Go Back  DVD Talk Forum > Entertainment Discussions > Movie Talk
Reload this Page >

A question about Arwen

Movie Talk A Discussion area for everything movie related including films In The Theaters

A question about Arwen

Old 12-17-03, 05:11 PM
  #1  
Banned by request
Thread Starter
 
Supermallet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Termite Terrace
Posts: 54,150
Likes: 0
Received 8 Likes on 8 Posts
A question about Arwen

Here's something that bugged me from the Fellowship through Return of the King.

Before I ask, let me preface with I am reading the books, but I am starting with The Silmarillion, moving through The Hobbit, and then reading The Lord of the Rings, so I get it all in chronological order of events, as opposed to going by which books were published first. And, at the moment, I am still on The Silmarillion. So I will eventually get the answer to my question, I'm sure, but I've got a ways to go.

Anyway, my question is:
How can Arwen just drop her immortality? Why is it tied to the Evenstar jewel? Nothing I've read of the Elves suggests they can just suddenly become mortal. The only precedent I've come upon is in the Lay of Luthien, but there, she's offered immortality by, if I remember correctly, Ulmo, although it may have been Manwe. Either way, a god grants her mortality. So how can Arwen suddenly just become mortal? And, if she had already chosen to become mortal in the first film, why do Elrond's words about her staying alive for centuries after Aragorn's death move her to leave for the Undying Lands? It's something that never sat right with me.
Old 12-17-03, 06:18 PM
  #2  
New Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Sacramento, CA USA
Posts: 5
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
The choice was offered only to the decendants of Earendil and Elwing. You will come to know that from these two the blood of elves and men were mixed, thus thier decendants were given the opportunity to choose between elf and man. elves having eternal life or men who are doomed to die--called the "gift of men."

Earendil's twin sons got the choice. Elrond chose to be elven, his brother Elros to be mortal. Elros later went on to become the first king of Numenor. Elrond after the death of Gil-Galad was the last of the high elven kings of middle earth although he never assumed that title.

Later the choice was passed to Elrond's children. At first it was stated that if his children did not pass to the West with their father their fate will be cast with men. However, Elrond somehow got that choice to be delayed for his sons. We all know that Arwen chooses mortality.

Arwen's choic has nothing to do with that pendant as implied by PJ in the FOTR. That was totally made up. She chooses when she marries Aragorn. One may wonder why would she so choose as men only live for a very short period of time. The answer lies in the afterlife. If she remains elven she will live forever and will never meet with Aragorn again. However, if she chooses mortality their is the possibility that their souls will meet again and spent eternity together. Romantic in a way. So she makes that choice. Not really a hard one when you think about it. The possibility to be with someone you love forever.

With regards to Luthien. Elves can be reincarnated. When they die (through war or grief) their souls go to Mandros and they are reincarnated (as I understand it) because they are immortal. They then spend their lives in Valinor. Beren dies and Luthien dies of grief. Her soul goes to Mandros and he is so moved by her tale that it is decided that Beren and Luthien be allowed to live one lifetime together as mortals. They are returned to Beleriand where they live in some enchanted island somewhere in a river (I forget where). They have a son Dior who has a daughter Elwing (see above).

Lots of the scenes in the movies with Arwen are made up. In the trilogy she is a very minor character. An important character, but has a very minor role. She is only seen in FOTR and at the end of ROTK. She has maybe a whole page worth of words. So a lot of what you see in the movies are in the imagination of PJ and his writers. We know of the tale of Arwen and Aragron because Tolkien has been kind enough to include their tale in the Appendix.

You are brave to begin with the Silmarillion as it is a hard read as it is. In my opinion it should be attempted only after reading the more reader-friendly Hobbit and LOTR trilogy. I found the Silmarillion very depressing and not all that enjoyable. However it has vital information for Tokien addicts. I wish you well. Cheers!
Old 12-17-03, 06:37 PM
  #3  
DVD Talk Platinum Edition
 
caligulathegod's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Grove City OH
Posts: 3,854
Received 44 Likes on 25 Posts
There is no tie with the jewel. The movie is just using it symbolically.

Arwen is the daughter of the Half-elven Elrond. Elrond and his descendents have the choice of which kindred with whom they should be accounted. They can delay the choice but it can't be put off forever. I believe this choice is only open to the Half-elven. Also, despite what she said in the first film, she didn't become mortal until she was married. In the first film she was just saying that it was her choice. I don't believe he ever actually said that she would live centuries but that Aragorn would experience death and she would be left alone. She went to Lorien and that winter died, herself. The film was trying to create a little drama there. In the book, Elrond just wanted Aragorn to become King before he would allow his daughter to marry a mortal. He wasn't as against it as in the film.

Oh yeah, Luthien appealed to Mandos who then went to Manwe who appealed to Iluvatar (God) and she was granted the choice to become mortal.
Old 12-17-03, 06:39 PM
  #4  
DVD Talk Platinum Edition
 
caligulathegod's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Grove City OH
Posts: 3,854
Received 44 Likes on 25 Posts
Oops. I figured stopping to d a little research, I'd be beaten to the answer.
Old 12-18-03, 04:03 AM
  #5  
Banned by request
Thread Starter
 
Supermallet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Termite Terrace
Posts: 54,150
Likes: 0
Received 8 Likes on 8 Posts
Thanks for the answers, guys! Makes a lot more sense to me now.

As for starting with The Silmarillion, well, I'm 5/6 done with it now, and I love it. Granted, it was hard to get into, but now that I got the rhythm of it, it flies by. Can't wait to finish it and get started on The Hobbit.
Old 12-18-03, 04:31 AM
  #6  
TCG
DVD Talk Special Edition
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Philly
Posts: 1,408
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally posted by Sacto95834
With regards to Luthien. Elves can be reincarnated. When they die (through war or grief) their souls go to Mandros and they are reincarnated (as I understand it) because they are immortal.
so does this mean that Haldir and the Elves that died at Helms Deep were automatically recincarnated in Valinor? it's a much quicker way to get there than sailing in a boat.

and where do Hobbits go when they die?

Last edited by TCG; 12-18-03 at 05:14 AM.
Old 12-18-03, 09:00 AM
  #7  
DVD Talk Gold Edition
 
Join Date: May 2000
Location: Un-Happy Valley, PA
Posts: 2,718
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally posted by TCG
so does this mean that Haldir and the Elves that died at Helms Deep were automatically recincarnated in Valinor? it's a much quicker way to get there than sailing in a boat.

and where do Hobbits go when they die?
Well, uh, yeah, but the time in Mandros can linger for some. Many elven souls in the Halls of Mandros never manage to return to the world...

Hobbits are a branch of humanity and, as with men, are granted the Gift of Iluvatur and pass at death beyond the bounds of Ea.
Old 12-18-03, 04:49 PM
  #8  
DVD Talk Platinum Edition
 
caligulathegod's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Grove City OH
Posts: 3,854
Received 44 Likes on 25 Posts
Oh, by the way, it's Mandos, not Mandros.

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service -

Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.