i hate to suggest a "phantom edit" but i agree with that. I could easily pick out a half hour of scenes from each film, making one kick ass 3 hour movie.

bear with me, i'm thinking through this as i go...

from reloaded:

smith as human subplot
morpheus' zion speech
rave/sex scene edited
neo's talk with the counselman (good but no payoff)
fight with the oracle's bodyguard
orgasm cake...although the ideo of food as code is important
the fight in the car

from revolutions:

all things train station...suffice it to say that merv has neo
most of the stuff with link's wife...felt contrived to me
shorter zion battle...given their EMP defense system
smith as human subplot
skyscrape gone, death scene shorter

pretty sure that would end up in the neighborhood of 3 hours.

ScandalMUD: Actually, you were quoting me, not Ralph Wiggum.

No, that's just the problem. He wasn't made into a "superhero" until the end of the second movie. The first movie had hints, but nothing that you could honestly say was intentionally a hint, beyond the point of reasonable doubt.

What bunk! Tolkien invented whole new LANGUAGES in order to keep his stories consistent in and of themselves. He didn't consider his world subject to change as he told the story. That's why he spent so much time and effort in creating that world before he stuck one word down on paper. He wrote whole histories and backgrounds of the invented reality he had created so he could be consistent in his telling of it. Anyone who knows the history or who has even watched a documentary on Tolkien can tell you that.

If you want to just make crap up as you go along, that's fine, if you're good at it. Most people are not that good at it.

But the problem with the Matrix movies is largely that it feels much like they were making it up as they went along. That's why the third movie is so wacked out by comparison to the first two. I find it hard not to believe that they had a good idea and script for movie one and only wrote two and three because someone dropped a few truck loads of cash onto their front lawns.

If your story is inconsistent with itself, then it's unbelievable and keeps you from identifying with the characters in the story. The first movie did so well largely because people identified with Neo. The second movie lost some of that, but not all of it because he only had powers in the Matrix itself. The third movie turned Neo into all around super dude and nobody could identify with his character anymore. That's the real problem here.

"The interests of narrative"? That's the sort of phrase you get when you read too much about crap like "the art of storytelling" and don't actually write anything worth reading.

Story telling is not about the story, it's about the people you're telling the story to. If they think it sucks, then it sucks. End of discussion, bucko. You can have all the refined elegant artsy types think it's a masterful work of art if you like, but that doesn't make it worth diddly to the majority of the people who are there to hear something engaging and interesting.

You're the one missing the point here. I'm not obsessing over detail, I'm asking for some of the MAIN PLOT POINTS IN THE STORY. It's one thing to complain about a little piddly thing in one corner of the screen for three frames, it's wholly another to complain about a major plot point like the fact that Neo could convienently make the machines blow up in reality just by thinking about it.

Certainly it is. It's explained quite well in the first movie. It is, in fact, the main point of the first movie. You might consider watching it again.

It isn't necessary to explain these things. They are minor points of the plot. Neo being able to control machines using only his mind is a major plot point and it is not explained or even hinted at very well.

That's great. You can go focus on the philosophical ramifactions all you like. I'm not unaware of the points made in the film on that level myself. However, the philosophical points they actually make are neither a) new, b) original, c) interesting to anyone over the age of 16. I think some of them date back to the Greeks.

Who's complaining about engineering aspects? Not I. I'm complaining about major plot points here.

Because Neo using his mystical powers is important to the story. The fact that he can do this is the only reason he's able to get to 01. The fact that he can't do it that well is the direct cause of Trinity's death. The fact that he can see when he's blind is the catalyst for an important revelation (Smith in Bane's body) and the means he uses to reach 01 itself.

The ship did have machine guns in the first film. They just didn't have any reason to use them, and at the time they were found by the sentinels, there were too few people to operate them and make any difference anyway. And again, this is a minor point instead of a major part of the plot.

The main reason I'd much rather keep Reloaded and Revolutions as separate films is that they're very different stylistically, and there's a definite break in the plot between them (the Architect's speech just wouldn't have worked as well in the middle of a movie). Plus I loved every minute of Revolutions. But I can see how people would disagree...

This is the only one I'll comment on. Morpheus' speech puts into context the mindset of Morpheus and the people of Zion. The idea that they are independent, they are free, they have escaped. They are doing something the machines don't want them to do, and they'll carry on doing it because they've suceeded so far, even though the machines didn't want them to.

The revelation that Morpheus is totally, totally wrong is quite poignant, and I think the earlier scene is necessary to provide the contrast.

i found the movies entertaining, end of story. you can toss all your gripes out the window, i don't care if you think it's unoriginal, if you think the SFX suck, if you think it's trying to preach to people, i could care less. i liked the movies pretty simple when you get down to it

Don't forget to take out the scene with Colonel Sanders, the most pretentious scene of Reloaded. That's 30-40 minutes right there.

Edit the two films together and trim the following two scenes to a reasonable length:





And you'd have a lean 1 hr 30 minute film.

Which is precisely why on a regular basis the machines would destroy Zion. When the mathematical probability of someone recognizing Zion as just another construct reached some pre-determined level you reset Zion to avoid just such a discovery.

Sci-fi and fantasy are often erroneously lumped to together but true sci-fi and true fantasy are distinctly separate types of fiction. The first Matrix was pure sci-fi. It started with the world we know, threw in some scientifically plausible change (AI and virtual realities) and explored what could transpire with those scientific advancements. It all fit together logically, the science was plausible, if something was not explained you could rely on what you knew to be true in our reality as it was our reality that was extrapolated to create the world of the Matrix. Nothing forbids a work of sci-fi from being philosophically or religiously thematic or allegorical, in fact many of the greatest works of sci-fi revolve around religious, philosophical or sociological ideas and ramifications.

With Reloaded and Revolutions the Wachowski's did one of two things, they either continued the Trilogy as a work of pure sci-fi, or they chose to turn the story into a work of fantasy. If it is sci-fi, then the answer "because he is the One" and blind acceptance of miraculous powers in the "Real World" are not acceptable, but if it is intended to be fantasy, that is sufficient. If it is intended to be sci-fi, then matrix-in-a-matrix sufficiently answers all the questions, and enough evidence exists to support the theory, but unfortunately this is not stated, but can only be reached through supposition...

The question is did the Wachowski brothers decide to scrap the pure sci-fi basis of the Matrix in writing Reloaded and Revolutions and turn Matrix into Fantasy. Or did they maintain a work of sci-fi, but make the clues very obscure and subtle and thus open for debate?

Since the saga started as sci-fi, I tend to think they continued with sci-fi but buried the explanations in subtle clues, but I think it also works as fantasy if you are willing to forget that the first was hard sci-fi...

With a preference for viewing the trilogy as sci-fi there are a few possible ways to extrapolate the sci-fi elements and explain what we saw in the "real world". Neo having special hardware, specialized code as part of him being the One, part man-part machine or matrix-in-a-matrix being the most often discussed.

Watching the movies I don't see much in the way of hints to support the other sci-fi theories, but I see a number of hints that lead to the matrix-in-a-matrix conclusion, for example:

• In the real world he receives the spoon, a clue that they're still is no spoon
• The gold code of Seraph matching the gold code of the real world
• The continuation of unnatural lighting (blue) in the real world

There's also the logic which Rehevkor touched on, and which was fleshed out in more detail in previous posts. (Check threads from the time of Reloaded's release.)

I'm willing to concede there is nothing conclusive to support any theory (matrix-in-a-matrix, fantasy miracles, Neo being part-machine,) but there is also nothing conclusive to refute the major theories that have bubbled to the top. It seems you're free to view the trilogy as fantasy or as sci-fi and, at this time, anyone that argues one of these theories is bunk or impossible to justify is presenting an unsupportable position.

Last night I was at the in-laws with the wife and I hooked up my camcorder to their 15 year old TV. We watched the first hour of our wedding and some honeymoon footage I shot. Mysteriously the video had a greenish tint on their TV.

Against my better judgement, I saw Matrix: Rehashed late sunday night. Once again the Beast of Crappy Writing strikes down what little creativeness that The Matrix had.

As I understand it, the entire premise of the trilogy is to not only save Zion but also free all the humans still plugged into the Matrix. So why would Neo make peace with the Big Swirling Machine Head (AKA Sinistar), when there are 6 billion humans still be enslaved by the machines? What kind of peace is there going to be when the parasite machines still need the human batteries to survive?

Oh, don’t think about that - here, look at this beautiful sunrise instead.

Peace? Please - that's like snuggling up to Skynet or the Daleks.

(This is of course overlooking the notion that the concept of humans as a power source is completely improbable in the first place. It would take more energy and resources to keep a human alive than the energy gained that the enslaved human would produce in the first place. But that's the concept we're handed, stupid though it may be - so we have to take it and run.)

But hey - at least the Bondage/Fetish Club Scene didn’t drag on for ten minutes like the Rave Scene! That's a plus.

What possible motivation could Colonel Sanders/The Big Swirling Head/Sinistar have to NOT wipe out Zion now that Neo is gone? The humans have no defense, so there's nothing stopping him.

Well, the Humans have EMP bombs. I guess that would stop the machines. Oh - wait a second, apparently they only equip their SHIPS with these bombs, leaving Zion with only the lesser defenses. What kind of commander doesn’t stockpile their best weapon for just such an emergency. Line the passages leading all the way back to the Human's last refuge and blow them up as the machines approached. But then again, I'm no military commander, so what do I know.

Of course the machines weren't at the peak of their game. Once they drilled into Zion, why didn’t they just lower a Nuke down and blow the bajeebers out of the landing bay. Hell, send along a thousand machines as distraction to throw the meatbags inside off the scent that anything was wrong. Much easier and faster than sending in thousands and thousands and thousands of troops.

Oh - why the hell wasnt the Human's technology shielded against EMB bursts? Clearly they have the technology, since the ships arent disabled when THEY use them. So why not shield the power loaders too?

Oh - wait, the humans dont use EMP bombs in Zion, so there's no need to use that shielding there.

And if I'm ever impaled through the heart and lungs by three chunks of rebar, that I get five minutes to profess my true love, too. Jesus, Trinity - shut the hell up and die already!

I know at the end of the movie the Oracle asks "So what about the others, those who want out?" But hardly any of the Meatbags knew they were part of the Matrix, why would they "want out"?

What the hell was the deal behind the train man. The programs (in the matrix) were going . . . to The Real World? Huh?

And the movie was way too derivative of other films in places. What was up with the armored defense units? Did Wayland-Yutani have a sale on Power loaders or something? And the whole fly through the tight corridor to the heart of the Death Star - Lando should sue for slander or something. And the whole Dragonball-Z battle at the end - please.

The whole movie is laden with pseudo-philosophical gobbledygook. Colonel Sanders speaks of balancing the equations while the Oracle unbalances them. Smith goes on about nihilism while Neo counters with choice and free will. Now granted the movie is not quite as bad as Matrix 2, but now is not the time for exposition. Now is the time for ANSWERS!

And the Wachowskis brothers (or is that sisters) never get around to answering anything, do they. Why did Smith become so powerful? How does Neo manipulate machines outside the Matrix? How did Neo get into the Matrix without being jacked in? Why did the Oracle’s appearance change (Well, aside from the fact that original actress died during shooting)? What's up with that Sight beyond Sight thing when Neo was blinded? Did someone slip him the Sword of Omens or something? Its not a good sign when you spend 4 hours out of 6 and still have a shit-load of questions at the end.

The highpoint of the film is of course the Battle for Zion - but it goes on WAY too long. By the end, you feel bludgeoned and numb. And what the hell - why sideline The Chosen One for half an hour? You know - the Savior? The whole point of the movie? Lucas may have gotten some things wrong with the last two Star Wars films, but you have to admit that the man knows how to edit an end climax battle scene. The Zion Battle goes on for just too damn long, when any editor worth his salt would have been jumping back and forth between all the plot lines that were going on at the time.

All in all, it was a big waste of time. I want the four hours of my life back!

Not everyone will want to leave the Matrix.

No, the train shuttled programs from the Machine World to the Matrix.

Great review, BTW. Funny stuff.

Oh - I must have missed that since I notice that my eyes just tend to glaze over when the movie starts sermonizing at me yet again.

One of my main gripe from people who didn't like the film: when it becomes apparent they didn't comprehend or pay attention to what appears on the screen.

You understand wrongly. It's really as simple as that - just because you viewed that as the ideal ultimate goal doesn't mean it was. And it wasn't.

The vast majority of humans would rather stay in the Matrix. So why shouldn't the machines use these people for energy? What harm is it? As long as the people of Zion are allowed to take people out of the Matrix who want to come out of the Matrix (if given the choice - on both a subconscious level, and a literal level if they are asked to choose a pill), what does it matter if everyone else stays in? This way everybody wins!

If all the humans were set free, what kind of peace would that be? There wouldn't be enough space or resources to support them all, and most of them would be bitter, angry and/or depressive.

the movie was supposed to make you question the ending. that's how they wanted it so people would talk about it. obviously, it has worked.

Yeah it is - Morphious even says as much early on (the first movie, I believe).

But for the sake of argument, lets assume I'm wrong. What's the point of the war then?

The vast majority of humans dont even KNOW they're in the Matrix, so the choice (one of the major themes of the movie, as I seem to recall) isnt even a option for them.

Well, I guess if you consider 3/4th of the human race still enslaved and used as simple tools by their oppressors winning, then yeah - I guess the humans did win, didnt they.

You're assuming that Morph wakes up Monday morning, says "Time for you wake up call!" and instantly pulls the plug on 6 billion people. Of course that isn't going to work - it's going to take lots and lots and lots time to get everyone out from under their evil overlords.

But as the movie stands now, it's back to business as usual with nothing changed. Humans going about their daily lives living a lie and unknowingly providing power to the parasitic machines. THIS is the "revolution" talked about in the subtitle?

The ships were never shielded. They'd get knocked outby EMPs too. That's how Bane sabotaged the counter-attack (by setting off an EMP ahead of schedule). That's also why, in the first film, they had to wait until after Neo got out of the Matrix in order to use the EMP against the Sentinels.

You're right, that was the point of the war. But that was not the purpose of the one. Morpheus assumed that ending the war meant destroying the Matrix. In reality, ending the war meant the truce Neo achieved through his new covenant where exiled programs and humans could co-exist in the Matrix.



It's implied that they'll be made aware of the truth. That's why the Architect says that all that WANT to be freed will be freed. Of course you can assume that many will make a deal such as Cypher did with Smith and choose to have their memories erased and allowed back into the Matrix.



Again, it was a truce not an actual victory for either side.



Like you said, they wont be freed overnight. But they will be made aware of the truth in due time and given the choice between a dream world and the real world.

No, the revolution is that peace is now achieved, humans are free from the threat of death from the machines and exiles will no longer be deleted.

I saw Revolutions last night with my brother, and we were both incredibly disappointed. It was like I wasn't watching a Matrix movie at all. Morpheus goes from training The One to Mrs. Will Smith's co-pilot? Trinity does basically nothing? Long, elaborate space/planet battles and chases? What the hell????

Now I understand that there is a good bit more to the Matrix than wire-fu and chases, but I believe they could have still told the story they wanted to tell without getting away from what drew audiences to the movie in the first place.

They setup the huge overdrawn battle of Zion, when everyone knows that none of it mattered. Was I really supposed to care what happened to the kid, the wife or the general? I didn't... Niobe? Link? nope. nope. The main characters fron the first two movies were Neo, Trinity and Morpheus. Trinity and Morpheus were basically bit players, and even Neo disappeared for long stretches of time.

It isn't so hard to believe Neo had special abilities in the real world. He started out with the machines and was basically delivered to Morpheus by the machines.

El-Kabong, wow.. you managed a nice number of pop culture refrences in your little mini-review.

Here's a bit of humor to brighten your thread. THIS is how the Matrix should have ended:

Oh yes. A much better ending!

If I was Bill Gates with my mega billions of $$$ and someone yanked me out, I'd be pi$$ed!!!

did you even watch the movie? every one of those questions where answered, mostly by the oracle

"Just Because" is not what I'd call an acceptable answer though.