Pants

I was just thinking about this to myself the other day.

While Raging Bull is among Scorsese's best films it is not his very best film.

My feelings have always been that Taxi Driver, Raging Bull, and Goodfellas are his top 3 films, but the question begged: In which order?

I came to Raging Bull late. I had already seen Taxi Driver and Goodfellas. After seeing Raging Bull for the first time in 1996 it emediately shot to the top of my list, but over the course of 5 or 6 subsequent viewings my enthusiasm for it has slacked off while Goodfellas and Taxi Driver continue to hold their top spots each time I watch them.

So while I don't feel Raging Bull is in any way "over rated" I don't feel it should be counted as his very best work or his one and only masterpiece.

The film's biggest plus is its makers' skill in creating the boxing sequences of the film. Not only are the techniques employed in them extraordinary, but so is the restraint showed by the filmmakers to not go overboard with the technique. The film's boxing sequences are the thing it is most remembered and celebrated for, yet they amount to less than 15 minutes of screen time. Seldom have a collection of such short moments had such an impact on the overall film. I applaud Scorsese for not only creating such virtuoso moments, but for using so little of them and having the restraint to leave the audience wanting more.

The film's weaknesses lie in its inherent inferiority on two levels, both of which are addressed much better in Taxi Driver and Goodfellas.

1. Taxi Driver accomplishes something very difficult. It tells the story of a man by using the camera's subjective gaze so that we understand his state of mind on an implicit and almost subconscious level.

2. Goodfellas tells the multi-decade spaning rise and fall of a character, Henry Hill. The film employs limited subjective gaze and instead principly uses the objective gaze of documentary (all be it a fictionalized one).

Both these films (Taxi Driver and Goodfellas) have a stylistic approach to their narative that they deliver on 100%.

While still an excellent film, Raging Bull delivers about 85%

One of the biggest things going agains Raging Bull is the existence of the other two movies (Taxi Driver and Goodfellas).

Raging Bull uses Goodfella's sprawling, era spanning, narrative and combines it with Taxi Driver's subjective point of view of one character. While it does this admirably well, it doesn't do it as well as the other two films do it on their own.

So while Raging Bull does an amazing job of trying to put us into the mind of Jake LaMotta through subjective camera it doesn't do it as well as Taxi Driver. And while Raging Bull tries to tell us the sprawling story of a man in a unique way, ten years later Goodfellas did it better.

Pants

Should have known that would kill the thread.

Gyno Rhino

There's a whole lot of morons throwing into this thread.

About what I expected.

I didn't say that I didn't like the movie. I think it's a good movie.

But I'm curious as to why it's consistently ranked as big M's best movie, and the best movie of the 80s.

Don't give me that "you're unexperienced" BS.

I didn't hate the main character. I didn't like him. My main point was that I didn't really FEEL anything for him. Was DeNiro great in the role? Yes. Was the imagery amazing? Yes. Everything about the movie (in parts) was terrific. But when put together, it felt empty.

movielib

You can honestly say that about that piece of dung, Bringing Out the Dead? Or that borefest, The Age of Innocence (which was blown away by the somewhat similarly themed The Remains of the Day that same year)? I also thought The Last Temptation of Christ thoroughly ruined Kazantzakis's great novel.

MrN

I personally hate the word 'over-rated' - its just too subjective a term. Why compare your opinion to the rest of the world? The film did terrible at the box office, so I guess it was under-rated and now its over-rated - who cares?

I think its one of Scorsese's best. But FWIW, I love Age of Innocence and don't too much care for Goodfellas.

The Nature Boy

I hope you are including yourself a moron throwing in by starting this thread. Dude you offer an indirect attack on what's widely considered one of the classic films of world cinema. And the basis for said attack is that it feels "empty". If you know why it's considered a great film, then why are you asking for other people's thoughts if you going to get your panties in a bunch. It didn't work for you, it's not the end of the world. When presented with a hypothesis as to why it may not have worked, mainly YOU may not own the scope of experience necessary to put all that "emptiness" together, you go a long way to proving that by calling people names.

I can't begin to get inside your head as to why you weren't with Jake LaMotta when he's but either you are or you aren't. If you are, you understand the magic of the movie, if you aren't, I'd imagine you don't. All I know is, it was a different movie 10 years ago for me then it is now. I know the movie didn't change in that time, maybe, just maybe, I did. Maybe you will to. Mazel Tov.

Gyno Rhino

*chuckle* It's funny you mention the scene above.

That was one of the only scenes where I did feel like I was sitting in the room watching.

I don't disagree that there are a great deal of good scenes. As I said, the movie is fantastic in its parts, but the sum of it all just didn't come together like it should have.

SeanValen

Everyone has their own opinion on it, overatted and underatted, with the internet, you really meet people with very different tastes, movies are open to interpretation, sometimes there are very bad films, and very good films, and majority agree, there is peace, with ragging bull, most people like it, so there's no real point trying to ask people why they like it, if you didn't like it, then there's likely nothing anyone else can do to make u like it, accept your distaste of the film, and view films you do enjoy.

SeanValen

Maybe your not suppose to get into the heads of the characters too much, and leave the rest open to your imagination, and as different people have different imaginations, what you think in regards to character, others maybe seeing things differently, the strength of some films is to show stuff, tell you stuff, but let you fill in the blanks, is the character thinking this? or that? maybe for some thats in ragging bull, it's subjective.

kmac

Wow, I just had a revelation after reading this post. I must not be a real cinema lover!

No, really. I did not like it either. I like alot of Marty's films and think they are classics, but I did not enjoy this one. I do not think that it is a masterpiece.

That is my opinion. Everyone is entitled to their own.

Just because I did not like it, does not mean that I pretend to love real cinema.

Now I will go back to watching 'Happy Gilmore' (Im kidding, I actually hate Sandler movies).

Pants

I'd count Age of Innocence and Bringing Out The Dead among his very best.

Honestly Scorsese has a very good track record. He only has a couple truely flawed films, and even those are worth watching: New York, New York and Gangs of New York.

I'd rank his films something like this:

1. Taxi Driver
2. Goodfellas
3. Raging Bull
4. After Hours
5. King of Comedy
6. Mean Streets
7. Last Temptation of Christ
8. Casino
9. Bringing Out The Dead
10. Age of Innocence
11. Cape Fear
12. Color of Money
13. The Last Waltz
14. New York, New York
15. Gangs of New York

Not sure where to put Kundun

jfoobar

A remarkably revealing post. You have certainly driven home your point with authority.

Unfortunatelty, the point you have driven home is almost certainly not the point you intended to make.

movielib

You rank them 9th and 10th and they are among his very best?

I agree with you that some of his poorer ones are Cape Fear, The Color of Money and New York, New York. I think Gangs of New York is a lot better than you think, apparently. I'd put it in his top half. I'd put After Hours and The Last Temptation of Christ much lower than you and raise The King of Comedy to at least 3, maybe 2.

I haven't seen The Last Waltz or Kundun.

Pants

They're still great he just has so many great films.

PixyJunket

Well.. with something like M@$$ /PWN@G3 in your sig, it's hard to take seriously on your opinions of classic film, BUT you did say Taxi Driver is one of your favorite films.. oh I'm so confused.

On a more serious note, I saw this a couple of years ago for the first time.. overrated? No, I don't think so.. but I don't remeber being totally intrigued by it. I could see the merits of the movie, that's for sure.. but I've had no desire to want to rewatch.

Gyno Rhino

That's kind of my point. So do you think it's the best movie of the 1980s?