Forward... was that foreshadowing?
Jim Caviezel was the homeless man that Haley Joel Osment befriended in Pay It Forward... was that foreshadowing?
02-27-04, 09:11 AM
#27
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Originally posted by jarofclay73
Actually, the cross didn't kill him. Remember when he said, "It is accomplished." Then he says something like "Into your hands I commend my Spirit." He CHOSE to die, in a sense. I know that sounds weird. There were many times in the movie (and the Bible) that Jesus could have avoided death if he just denied who he was. He was all too willing to be arrested while his disciples ran away. Jesus knew he had to die. And, for some reason, he had to die on the cross. Jesus is fully human but yet fully God. So, he can bleed like a human but he can also walk on water. So, it's not inconceivable that Jesus kept himself alive until he was on the cross. This is just my take. This isn't popular theology.
Actually, the cross didn't kill him. Remember when he said, "It is accomplished." Then he says something like "Into your hands I commend my Spirit." He CHOSE to die, in a sense. I know that sounds weird. There were many times in the movie (and the Bible) that Jesus could have avoided death if he just denied who he was. He was all too willing to be arrested while his disciples ran away. Jesus knew he had to die. And, for some reason, he had to die on the cross. Jesus is fully human but yet fully God. So, he can bleed like a human but he can also walk on water. So, it's not inconceivable that Jesus kept himself alive until he was on the cross. This is just my take. This isn't popular theology.
I also have to wonder how the "why hast thou forsaken me" line fits in if Jesus knew every second what he was doing. He knew he wasn't forsaken but that he was doing exactly what was necessary and should have been overjoyed by it all in his mind, not lamenting. Was he putting on a show?
I don't know, it seems to me believers don't want it one way or even both ways but every which way.
02-27-04, 09:26 AM
#28
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Originally posted by movielib
I just don't get this at all (maybe it's my obstinate atheism and rationalism). If Jesus could choose when to die (or to have not died at all when on the cross) when in his human persona then he could also have chosen to have been able to keep on carrying the cross (or ten crosses for that matter) or to have not felt any pain or whatever. At the very least he knew the physical torment was temporary (and as much physical pain as might have been involved, many mere mortals endured as much or more in human history and all without the assurance they would be god again after it was over) and it would end and he would be all god again. It seems to diminish the "sacrifice" to more or less of a blip in god's eternal existence in my view.
I also have to wonder how the "why hast thou forsaken me" line fits in if Jesus knew every second what he was doing. He knew he wasn't forsaken but that he was doing exactly what was necessary and should have been overjoyed by it all in his mind, not lamenting. Was he putting on a show?
I don't know, it seems to me believers don't want it one way or even both ways but every which way.
I just don't get this at all (maybe it's my obstinate atheism and rationalism). If Jesus could choose when to die (or to have not died at all when on the cross) when in his human persona then he could also have chosen to have been able to keep on carrying the cross (or ten crosses for that matter) or to have not felt any pain or whatever. At the very least he knew the physical torment was temporary (and as much physical pain as might have been involved, many mere mortals endured as much or more in human history and all without the assurance they would be god again after it was over) and it would end and he would be all god again. It seems to diminish the "sacrifice" to more or less of a blip in god's eternal existence in my view.
I also have to wonder how the "why hast thou forsaken me" line fits in if Jesus knew every second what he was doing. He knew he wasn't forsaken but that he was doing exactly what was necessary and should have been overjoyed by it all in his mind, not lamenting. Was he putting on a show?
I don't know, it seems to me believers don't want it one way or even both ways but every which way.
It all goes back to choice... Jesus could have done everything you said. He could have carried the cross without assitance, but chose not to exercise his power and authority to do so. He could have numbed the pain, but chose not to. He could have called 10,000 angels to come down and smote those Romans right good, but he chose not to. He could have hung on the cross forever, but he chose not to.
So in essense then he died as a result of being crucified, but only because he chose not to use his power and authority not to prevent the human consequences from occuring. As stated, he was fully capable of exercising his "God-powers" to perform miracles (ie. superhuman actions). But because he knew the plan, he forebore his rights and powers to become the human sacrifice once and for all...
As for the "Why hast thou foresaken me" line. Jesus knew the plan, knew the cost, and knew the end resolution to be sought (ie. he knew he would rise from the grave in 3 days). However, for a God-man who had been in complete communion with God the Father, that first moment when God had to turn his back on his Son who was now sin, must have been quite a shock even with Jesus knowing this must happen.... I imagine it is akin to the phantom appendage most amputees still say they can feel and/or miss despite knowing full well it is gone....
02-27-04, 09:47 AM
#29
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Originally posted by wlmowery
I think part of it is due to your rationality....
I think part of it is due to your rationality....
It all goes back to choice... Jesus could have done everything you said. He could have carried the cross without assitance, but chose not to exercise his power and authority to do so. He could have numbed the pain, but chose not to. He could have called 10,000 angels to come down and smote those Romans right good, but he chose not to. He could have hung on the cross forever, but he chose not to.
So in essense then he died as a result of being crucified, but only because he chose not to use his power and authority not to prevent the human consequences from occuring. As stated, he was fully capable of exercising his "God-powers" to perform miracles (ie. superhuman actions). But because he knew the plan, he forebore his rights and powers to become the human sacrifice once and for all...
As for the "Why hast thou foresaken me" line. Jesus knew the plan, knew the cost, and knew the end resolution to be sought (ie. he knew he would rise from the grave in 3 days). However, for a God-man who had been in complete communion with God the Father, that first moment when God had to turn his back on his Son who was now sin, must have been quite a shock even with Jesus knowing this must happen.... I imagine it is akin to the phantom appendage most amputees still say they can feel and/or miss despite knowing full well it is gone....
So in essense then he died as a result of being crucified, but only because he chose not to use his power and authority not to prevent the human consequences from occuring. As stated, he was fully capable of exercising his "God-powers" to perform miracles (ie. superhuman actions). But because he knew the plan, he forebore his rights and powers to become the human sacrifice once and for all...
As for the "Why hast thou foresaken me" line. Jesus knew the plan, knew the cost, and knew the end resolution to be sought (ie. he knew he would rise from the grave in 3 days). However, for a God-man who had been in complete communion with God the Father, that first moment when God had to turn his back on his Son who was now sin, must have been quite a shock even with Jesus knowing this must happen.... I imagine it is akin to the phantom appendage most amputees still say they can feel and/or miss despite knowing full well it is gone....
02-27-04, 09:51 AM
#30
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Originally posted by movielib
I thought that stuff was excessive to the point of becoming cartoonish. For me, it lost any impact it might otherwise have had. I really do not see how he could have survived the second round of beating from the Romans, let alone being able to carry that entire cross a single step afterwards
I thought Mel blew this movie bigtime and maybe that's just me (well, I know my wife felt exactly the same way). I think Mel blew this entire movie bigtime in many ways but I realize many, many people completely disagree with me.
I thought that stuff was excessive to the point of becoming cartoonish. For me, it lost any impact it might otherwise have had. I really do not see how he could have survived the second round of beating from the Romans, let alone being able to carry that entire cross a single step afterwards
I thought Mel blew this movie bigtime and maybe that's just me (well, I know my wife felt exactly the same way). I think Mel blew this entire movie bigtime in many ways but I realize many, many people completely disagree with me.
Those scourged were often killed on accident - the goal was to make them "almost dead" or "half dead". Eyewitnesses from the first and second century describe entrails being exposed by the scourging as people were carrying their crossbeams to finish up.
Often, victims would pass out in a few minutes, and the Lictons would check their pulse and breathing, and continue the beating to get the minimum 40 lashes in.
It was brutal brutal stuff. But it's how it was. You'd be surprised what the human body can endure, especially in a state of shock.
02-27-04, 09:53 AM
#31
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Originally posted by movielib
Which I can never see giving up as it is as much a part of me as any physical body part.
Before we just agree to disagree, you did not address the magnitude of the "sacrifice," especially given Jesus's foreknowledge. I would be certain that at least some mere mortals would choose to perform this "sacrifice' if they could be assured humanity could be "saved" if they just endured a finite amount of pain and suffering and they would do it without any assurance of being god when it was all over (in fact, with the assurance they wouldn't be). I think some would do this even if it meant they would cease to exist completely when it was all over while all their fellow humans would be the beneficiaries. They would have the will; all they would lack is the power to do so which is hardly their fault.
Which I can never see giving up as it is as much a part of me as any physical body part.
Before we just agree to disagree, you did not address the magnitude of the "sacrifice," especially given Jesus's foreknowledge. I would be certain that at least some mere mortals would choose to perform this "sacrifice' if they could be assured humanity could be "saved" if they just endured a finite amount of pain and suffering and they would do it without any assurance of being god when it was all over (in fact, with the assurance they wouldn't be). I think some would do this even if it meant they would cease to exist completely when it was all over while all their fellow humans would be the beneficiaries. They would have the will; all they would lack is the power to do so which is hardly their fault.
Jesus was fully man, and fully God. Frankly, as a rational being I cannot get my hands around it. As man, he suffered big time. As God he knew that suffering to be necessary and chose to bear the burden knowing he could have changed it. It is, in many ways, a paradox. Our finite minds do not deal well with paradox.
02-27-04, 10:00 AM
#32
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Originally posted by wlmowery
I agree we will disagree. However, I do not see the magnitude decreasing just because Jesus knew of a future end-point. He still suffered. He still bled. He still died. In fact, to me it would be worse knowing that your could make these horrors end but doing so would destroy the reason for them occuring. I equate it to the suffering a parent must endure watching their children make mistakes knowing they could step in and prevent consequences but knowing that doing so would undermine the child's recognition of consequences for action...
Jesus was fully man, and fully God. Frankly, as a rational being I cannot get my hands around it. As man, he suffered big time. As God he knew that suffering to be necessary and chose to bear the burden knowing he could have changed it. It is, in many ways, a paradox. Our finite minds do not deal well with paradox.
I agree we will disagree. However, I do not see the magnitude decreasing just because Jesus knew of a future end-point. He still suffered. He still bled. He still died. In fact, to me it would be worse knowing that your could make these horrors end but doing so would destroy the reason for them occuring. I equate it to the suffering a parent must endure watching their children make mistakes knowing they could step in and prevent consequences but knowing that doing so would undermine the child's recognition of consequences for action...
Jesus was fully man, and fully God. Frankly, as a rational being I cannot get my hands around it. As man, he suffered big time. As God he knew that suffering to be necessary and chose to bear the burden knowing he could have changed it. It is, in many ways, a paradox. Our finite minds do not deal well with paradox.
Good discussion.
02-27-04, 10:05 AM
#33
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A big part you guys are missing is that Jesus was BLAMELESS. The sacrificial lamb. Somebody completely without sin - according to Theology, the ONLY person ever to live without sin.
And he had to endure the ultimate suffering anyway, and go through it, to cleanse the sinners of their sin.
Not only that, but no normal person would have the power to STOP a half day of ultimate torture. Jesus would have been able to stop it had he wanted to(afterall, the New Testament even shows him raising the dead!). I think no matter how much will I steeled myself to, that "it would all be over soon"(which, Movielib, it would be the same for ANYBODY - no matter your beliefs - anybody would know that it WOULD end sometime, no matter the end result), no matter how I prepared to go through with it - just getting hit by those lictons ONCE I would be ready to stop it.
What IS superhuman about the sacrifice is somebody being completely blameless, and having the power to stop it, but never giving into that temptation, despite a half day of unbelievable torture. I don't know if any human being could accomplish that. It's well known that humans will "talk" very quickly when tortured to make it stop - they'll say anything, and there's no guarantee then that it WOULD stop even then. Jesus could have definitively made it stop if he had wanted to, according to theology.
I also don't like to discount Jesus as a man. I don't think he was using "superpowers" to survive. I think Jesus was a man, and he had doubt that he had to get through - but triumphing over that is what makes his sacrifice all that much more meaningful.
Also, the biggest deal was this person without Sin - God, even, having to BECOME SIN and become disconnected with the divine in order to accomplish the task - a worse torture no doubt than all the physical trials.
Again - it is theology, and there's many interepretations.
Here's a very interesting one:
http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/W...lentgrace.html
And he had to endure the ultimate suffering anyway, and go through it, to cleanse the sinners of their sin.
Not only that, but no normal person would have the power to STOP a half day of ultimate torture. Jesus would have been able to stop it had he wanted to(afterall, the New Testament even shows him raising the dead!). I think no matter how much will I steeled myself to, that "it would all be over soon"(which, Movielib, it would be the same for ANYBODY - no matter your beliefs - anybody would know that it WOULD end sometime, no matter the end result), no matter how I prepared to go through with it - just getting hit by those lictons ONCE I would be ready to stop it.
What IS superhuman about the sacrifice is somebody being completely blameless, and having the power to stop it, but never giving into that temptation, despite a half day of unbelievable torture. I don't know if any human being could accomplish that. It's well known that humans will "talk" very quickly when tortured to make it stop - they'll say anything, and there's no guarantee then that it WOULD stop even then. Jesus could have definitively made it stop if he had wanted to, according to theology.
I also don't like to discount Jesus as a man. I don't think he was using "superpowers" to survive. I think Jesus was a man, and he had doubt that he had to get through - but triumphing over that is what makes his sacrifice all that much more meaningful.
Also, the biggest deal was this person without Sin - God, even, having to BECOME SIN and become disconnected with the divine in order to accomplish the task - a worse torture no doubt than all the physical trials.
Again - it is theology, and there's many interepretations.
Here's a very interesting one:
http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/W...lentgrace.html
02-27-04, 10:19 AM
#34
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Originally posted by movielib
OK, now I'm satisfied with agreeing to disagree.
Good discussion.
OK, now I'm satisfied with agreeing to disagree.
Good discussion.
Thank you for the rational and non-condenscending discussion....
02-27-04, 10:29 AM
#35
DVD Talk Hero
Originally posted by natesfortune
A big part you guys are missing is that Jesus was BLAMELESS. The sacrificial lamb. Somebody completely without sin - according to Theology, the ONLY person ever to live without sin.
A big part you guys are missing is that Jesus was BLAMELESS. The sacrificial lamb. Somebody completely without sin - according to Theology, the ONLY person ever to live without sin.
And he had to endure the ultimate suffering anyway, and go through it, to cleanse the sinners of their sin.
Not only that, but no normal person would have the power to STOP a half day of ultimate torture. Jesus would have been able to stop it had he wanted to(afterall, the New Testament even shows him raising the dead!). I think no matter how much will I steeled myself to, that "it would all be over soon"(which, Movielib, it would be the same for ANYBODY - no matter your beliefs - anybody would know that it WOULD end sometime, no matter the end result), no matter how I prepared to go through with it - just getting hit by those lictons ONCE I would be ready to stop it.
...
...
I haven't even brought up part of the end result of Jesus's "sacrifice" according to traditional and literalist Christianity: that those who do not accept a certain belief will be tortured forever (and I don't see how this could not be worse than what Jesus allegedly endured) regardless of the sincerity and honesty of their beliefs and regardless of how good a life they lead (yes, nobody's perfect but I fail to see how it should count for nothing). I cannot get past this and I don't believe I ever will. In my opinion, it is the ultimate evil.
02-27-04, 10:44 AM
#36
DVD Talk Hero
Originally posted by wlmowery
I never get tired of discussion with rational folks who can at least understand that part of the problem in our disagreement is we are approaching it from two diametrically opposed POVs and backgrounds.
Thank you for the rational and non-condenscending discussion....
I never get tired of discussion with rational folks who can at least understand that part of the problem in our disagreement is we are approaching it from two diametrically opposed POVs and backgrounds.
Thank you for the rational and non-condenscending discussion....
We don't have to hug now, do we?
02-27-04, 10:50 AM
#37
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I will admit that I've also found that you're either "in the club" or you're an outcast if you believe in one specific tenet of the Christian religion. It's like, if you believe in Buddha or Mohammed, or any other religious conduit, you're going to eternal damnation because you don't believe in Christ. Many have wondered, what if you live in a society that's ignorant of Christ (i.e. pygmies, aboriginees, et al), you're basically doomed because of ignorance, even if you live, by any other account, a righteous life full of love and understanding.
It becomes a "my god can beat up your god" situation, and that has led to unnecessary bloodshed through the ages.
It becomes a "my god can beat up your god" situation, and that has led to unnecessary bloodshed through the ages.
02-27-04, 11:27 AM
#38
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Originally posted by Patman
I will admit that I've also found that you're either "in the club" or you're an outcast if you believe in one specific tenet of the Christian religion. It's like, if you believe in Buddha or Mohammed, or any other religious conduit, you're going to eternal damnation because you don't believe in Christ. Many have wondered, what if you live in a society that's ignorant of Christ (i.e. pygmies, aboriginees, et al), you're basically doomed because of ignorance, even if you live, by any other account, a righteous life full of love and understanding.
It becomes a "my god can beat up your god" situation, and that has led to unnecessary bloodshed through the ages.
I will admit that I've also found that you're either "in the club" or you're an outcast if you believe in one specific tenet of the Christian religion. It's like, if you believe in Buddha or Mohammed, or any other religious conduit, you're going to eternal damnation because you don't believe in Christ. Many have wondered, what if you live in a society that's ignorant of Christ (i.e. pygmies, aboriginees, et al), you're basically doomed because of ignorance, even if you live, by any other account, a righteous life full of love and understanding.
It becomes a "my god can beat up your god" situation, and that has led to unnecessary bloodshed through the ages.
what, where and when that means... i don't know.
02-27-04, 11:42 AM
#39
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That's not what the Christian clergy are preaching (probably use it as a footnote, though)! Anyhow, I'm not into organized religion anyway because there simply too many different belief systems and you just have to find the one that works for you.
