Jet Li and Jackie Chan in Hollywood - How would u rate them ?
09-16-03, 07:02 PM
#1
Suspended; also need updated email
Thread Starter
Jet Li and Jackie Chan in Hollywood - How would u rate them ?
Most fans know the full history of Jackie and Jet's movies but for many people, their hollywood careers started with Rumble in the Bronx for Jackie and then took off with Rush Hour and Lethal Weapon 4 for Jet.
True fans know that the stuff that Jackie and Jet have done in HOllywood is about 40% of their potential. Sure the movies have the Hollywood bows and ribbons, name co stars , trendy soundtracks etc but it's just not core Jackie and Jet.
I still think for the most part, quoting the late great Bruce Lee, Jackie and Jet are still "just another chink in a gwailo movie"
Sure they may get star billing but they aren't allowed to do what they do best. It is still a Hollywood thinks he knows best director in charge and martial arts wise , they are both woefully underultilised.
I'd personally like to see another big joint HK/Hollywood co production like Enter the Dragon and give Jackie almost total control but a hollywood level budget. He would do wonders !
True fans know that the stuff that Jackie and Jet have done in HOllywood is about 40% of their potential. Sure the movies have the Hollywood bows and ribbons, name co stars , trendy soundtracks etc but it's just not core Jackie and Jet.
I still think for the most part, quoting the late great Bruce Lee, Jackie and Jet are still "just another chink in a gwailo movie"
Sure they may get star billing but they aren't allowed to do what they do best. It is still a Hollywood thinks he knows best director in charge and martial arts wise , they are both woefully underultilised.
I'd personally like to see another big joint HK/Hollywood co production like Enter the Dragon and give Jackie almost total control but a hollywood level budget. He would do wonders !
09-16-03, 07:22 PM
#2
DVD Talk Limited Edition
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: NJ, the place where smiles go to die
Posts: 7,393
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
Good topic & one I've discussed often with friends.
With Chan, it's not only matter of "not being allowed to do what they do best" like you said. It's also a matter of he hit big in the states to late in his lifetime. Which IMO is one of the great losses of American cinema. IMO Jacky is THE greatest & one of if not THE the most influential martial artist in the history of cinema. He completely understands & has spent decades learning more Martial Arts styles then anyone filmed & has combined them in ways that have never & probably will never be duplicated. Like Bruce Lee he has pioneered entire generations of actors & athletes attempting to duplicate him. The complexity of the fights in his early films frankly has never been matched to such perfection. Add the fact that unlike Bruce & Jet & every other actor of the genre, Chan is THE ONLY one to do every single little bit himself. Based on that I would say that every since Rush Hour (Bandit doesn't count) Americans really have only seen an older slower version of the greatness Jacky once was. However his comical timing & sheer film presense has grown incrediblly since making it big here. As a fan of him for over 20 years, his American films fighting wise have been a huge yet very understandable disapointment.
Jet Li, however I feel has been a MASSIVE dissapointment & with absolutely no excused whatsoever. He has picked awful movie after movie. His best role in the states to date has been Lethal Weapon. Acting & martial arts wise Lee has been terrible in America. You like at Romero, & all this crappy rap kung fu movies & then look at the brilliance of what happens when he goes over seas & makes a movie like Hero & you see can see what I mean. Li needs to choose his roles better & stop being so reliant on the wires. He is a jawdropping athlete that I dont' think American audiences have seen at all what he is capable of. He has been a huge let down so far IMO. Once of the things I hate about American movies is that with so many movies having people like Uma Thurman, Stiffler etc etc doing martial arts & people like Jet Li using so many wires in their movies, the average American audience can't tell the difference between a mind -boggling athlete like Donny Yen or Viva Fox doing a martial arts.
In a perfect movie world I would LOVE to see Jacky accept his age & choreograph an American movie with Jet Li as the villain & Zhang Ziyi (I know she is not a trained martial artist, but her natural ability makes her look more graceful than some people spending a life-time studying) & some up & coming talents.
With Chan, it's not only matter of "not being allowed to do what they do best" like you said. It's also a matter of he hit big in the states to late in his lifetime. Which IMO is one of the great losses of American cinema. IMO Jacky is THE greatest & one of if not THE the most influential martial artist in the history of cinema. He completely understands & has spent decades learning more Martial Arts styles then anyone filmed & has combined them in ways that have never & probably will never be duplicated. Like Bruce Lee he has pioneered entire generations of actors & athletes attempting to duplicate him. The complexity of the fights in his early films frankly has never been matched to such perfection. Add the fact that unlike Bruce & Jet & every other actor of the genre, Chan is THE ONLY one to do every single little bit himself. Based on that I would say that every since Rush Hour (Bandit doesn't count) Americans really have only seen an older slower version of the greatness Jacky once was. However his comical timing & sheer film presense has grown incrediblly since making it big here. As a fan of him for over 20 years, his American films fighting wise have been a huge yet very understandable disapointment.
Jet Li, however I feel has been a MASSIVE dissapointment & with absolutely no excused whatsoever. He has picked awful movie after movie. His best role in the states to date has been Lethal Weapon. Acting & martial arts wise Lee has been terrible in America. You like at Romero, & all this crappy rap kung fu movies & then look at the brilliance of what happens when he goes over seas & makes a movie like Hero & you see can see what I mean. Li needs to choose his roles better & stop being so reliant on the wires. He is a jawdropping athlete that I dont' think American audiences have seen at all what he is capable of. He has been a huge let down so far IMO. Once of the things I hate about American movies is that with so many movies having people like Uma Thurman, Stiffler etc etc doing martial arts & people like Jet Li using so many wires in their movies, the average American audience can't tell the difference between a mind -boggling athlete like Donny Yen or Viva Fox doing a martial arts.
In a perfect movie world I would LOVE to see Jacky accept his age & choreograph an American movie with Jet Li as the villain & Zhang Ziyi (I know she is not a trained martial artist, but her natural ability makes her look more graceful than some people spending a life-time studying) & some up & coming talents.
Last edited by Sessa17; 09-16-03 at 07:28 PM.
09-16-03, 08:01 PM
#4
Member
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 80
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I've hated every movie Chan has been in. I don't like his style at all. He's too goofy and not a good actor to me. I find him highly overrated. Donny Yen and Fat are much better. Jet's American movies have been a major let down to me too. He really shines in his hk work though. From Fist of Legend to Hero, he's been outstanding. I would give Chan 2 out of 5 in both HK and English (I kind of liked Drunken Master and he does well opposite Tucker in Rush Hour). Li would score 5 out of 5 in hk 2 out of 5 in English (he was decent in Lethal Weapon).
09-16-03, 09:22 PM
#5
DVD Talk Legend
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Cape Ann, Massachusetts
Posts: 10,928
Likes: 0
Received 2 Likes
on
2 Posts
Well, I think Jet and Jackie both made a number of really bad HK movies, too. I loved Once Upon a Time in China 1, and 2 was also a decent movie. But, I thought New Legend of Shaolin, OUATIC and America, Last Hero in China, etc., were all pretty mediocre. I thought some of Chan's later HK stuff, like Who Am I, to be so bad it was unwatchable.
I thought Shanghai Noon came about the closest to mixing the best of HK and Hollywood. The production values and comedy were better than many of Chan's HK stuff, and the fight scenes were good, even if they weren't as good as his HK stuff.
I think Jet Li has been underused since the beginning of his career. Here you have a country of one billion people, the birthplace of kung fu, and Jet Li is the national champion. Especially since his style of modern wushu is more geared for athleticism and show than actual fighting, he had the skills to be the most amazing screen fighter of all time. There were flashes of this in his Shaolin Temple movies, and I thought his action scenes looked absolutely fantastic in OUATIC 1. But then, they have to swing him around on wires and speed up the film in almost EVERY subsequent HK movie he made. I mean, the guy can move like nobody else--he doesn't need the cheesy enhancements. Even Fist of Legend was full of wires and undercranking. I can see where you need to do that with non martial artists like Chow Yun Fat, or Keanu Reeves, but Jet didn't need it! And, I don't hate wire-work---I loved Crouching Tiger and Hero, but you don't need wires in EVERY martial arts movie.
As far as Jackie goes, well, he's got such a classic back-catalog that I don't begrudge him for trying to do more Hollywood type things for a change. I just watched Snake in the Eagle's Shadow again recently---what an old-school classic! I would just like to see Jackie (and Jet, for that matter) to do at least a couple more classic, wire-free, period piece movies.
I thought Shanghai Noon came about the closest to mixing the best of HK and Hollywood. The production values and comedy were better than many of Chan's HK stuff, and the fight scenes were good, even if they weren't as good as his HK stuff.
I think Jet Li has been underused since the beginning of his career. Here you have a country of one billion people, the birthplace of kung fu, and Jet Li is the national champion. Especially since his style of modern wushu is more geared for athleticism and show than actual fighting, he had the skills to be the most amazing screen fighter of all time. There were flashes of this in his Shaolin Temple movies, and I thought his action scenes looked absolutely fantastic in OUATIC 1. But then, they have to swing him around on wires and speed up the film in almost EVERY subsequent HK movie he made. I mean, the guy can move like nobody else--he doesn't need the cheesy enhancements. Even Fist of Legend was full of wires and undercranking. I can see where you need to do that with non martial artists like Chow Yun Fat, or Keanu Reeves, but Jet didn't need it! And, I don't hate wire-work---I loved Crouching Tiger and Hero, but you don't need wires in EVERY martial arts movie.
As far as Jackie goes, well, he's got such a classic back-catalog that I don't begrudge him for trying to do more Hollywood type things for a change. I just watched Snake in the Eagle's Shadow again recently---what an old-school classic! I would just like to see Jackie (and Jet, for that matter) to do at least a couple more classic, wire-free, period piece movies.
09-16-03, 10:24 PM
#7
DVD Talk Hall of Fame
Originally posted by TopHatCat64
Damnit Jet Li, why didn't you take that part in Reloaded and Revolutions as Seraph
Damnit Jet Li, why didn't you take that part in Reloaded and Revolutions as Seraph
09-16-03, 10:58 PM
#8
DVD Talk Gold Edition
Join Date: Oct 1999
Posts: 2,515
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Doesn't anybody remember that Jet & Jackie were making lousy movies just before they left HK? Hitman? Police Story 4? Nice Guy? Once Upon a Time in China & America? All quite lame. As far as I'm concerned, Hollywood came calling at the right time and allowed them to try different things.
Shanghai Knights & Noon are just solid, all-round entertaining movies. They were better than anything Jackie had done in a long, long time. I don't mind Rush Hour 2 either.
Jet Li's films usually have a crap load of potential (Kiss of the Dragon was so close to greatness) and at least one fight each from The One & KOD were amazing. I think Jet's performance at the evil Yu Law in The One was also fantastically entertaining and it's something he would probably never have done in HK.
I also think their success here (especially Jackie's) has affected movie trends and maybe society at large. The huge martial arts trend, the sudden acceptance of big studio pictures with no white leads at all, the first genuine Asian Hollywood superstar, Jackie's cartoon, etc. I really wonder if these things will affect American society in the long run.. I feel they already have in small ways that I've seen. But perhaps this is a discussion for another time & place so I'll shut up about it.
Bottomline, I'm glad they made the move to Hollywood and I don't think the films they've made are all that bad.
Shanghai Knights & Noon are just solid, all-round entertaining movies. They were better than anything Jackie had done in a long, long time. I don't mind Rush Hour 2 either.
Jet Li's films usually have a crap load of potential (Kiss of the Dragon was so close to greatness) and at least one fight each from The One & KOD were amazing. I think Jet's performance at the evil Yu Law in The One was also fantastically entertaining and it's something he would probably never have done in HK.
I also think their success here (especially Jackie's) has affected movie trends and maybe society at large. The huge martial arts trend, the sudden acceptance of big studio pictures with no white leads at all, the first genuine Asian Hollywood superstar, Jackie's cartoon, etc. I really wonder if these things will affect American society in the long run.. I feel they already have in small ways that I've seen. But perhaps this is a discussion for another time & place so I'll shut up about it.
Bottomline, I'm glad they made the move to Hollywood and I don't think the films they've made are all that bad.
09-17-03, 01:44 AM
#9
Suspended; also need updated email
Thread Starter
Remember that Jackie's first vehicle in Hollywood was the Battlecreek Brawl aka the Big brawl when he was quite young but he was so misused and patronised, it put him off Hollywood for ages!
Then came the Protector, again more misuse
Some of the physical stunts and fights that Jackie has done in his film career are beyond mindboogling
Jet's US films have mostly targetted the brainless Gen X audience with its comic rap co stars, babes and tight but sloppy editing
I also would love to see Jackie direct and co star with Jet, through in Donnie Yen, Sammo Hung and Yuen Baio for nostalgia and a good female fighting co star
Then came the Protector, again more misuse
Some of the physical stunts and fights that Jackie has done in his film career are beyond mindboogling
Jet's US films have mostly targetted the brainless Gen X audience with its comic rap co stars, babes and tight but sloppy editing
I also would love to see Jackie direct and co star with Jet, through in Donnie Yen, Sammo Hung and Yuen Baio for nostalgia and a good female fighting co star
09-17-03, 03:38 AM
#10
DVD Talk Special Edition
Join Date: Jun 1999
Location: El Monte, CA
Posts: 1,201
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I like Jackie Chan, I think he's quite charismatic and a great actor. Many think he's not a great actor because they don't understand what he's saying. I don't think of it that way. His body language and facial expressions always seem genuine or comical depending on the situation, reminiscent of old silent film actors. He's also a very original choreographer and stuntman. And who uses props as well as him?
Jet Li on the other hand, I appreciate his skillfulness, but is a less talented actor. He has very little charisma, and his fights are always choreographed by someone else. And his film choices so far in America have been poor, although I enjoyed LW4, and to lesser extent KOD and RMD. I think RMD was an okay choice for him to be put into the mainstream, but he should have went another direction after that. That is not to say Jackie Chan hasn't made poor choices. His interests in working with special effects have led him into doing poor films.
Both of these actors are getting old, being under Hollywood productions their stunts are limited for their safety, and I guess the sudden flood of kung fu in movies have dimished people's interests in them.
Jet Li on the other hand, I appreciate his skillfulness, but is a less talented actor. He has very little charisma, and his fights are always choreographed by someone else. And his film choices so far in America have been poor, although I enjoyed LW4, and to lesser extent KOD and RMD. I think RMD was an okay choice for him to be put into the mainstream, but he should have went another direction after that. That is not to say Jackie Chan hasn't made poor choices. His interests in working with special effects have led him into doing poor films.
Both of these actors are getting old, being under Hollywood productions their stunts are limited for their safety, and I guess the sudden flood of kung fu in movies have dimished people's interests in them.
09-17-03, 04:42 PM
#12
DVD Talk Special Edition
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Jakarta, INA
Posts: 1,958
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Jackie Chan...
oh boy, what a poor guy. he strugled so hard to be in Hollywood for many years.. now he's here & the demand for him is REALLY high... but instead he produces shity movies rather than good movies
i feel bad for him somtime, i mean c'mon this is the guy who came up from low budget movie industry (well, almost all of HK older movie industry are low budget) then trying so hard to please his new Hollywood glamour fans....
i really don't who's to blame... jackie or the studio who don't give him 100% trust in his own work... i mean, if an american studio decided to let him make his own "old style" movie with his own crew or whatever, the result might not the too bad....
but then again, Jackie might not know too much about American audience's expectation.... so, it's a very tough-tough situation
Jet Li... i can't really say much about him. he's a good martial art dude, but yes he rely too much on wire work. it works on so called "fantasy" film like Once Upon A Time In China & so on... but what's with the wire works on his recent "Rap-Fu" (rap-kung fu) movies? i mean have you ever seen anybody fly 10 feets high just to kick someone in real life??
yes, he picked bad to awful movies... the one that i can swallow is "The One"... other than that i just spit 'em back to the ground
Jet Li is in different league than Jackie... Jackie rely on his funny-comedic charisma... just like Charlie Chaplin. but he can also do dramatic scene here & there... but with his english, i'd agree that he stay with comedic situation (less talking more action/funny)
Jet was GREAT in Lethal Weapon 4.... c'mon he can finally be a confincing bad guy... have seen Jackie Chan being a bad guy before? it's a drastic choice for Li, but a VERy good one. it shows that he got potential for "many faces"....
i dunno, i'm just rambling here...
both are good martial artist/actors.... with not-so good choice of movie projects lately
i wonder if Bruce Lee would suffer the same fate if he still here with us today....
oh boy, what a poor guy. he strugled so hard to be in Hollywood for many years.. now he's here & the demand for him is REALLY high... but instead he produces shity movies rather than good movies
i feel bad for him somtime, i mean c'mon this is the guy who came up from low budget movie industry (well, almost all of HK older movie industry are low budget) then trying so hard to please his new Hollywood glamour fans....
i really don't who's to blame... jackie or the studio who don't give him 100% trust in his own work... i mean, if an american studio decided to let him make his own "old style" movie with his own crew or whatever, the result might not the too bad....
but then again, Jackie might not know too much about American audience's expectation.... so, it's a very tough-tough situation
Jet Li... i can't really say much about him. he's a good martial art dude, but yes he rely too much on wire work. it works on so called "fantasy" film like Once Upon A Time In China & so on... but what's with the wire works on his recent "Rap-Fu" (rap-kung fu) movies? i mean have you ever seen anybody fly 10 feets high just to kick someone in real life??
yes, he picked bad to awful movies... the one that i can swallow is "The One"... other than that i just spit 'em back to the ground
Jet Li is in different league than Jackie... Jackie rely on his funny-comedic charisma... just like Charlie Chaplin. but he can also do dramatic scene here & there... but with his english, i'd agree that he stay with comedic situation (less talking more action/funny)
Jet was GREAT in Lethal Weapon 4.... c'mon he can finally be a confincing bad guy... have seen Jackie Chan being a bad guy before? it's a drastic choice for Li, but a VERy good one. it shows that he got potential for "many faces"....
i dunno, i'm just rambling here...
both are good martial artist/actors.... with not-so good choice of movie projects lately
i wonder if Bruce Lee would suffer the same fate if he still here with us today....
09-17-03, 05:46 PM
#13
DVD Talk Legend
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: True North Strong & Free
Posts: 23,226
Received 2,205 Likes
on
1,508 Posts
I haven't been overly pleased with Jackie's Hollywood films so far, but I liked Shanghai Knights alot and felt that it was a step in the right direction.
Jet Li's Hollywood career path has been handled poorly so far. He has so much potential but Hollywood doesn't seem to know what to do with him. These generic "rap-fu" films are not helping him. He's had bad luck in the US since the terrible (HK produced) Tsui Hark film The Master. I really hope that things get better for him.
Jet Li's Hollywood career path has been handled poorly so far. He has so much potential but Hollywood doesn't seem to know what to do with him. These generic "rap-fu" films are not helping him. He's had bad luck in the US since the terrible (HK produced) Tsui Hark film The Master. I really hope that things get better for him.
Last edited by cultshock; 09-17-03 at 05:49 PM.
09-17-03, 06:48 PM
#14
DVD Talk Hall of Fame
Join Date: Jun 2001
Posts: 7,784
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
i love jackie chans movies here (rush hour 1/2, shanghai noon/knights) although i never would dare see a movie like the medallion, the tuxedo, etc...
jet li has made a few movies that were ok (romeo must die, the one) but i hated kiss of the dragon
i havent seen many of their early movies.
jet li has made a few movies that were ok (romeo must die, the one) but i hated kiss of the dragon
i havent seen many of their early movies.
09-25-03, 07:07 AM
#15
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Anywhere but here ..
Posts: 611
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I always love Jacky Chan. Wait .. is it "Jacky" or "Jackie"? Cause as far as I know, he is "Jacky" before his Hollywood debut. Anyway, for me he is the master of kung-fu, and still no one can replace him. His works are very detailed, he makes every difficult stunt-action seems so easy to do. He doesn't act like a super-hero who couldn't be hurt by his rivals. And he is funny. Ref: Drunken Master 2 
. Too bad Hollywood doesn't optimize his talents. I've heard some rumours that people in Hollywood are too scared to let him do his own stunts, so they give him the wire and CGI instead. Argh! Just let Jacky create his own movies as he created his Hong Kong movies. He'll be doing great. He is still great.
Jet Li is also good. But he is too stiff, in my opinion. He fights like a robot, with no emotion. He smiles awkwardly. That makes him perfect as a villain. Haven't seen any Hollywood movies starred by Jet Li that I like. All is so-so. His Hong Kong movies are better.
Now, the conclusion. Do the actors sucks in pursuing their career in Hollywood, or is it Hollywood that make them sucks?
. Too bad Hollywood doesn't optimize his talents. I've heard some rumours that people in Hollywood are too scared to let him do his own stunts, so they give him the wire and CGI instead. Argh! Just let Jacky create his own movies as he created his Hong Kong movies. He'll be doing great. He is still great.Jet Li is also good. But he is too stiff, in my opinion. He fights like a robot, with no emotion. He smiles awkwardly. That makes him perfect as a villain. Haven't seen any Hollywood movies starred by Jet Li that I like. All is so-so. His Hong Kong movies are better.
Now, the conclusion. Do the actors sucks in pursuing their career in Hollywood, or is it Hollywood that make them sucks?
09-25-03, 06:49 PM
#16
DVD Talk Ultimate Edition
I like Jackie Chan movies. He's always funny and his fighting style is just cool. I hope to see much more of Jackie Chan. Hollywood need to use him more often before he gets too old.
I saw one of Jet Li movie. I didn't care too much for it. Don't have much to say other than that.
I saw one of Jet Li movie. I didn't care too much for it. Don't have much to say other than that.
09-25-03, 11:44 PM
#17
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 926
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Couldn't the same be said for most HK stars and directors? Chow Yun Fat's hollywood movies aren't anyway near as good as his HK ones. Same goes for John Woo. In HK he gives us masterpieces like The Killer and Hard Boiled, but in the US we get Hard Target and Broken Arrow? John Woo's best US film is the less than 10 minute short he made for the BMW Hire series. That's just sad...
